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[HS93 (RIP)]

Hi Kasper,
You are absolutely correct in that you must not refill gas tanks in the boat.
I suggested using the 90 deg valve as a low cost option and it's not very difficult to soft solder a brass plate on to the gas tank with a cut out to take the servo which would allow you to take the tank out as a unit for refilling.
One of my concerns is that a new comer to steam looks on this forum for advice and it must frighten the life out of him to see the costs of all these components.
I have just checked the STUART web site and one of these valves cost £113 + V.A.T. now it may not expensive for you but not every body has that sort of cash, and goodness only knows what boiler level and gas adjusting valves cost on top of a steam plant.
I am a member of a club  www.glasgowrichmondmbc.co.uk and we have about 12 members who operate steam plants and not one of us has any of these gismos fitted and we have learned to operate our steam plants without any trouble.
It's a great learning curve to run a simple steam plant without all these extras that can go wrong, but by all means add them on if you wish but you have to remember that they are not all fail safe as has already been stated that "O" rings going over a drilled hole is a NO NO
So all that I am trying to get across, especially for new comers, is that all these extras are not necessary. 
I may not have explained myself well enough but I hope this is helpful to new comers.
George.

the gas vave alone was £38 plus vat which was the only part you where interested in.

[ooyah/2]

Thank's Peter,
I still think that all these extra parts are very expensive and not necessary for running a steam plant and it would be inclined to put a newcomer off.

 Hi KB10.
It's very encouraging to hear that you and your club are able to help youngsters and new comers with bits and pieces and help with simple steam plants.
You rightly say that we are all oldies at this game and by encouragement it will bring new blood into running steam plants.
Well done to you and all other clubs who help bring newcomers into steam .
George.

[livesteam]

Hi George
Thanks for your statement, which I completely understand. So far I used quite basic steam plants in my two live steam boats with no such extras. I do agree that they are not realy necesary. But I think the possibility to shut off gas in an emergency is not the most useless of possible extras. I might try to construct your suggested 90deg valve as I do not wallow in money neither...
Cheers!
Kasper

[livesteam]

Regner has a new and smallish r/c gas valve, with hand wheel and servo. It is being sold with the servo attached directly to it.
I couldn't find it on their website yet, but it will most likely be in their new catalogue which is due to be published any day now. I have seen it in their paper newsletter.

Found this here: http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de/aktuelles/aktuell/50810_rcgashahn.php a quite expensive one

[ooyah/2]

Hi Kasper,
The valve is a nice piece of kit can you tell me the cost of one?
What supports it? is it only the gas piping?
How does it work ? I see that it's linked up to the boiler clack valve and can it be shut down by the link into the Rx
George.

[livesteam]

Hi Kasper,
The valve is a nice piece of kit can you tell me the cost of one?
What supports it? is it only the gas piping?
How does it work ? I see that it's linked up to the boiler clack valve and can it be shut down by the link into the Rx
George.

Hello George
As far as I understand, this valve is simply assembled between gastank (I guess this is what you thought was boiler clack valve) and burner. It comes already with a Servo and should be able to control the gas flow continously. I guess it's also possible to shut-off the gas.
I also think it's a nice piece but a quite expensive one: if you order directly from Regner it's € 79.- (about £ 69.-)
Kaspar

[kno3]

@livesteam: That's exactly the valve I was talking about, thanks for finding the link.

@ooyah/2: As livesteam says, this is just a simple r/c gas flow control valve. It is does not take boiler pressure into account. The handwheel adjusts (I think) the minimum flow (like a pilot flame).

[Circlip]

Something strange about Regners Photo. If, as Kasper states, that one end is connected to a gas tank rather than a boiler clack valve, the other end is shown connected to a burner on the same container???


  Regards  Ian.

[wideawake]

Something strange about Regners Photo. If, as Kasper states, that one end is connected to a gas tank rather than a boiler clack valve, the other end is shown connected to a burner on the same container???


  Regards  Ian.

Does look a bit strange!   Is it purely a manual (servo operated) valve or is the other connection which seems to be to the boiler, a means of pressure controlling the gas flow?

Guy

[livesteam]

Something strange about Regners Photo. If, as Kasper states, that one end is connected to a gas tank rather than a boiler clack valve, the other end is shown connected to a burner on the same container???
 Regards  Ian.

It's a confusing photo indeed, but it certainly is the gastank and not the boiler that the pipe goes in on the right it's just pretty hard to see. Here you can see the arrangement gascontainer/boiler-arrangement  of another Regner-plant (without the valve though). This might make things clearer.

Just e-mail them, they respond with a price. or skype them

Peter

I just got an email from Stuart. They don't sell this valve seperatly, only with the electronic boiler control system.

[ooyah/2]

Well chaps is the queerest gas tank that I have ever seen with a water level sight glass and the burner aimed directly at the bottom of the black tank ( boiler )
If its' connected to the clack valve it will make the valve useless as there should be no pressure back feed from a clack  valve.
At approx £69 to my mind it's expensive and if it was me I would go down the road of linking a servo to the 90deg valve on the top of the fuel tank.
George.

[Circlip]

Tilt yer screen George, there are separate tanks. It's the black paint that confuses. There is a vertical line of the boiler (Note the strap) just to the right of the hand wheel C/L. Just noticed it.

 It looks like a refined version of what you suggested, a 90 deg. "globe" valve connected to a servo but with fine flow control.

  Regards  Ian.

[ooyah/2]

Yep, I see it now Ian the brass banding is a give away which at first I didn't see and that is probably a 90deg shut off valve and not a clack valve.
Regners haven't made a good job of the pic, it's a nice bit of kit if you can afford it, why not, but I still think it's an extra that a newby to steam can do without.
George.

[kno3]

You are quite right about that ooyah/2, a newcomer can do very well without it.

[Landlocked]

This newbie is confused.

Why do I want to control gas pressure with a servo when there's several pressure sensing control valves available?  I admit they're as dear as the ones discussed on this thread but not sure why I need a servo to throttle the gas.  And which channel would one use?  Flaps?

I could see an emergency shut off need but not a throttling need.  But then, how would I know from the pier that I needed to shut it off remotely?  If I could see the fire from that far away, I would rather steam to the pier and douse it than kill the gas and hope it doesn't burn through before I can get to it.  Not all ponds have a "ready" rescue boat.

And who in their right mind put the gas tank that close to the boiler? 

Landlocked

 

[livesteam]

Hi Landlocked

Such an emergency could be: your model get stucked on the pond (for instance because of some weed blocking your prop or whatever reason). If you are not able to rescue your model within a short time, there is a risk of a very serious boiler damage as soon as all the water has been gone trough the safety valve...
The gas tank should be close to the boiler to avoid a freezing valve.

Regards
Kaspar

[Landlocked]

Let's see if I can summarize my understanding (I have my engine (TVR1A) and Boiler (MacSteam 3 1/2 inch)) as I try design my piping and fittings -- as you can see from my photo, I'm crossing over from the sailing world).

The main stream of this thread is about externally shutting off the gas, not throttling it (Regner valve not withstanding).

One needs two functions between the gas tank and the boiler:  1)  A gas flow control (usually using steam pressure as a control signal) and 2) a gas cut off function.

Most gas control valves seem to have a pilot light function so you need a gas cut off function as well (fouled prop scenario is a good one).

Some high end control valve feature a low steam pressure trip so you may not need a separate cut off function but then you have to add a separate parallel start up piping path (unless you go very high end).

The gas cutoff valve function seems to lack suppliers. 

Am I about right?

Landlocked

[derekwarner]

Guys....many valid points have been raised here ...& somtimes I question why certain components are manufactured & marketed 

When we consider we are thinking about possibility, not probability but yes we do include insurance....for my money I chose a single ANTON V71 gas regulator

1. it is designed to be be piloted for gas pressure [+....-] by boiler pressure
2. when the desired boiler pressure is achieved the regulator function restricts/lowers gas pressure to reduce to a pilot flame which is not of sufficient heat or energy to steam & therfore the boiler safety valve will not open

So what happens if my vessel is stuck in weeds & cannot move?...= nothing & no danger of the boiler running dry ....maybe I go swimming 

The Regner RC servo controlled gas isolation valve looks a good build....and typical of their components .......however I would appreciete if someone could explain the real functionality .....Derek

[livesteam]

2. when the desired boiler pressure is achieved the regulator function restricts/lowers gas pressure to reduce to a pilot flame which is not of sufficient heat or energy to steam & therfore the boiler safety valve will not open

So what happens if my vessel is stuck in weeds & cannot move?...= nothing & no danger of the boiler running dry ....maybe I go swimming 

You are right Derek! But there is still the possibility of running out of water (because we forget time while sailing  ) this might not happen too often so it probably won't legitimate the installation of a shut off valve. Another problem that could turn up is an extinguish fire but ongoing gasflow. This could be a problem especially in a closed hull... But I admit that al these cases are very seldom, so everybody has to decide oneself how much he thinks is essential to invest in safety. It's somehow tha same as with an insurcance.
Cheers
Kaspar

[KBIO]

Hello!
The only reason why I install an "emergency cut off" valve is because , if my boat goes on fire for any reason, it may be difficult to shut off manually the valve on the gas tank. This can be due to the difficult access of the valve or simply because when the boat is on fire, the fire stands close to the burner , regulator,gas tank,.... and you wouldn't put your hand in it.
A click on the transmitter controlled switch saves you from burning yourself and you gain precious minutes in controlling the fire.
If it happens far from the bank. Cutting off the gas supply will naturally extinguish the fire if you react soon enough before the entire boat is burning wood or fiber glass. Without this valve, you better swim fast.
Also, when I've finish sailing , I cut off the gas and leave steam pressure bleeding off before to grap my boat. I sometime let it cooling down in the water. I'm a bit lazy!
But this is true also, that there is several sorts of people in our hobby: those (like me) who find any pretext to install scaps inside his boats, and those who think that the minimum is the better.
Both attitudes are respectable and makes this steam business exciting , it allows to share experience and friendship with people around the world.
Regards.

[livesteam]

But this is true also, that there is several sorts of people in our hobby: those (like me) who find any pretext to install scaps inside his boats, and those who think that the minimum is the better.
Both attitudes are respectable and makes this steam business exciting , it allows to share experience and friendship with people around the world.
Regards.

I completely agree 

[kiwimodeller]

Greetings all, an interesting discussion. I had an email today from Jerry at Clevedon Steam to say that they will have a valve available in a couple of weeks. It will be suitable for gas control or as a steam throttle and will have fittings for either 1/8" or 5/32" pipe. I have not seen a photo but when available it will be listed on their eBay shop http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Clevedon-Steam. Cheers, Ian

[ooyah/2]

Landlocked ,
I am not surprised that you are confused, may I suggest that as you have an engine and a boiler that you try and get a steam control valve that will allow you to install it in the steam line from the boiler to the engine which will give you speed control.
Your engine as far as I am aware from previous discussions here that speed can't be controlled by the Hackworth gear and can only be used for forward and reverse.

I have said many times here that all the Gizmos of gas control and boiler control are not necessary for a new comer, by all means when you get familiar with running a steam plant then you can go for all the add ons.

All this about boilers going on fire is nonsense and will only happen if you are careless and allow your boat to get caught in weeds or if you have an open flame burner that can set wood lagging alight.
I have been sailing model steam boats for the last 15 years and to date I have only witnessed one fire in a boat and that was caused by the wood lagging in a Cheddar return flue boiler which had the wood lagging glued directly to the boiler without and insulation between the wood and the boiler shell with the wood becoming charred by the open flame burner and the owner ignoring it, it was an accident awaiting to happen.
This was a case of the owner not paying enough attention to his plant.

I assume that your Maccsteam boiler has a ceramic burner so you will have no danger of the plant going on fire.

Please don't get bogged down with all the " must haves " and go and learn and enjoy your steam plant.
George.

[Canopus]

I have a model battleship, Canopus, which uses a Cheddar modles Puffin unit. In the early days when I was learning the boiler ran out of water in the middle of the lake but unfortunatley the burner still had gas! The boiler heated up until the wooden lagging caught fire and turned into charcol and black smoke came out of the funnels. Whilst this was realistic it was obvious something was wrong and I had to go in and get the model or risk a total loss. It was cold as it was on 5th November, somewhat appropriate I thought!

The model was saved and suffered very little damage and other than an engine room skylight which was melting and just about to burn when I reached the model there was very little harm done. I pushed the model to the shore took the top off and turned the burner off. I then did absolutly nothing and let the bolier cool down which took over 40 mins! I called Cheddar fearing a total loss to the bolier and the response I got was that there is not enough heat in one blow lamp to un silver solder a boiler with that mass and all should be fine. Cheddar boilers are very very tough!

This happened about 6 years ago and the boiler has been fine but to prevent a similar problem I hooked up a small electric windscreen washer pump to a servo such than in an emergency it will spray a jet of water onto the burner. This works every time and a small puff of steam comes out the funnel and it always puts the burner out. The down side is that the boat then fills with gas (which vents out of the superstructure) but after a quick blow through the gas is blown out and all is safe again.

This is a cheap and reliable system, for use in emergency only, but that's when you need it!!

My belief is the concentration of gas within the hull is insufficient to be ignited by an outsider even if they are smoking and I always check when filling the gas tank or if I have used the emergency off for smokers. Never had a problem in over 6 years with this method.

[ooyah/2]

Hi Canopus,
That could have been a very costly mistake on your part in not keeping your eye on the boiler level, I'll bet that you keep a check on it now. Also I would never lag a boiler with timber directly to the boiler shell although many do, I would insulate it with ceramic wool before putting on the timber and make sure that the timber is well away from the direct heat of the burner.

Silver solder requires 25% more heat than the heat applied to solder in the first place so it's impossible to apply enough heat with the burners that we use to unsolder a S/soldered copper boiler, though no doubt I will be informed by some body who knows of some bodies boiler that melted.

Must say that's a good idea to extinguish the burner. and inexpensive.

I spoke to my friend today who has the servo linked to the 90 deg valve on the top of the gas tank which is removable with the tank.
He cut a piece of Ali plate with a hole cut for the servo in the shape of a TEE he folded the plate at the TEE joint which left 2- tags , 1- each side of the plate,
He holds it to the gas tank with 2- boiler bands, very effective and cheap to make.

Thank's for sharing.
George.