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[livesteam]

Hi there!
I have a Regner Premium engine in my Glasgow Paddle tug. The "engine room" is very tight, so I had to put the gastank very close (some 5mm) to the boiler. After a few minutes I realised that it's getting quite qarm which is good, because of a freezing valve. But: could it get too warm just from boiler heat radiation? Same thing with my Forest classics boiler pressure regulator: due to lack of space I had to put it on the boiler (which is lagged with wood there). Again it was getting quite warm and I thought it didn't work properly after a few minutes. But then, in the last MB issue was a picture of the very same valve also mounted on the boiler. Might I face problems with this arrangement?

Thanks!
Kaspar

[derekwarner]

Hullo Livesteam.......you may have a few issues with a poorly ventilated construction enclosure with your Glasgow

1. the endplate of the boiler will reach say 120 degrees C during normal operation....it is good to impart some radiant heat to the gas tank...[in cooler ambient temperatures] ...however I suspect you may need to install a radiant barricade between the boiler & the gas tank........

2. the diaphram material in your gas regulator is neoprene ...this material is OK for say 85 degrees C constant temperature .....

3. the only sure fire method of determining the actual positional operating temperature of your Forrest Classic gas regulator is to borrow a digital pyrometer & check & record the operating temperature of both components

4. a pressure gauge is the only relaible method in determining the gas pressure increase in your gas tank relative to the heat inoput from the boiler

Do remember the Boyles & Charles combined gas equation? ........ ....Derek

[livesteam]

Thanks Derek! I am not surprised... 
Radiant barricade between boiler and gastank shouldn't be a big deal, although I am not sure about the material yet. Different situation for the attenuator: There is most probably not enough space to fit it on somewhere else... Guess I will have to leave it out. But still: could this gas regulator be fitted in any position or has it to be upright? There is nothing written in the manual about this.
Cheers, Kaspar

[derekwarner]

livesteam.....the Forrest Classic gas regulator simply relies on differential pressure from the boiler pressure as the pilot against the gas pressure/flow

So changing the orientation in any direction should not alter the function 

With respect to the Radiant barricade ......a 1 mm thick aluminium plate that covers the true viewing line of site to the boiler endplate....& epoxy left over boiler lagging strips......would compliment the visual of the boiler ....Derek

[derekwarner]

livesteam....just thinking...  ...it would be a great waste not to use the Forrest classic gas regulator.....  ...and for a small cost of say 300 mm of 3 mm diameter copper tube + a few additional fittings you could utilize a cooler location

On the STDB side of your engine....opposite side to the lubricator/oiler....the image suggests you have more than sufficient space to relocate the Forrest classic gas regulator & eliminate all heat issues

Would just need that tubing + a few tube fittings & a little perseverance from you....I am sure you would be much happier with the regulator installed as it will save gas & maximise your steaming times.......Derek 

[KBIO]

Hello Livesteam!
I personally think that your gas tank is well located as it gets heat from the boiler. As Derek , I would suggest to use a monometer and check the real pressure in your gas tank after a while. If there is too much, i would insulate the back of the boiler = keep the calories inside the boiler + cooler gas tank ==> good in summertime.
JMC's has the tank touching the boiler = this is dangerous as too much heat toward the gas tank . I move the boiler ahead and I insulate with plywood. Wood does not conduct heat.
Concerning the regulator, I would put it the other way round: it will be easier to calibrate it and it would avoid H2O to stay inside the top line and on the membrane when you store it.
Last. Do not worry for the freezing of the tank, this is just dew : outside condensation of the water in the air. Same as on your windows during winter time. This dew brings calories inside your tank , in fact, as the temp is higher than the temp of liquid gas. And if you tank freezes , it means that it is not warm.
I like this Regner installation, it complete and works real fine. I have a Regner Junior engine that runs and runs with no sign of tireness!
Next, you show us the boat!
Have a good day.
I hope i make myself understand

[livesteam]

Derek,

it would be a great waste not to use the Forrest classic gas regulator..... 

That's right, although I could use it for an other project later 

On the STDB side of your engine....opposite side to the lubricator/oiler....the image suggests you have more than sufficient space to relocate the Forrest classic gas regulator & eliminate all heat issues
Would just need that tubing + a few tube fittings & a little perseverance from you....I am sure you would be much happier with the regulator installed as it will save gas & maximise your steaming times.......Derek 

Thanks for the words of motivation, will think about it. 

[livesteam]

I hope i make myself understand

Hello KBIO
You made yourself understand very well, thank you! On peu parle en Français aussi, parce que en Suisse nous some bilingue But would not fair for the other user  
Have a good day too!  

PS: Compared to Anton engines, I think Regner uses a bit less high quality materials. But it's just my subjective impression. I am realy thinking about buying a Jade or Cristal... I particularly the fact, that Jade is made with lot of steel. Gives it a very good look! I  Already have a Quartz which is excellent quality  

[KBIO]

Good evening!
Very nice boat. Net! Swiss made!
I would not compare Regner & Anton , as Regner sells affordable kits and Anton, ready to run , wonderful pieces of mechanic.
I am not sure , but I think that Anton does not do the Cristal anymore. (If the Cristal is 3 cy)l. He does not do the Saphir either; (oscillating). According to what I've heard, everybody ask for the Jade, so if you want something else, you better do fast.
Have a good night!

[livesteam]

Bon soir KBIO! Thank you!

I am not sure , but I think that Anton does not do the Cristal anymore. He does not do the Saphir either; (oscillating). According to what I've heard, everybody ask for the Jade, so if you want something else, you better do fast.

Oh this would be a pitty! On his website there are still all the engins listet (besides the Amethyst, but this beautiful piece has been far above my budget anyway...  

Ragards
Kaspar

[kno3]

@Livesteam: I have the same regulator and a similar gas tank very close to the boiler in one of my steam plants, and it seemed to work without any problems. Should you observe that the gas tank gets too much heat from the boiler, you can always add a sheet of insulation between them, such as the silver temperature insulation tape used by r/c car guys.

[livesteam]

Thanks guys!
I will place the lubricator to another position and put the regulator valve at the former lubricator place instead.
I will also put some sort of radiation barricade between boiler and gastank. Will post pictures as soon as work will be done.

[kno3]

Here's how I have placed the gas tank and regulator:

2009-10-11 011 by -kno3-, on Flickr

[livesteam]

well kno3, that IS a very compact arrangement! Is this a Cheddar Pelican?

[kno3]

Yes the engine is a Cheddar Pelican. The boiler is a Cheddar Pipit, and the other parts are Niggel, Regner and self-made.. Compactness was indeed goal nr. 1 when I have built it and it fits in a 60 cm boat without any probles, except weight: the hull has to be beefy because cheddar boilers weigh a ton 

[livesteam]

I have a similar arrangement in my Anna: also with pipit boiler, but Pintail engine. Gives a running time from approx. 25minutes. Must be considerably shorter with the Pelican?

[kno3]

Well, of course, the Pelican uses lots of steam so the run time would be very short - 10 minutes maybe. That's the reason I am using a water pump, this increases the run time to as long as the gas lasts (with my current tank about 30 minutes). The good thing is that my combination of Pipit boiler with the very large custom ceramic burner can produce a lot of steam and keeps the Pelican engine turning at good speed, even with the pump working.

[KBIO]

Helo KNO3!
Very nice and compact set up which makes the thing easier for maintenance by pulling out the complete assy.
Although the oiler (Niggel if I am not wrong) is beautiful, I wonder if it is really necessary to have such a big one compared to the engine cc's & running time.
I use this kind of oiler on D10 & other big engines. Next time, I shall ask Niggel to think of building smaller ones for 5/7 cc engines. 1/2 size would be plenty enough for me.
What you think??
Have a nice week end!

[kno3]

Yes, you are right that such a large oiler isn't really necessary. The oil lasts very long here. I have spoken to Niggel about building a smaller one too, and he might if I draw up a plan. But he has the glass tube only in that size not shorter. Haven't gotten round to drawing the plan so far.

[benjaml1]

Been struggling with reduced gas pressure due to a cold environment, after much though/advise & deliberations. I had a brainwave & was thinking of wrapping one of those disposable chemical heat/hand warmers around my disposable gas tank.. Not sure if the cold tank would stop the thermal process but going to give it a try on next outing... After some experimentation of course...

[steamboatmodel]

Primus used to sell a Heat Pad that fit on the bottom of the canisters. It contained sodium acetate like the hand warmers. It made the stoves usable in the winter.
Regards,
Gerald.

[benjaml1]

Ahaaa!...Thank you Gerald. 

[john s 2]

Most sports shops sell gell filled reusable pads used as handwarmers. To charge them put in hot water. When
ready to use flex and they heat up Good luck john.

[benjaml1]

Thank you both, the easy way is normally the best way to go, with caveats of course...

[derekwarner]

benjaml1 ...I have seen in a number of French model marine WEB sites where engine exhaust steam is looped around the gas tank to provided heat input to the gas tank

Here is a very grainy image of an example........I am sure Bernhard has also shown similar examples in his superbly detailed open steam launches .......Derek