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Author Topic: "slating manufacturers"  (Read 10427 times)

baloo

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"slating manufacturers"
« on: September 02, 2011, 07:32:28 pm »

 Sorry if this is a bit long winded but,I find it quite unfair to slate different manufacturers proucts/kits/moulds etc,i was reading a "chit-chat" section ref deans marine.The comments made were i think out of order.Markjames1968 only asked about what kit do you think!!, and someone  start slating off a manufacturer,and me personally am no expert,i build the kit i brought and if i loose my rag with the kit,i "STOP".Go back to the kit at a later time and carry on.,i have my own views and dont say things like i was treated badly and will never buy another kit from this manufacturer again.I have been to shows and people have said i could do better,well then go ahead.I`m no expert builder, and i build it to the best of my ability,people do not realise how much time & effort goes into making different models and how much money goes into manufacturing an item.I will go to shows and if people want to slate my boats off then do it,i dont care, but as colind has said, it is not the manufacturer it is down to the" BUILDER"so instead of slating manufacturer`s products,you spend the amount of time & money they put into building kits for people like us so we can enjoy our hobby.Half of us haven`t got that kind of cash laying about,so if you dont like something from this manufacturer then go somewhere else.So stop slating manufacturers off, because you cant fix the problem. Baloo

 
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andyn

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2011, 07:58:09 pm »

Good point, very well made.

If you do have a problem with any product at all the first thing to do is try to rectify the problem with the manufacturer or supplier. If after talking to the companies owner or manager they still refuse to refund/ replace then it's the time to come on a forum and cast an opinion....

You do have the right to replacements from manufacturers if the items supplied are faulty.

We had a bloke the other day bought one of our LA subs, who doesn't really have a clue what to do with it. So far I've spent an hour and a half ish on the phone to him explaining what he needs.

Like it says on our local Chinese takeaway menu, if you like it tell your friends, if you don't tell us ;)

Andy :-)
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2011, 08:04:01 pm »


 As a friend of a friend once said, "
"I can't understand these instructions, they must be rubbish!"

...and something about a bad workman blames his tools!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2011, 08:10:19 pm »

I don't think I would really agree with that Baloo.

There are a lot of kits out there and quite a few manufacturers.

The degree of difficulty varies between manufacturers and that is fair enough. You do need a higher skill level to tackle one of the various models of Nelson's Victory than, say, a tug kit which is advertised as being entry level. That is because different manufacturers cater to different areas of the market in their ranges and it is up to the prospective buyer to do a bit of homework and get some advice on what might be suitable for their particular skill level. If you bite off more than you can chew then you are indeed likely to find things heavy going. A common fault is for purchasers to overestimate what they are capable of and be disappointed as a result.

An entirely separate issue is kit quality. If you lay out several hundred pounds then you are entitled to expect a reasonable level of quality control. Instructions should be clear and accurate. If two parts are supposed to fit together then they should do just that. If the kit includes white metal fittings then they should be sharply defined, needing just a bit of minor fettling rather than being simply a piece of unrecognisable s.l.a.g. (It's all to do with getting the right alloy combination which allows fine detail to be shown without suffering from shrinkage cooling). Manufacturers should screen fittings for quality before putting them into the box.

Plans should be accurate and preferably full size although some manufacturers are reluctant to produce  plans which could be ripped off and resold on EBay and you can't really blame them.

GRP hulls should be to a good standard of finish and symmetrical but you do have to allow for the fact that they may distort slightly when removed from the mould although this can usually be corrected with a bit of attention from a hair dryer providing that the deck which is supposed to fit into the top of the hull is itself accurate.

Kit manufacturers do have to make some compromises to produce a commercially viable offering. This might include increasing the beam or draught over true scale to ensure that the model will perform satisfactorily on the pond, usually without significant effect on the visual appearance of the model. If you want 100% scale accuracy then scratch build it yourself and accept the challenges that brings.

Purchasers should be prepared to read, digest and understand the instructions before reaching for the knife and glue. Many don't. A model boat kit is not a flat screen TV which you just take out of the box and plug in to the nearest socket. It requires some thought and understanding before launching into the construction process.

So there are implicit obligations on both sides to the transaction and comments on whether one manufacturer is 'better' than another should be made with that in mind and on a purely factual basis.

My experience is that quality can vary, not just between manufacturers but within the range of an individual manufacturer. Some modellers can accommodate these variations better than others which explains some of the recent comments made on the Forum.

Colin
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DickyD

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2011, 09:11:51 pm »

I knew I would agree with you one day Colin, well said.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2011, 11:04:02 pm »

I knew I would agree with you one day Colin, well said.

Agree.

Its the frustration at getting the run around and not getting anywhere, that causes people to vent their discontent on this forum.

After all, commonsense tells me that they have a legitimate "beef" and just want it fixed. O0 O0 O0 O0
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bikerdude666

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2011, 01:05:30 am »

I agree you should try to sort problems wih the manufacturer/seller first, however...
but as colind has said, it is not the manufacturer it is down to the" BUILDER"so instead of slating manufacturer`s products,

Where do you stop with that train of thought, if you let kit manufacturers sell good that basically aren't fit for purpose, where do you stop? You wouldn't buy a car where the doors didn't fit, or if you turned up and the three were flat you'd be pretty pi$$ed wouldn't you?

Surely the idea of buying a kit is that you dot have to make bits, if you want to put  that much effort into it surely you'd do a scratch build?

I'm saying this as someone who hasn't bought a deans kit or any other for that matter, and as someone who modelling skills are really not up to much, I accept my models will never be masterpieces.
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2011, 01:37:32 am »

I agree you should try to sort problems wih the manufacturer/seller first, however...
Where do you stop with that train of thought, if you let kit manufacturers sell good that basically aren't fit for purpose, where do you stop? You wouldn't buy a car where the doors didn't fit, or if you turned up and the three were flat you'd be pretty pi$$ed wouldn't you?

Surely the idea of buying a kit is that you dot have to make bits, if you want to put  that much effort into it surely you'd do a scratch build?

I'm saying this as someone who hasn't bought a deans kit or any other for that matter, and as someone who modelling skills are really not up to much, I accept my models will never be masterpieces.

I take it you have never built a kit car then ?

If you buy a car from a show room yes the doors should fit , but we are talking about kits I for one don't build many kits But i have some to build now and as long as the materials are good and they have not been cut to short and the plans are ok then you have a kit it is when you have to start replacing large proportions of the kit then it is not right.
I also think some people have built Airfix type kits  when they where young then go out and but a model boat *KIT*  and find it needs a different set of skills, I think it might be an idea to start calling them something other than *Boat Kit*  like boat Package, I think the reason why  you get so many un built kits these days on ebay is because it has always been the same , buy a kit open it get frightend off and put in loft,
I for one like the problem solving, it makes the build more interesting as it is me versus the kit.

peter
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bikerdude666

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 02:23:35 am »

It is replacing large portions of the kit I mean was wrong, as with anything it's hard to describe exactly what's acceptable and what's not, it's the comments that if a model turns out badly it MUST be the modellers fault that gets me going, not everyone builds museum pieces, but people seem to think it couldn't possibly the manufacturers fault, I'm sure there are both good and bad incidents with customer service and kit quality. I've had 2 extremes of service from my loam buell dealer, from incredibly helpful and exceptional service to absolute crap, rude didn't want to know a thing.

2 sides to all companies, it's not always the manufacturers fault (I'm sure they could send me a perfect kit and Id still mess I up) but you can't generalise and say it's all the modellers fault either. As for a kit car, no, my dad has and you can see the bodywork isn't symetrical, I have however built a bike...
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tt1

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2011, 02:58:58 am »

I think Colin's perception is very reasonable -  well versed, accurately put, and without bias. 
      We are all entitled to opinion and often see things differently, a bit like backsides really, we've all got one -  some exude aroma different to others, but how offending the smell is, is down to opinion!
        I have a Dean's kit that has been put on hold through lack of experience, I'm very much a novice and have found some of the plans/diagrams and certainly the instructions both a tad misleading, and not easy to understand, but I really like the finished model and am determined to do it justice.
       Some of the white metal parts are awful and serve only as as guide to scratch building replacements, even the photos on the available cd are baffling in as much they include varied changes during the prototype stages,  with no indication of which photo defines the accepted final assembly method . They are certainly NOT kits for a novice, but do offer a fantastic range of model that no other manufacturer produces, always found them to be as friendly and helpful over the phone as you would expect, yet when parting with cash you are fully entitled without question, to receive items as described and fit for purpose and  that can be assembled without rework or modification needed to overcome inherent defects. We have been a 'self assembly flat pack' society for some time now.
       Perhaps the vast range of models may be Dean's Achilles heel, perhaps too much time and cost into constant development of new models, without the infrastructure or finance for ensuring total quality component production and proven user friendly script.

         Somethings are learned the hard way - I'll do it for the experience and the challenge, it should make a really nice model, time will tell!
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Nige52

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 08:36:12 am »

I fully agree with Colin, a nice balanced view  :-))
But when buying goods from a shop or manufacturer, they should be fit for purpose, they should be of a quality you expect. Regardless of whether you're an expert scratch builder, or a novice kit builder, you should receive in the box exactly what you expect to be in there. You shouldn't have mis-matched parts, shoddy fittings, unreadable or undecipherable plans and instructions, 2 halves of a hull that blatantly don't fit together without major surgery.
If the kit manufacturers can't be bothered to quality control their products and make sure the buyer is happy with the product, they deserve bad publicity in my opinion, not to mention the loss of future trade......
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john44

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 08:47:29 am »

I think if people feel justified to slate manufacturers they will, just to get whatever is bothering them of their chest.
But as an avid modeler who builds from kits,also scratch builds I think it a bit unfair sometimes as regards white metal fittings etc.
If the supplier had to 100% check every item the cost of the model would go up, and most would replace unusable parts anyway
regarding ( new models ) to the manufacturers lists.
I think they have got to introduce new models for the up and coming club members & boat enthusiasts who want something
different than the same old same old. they need to anyway to be competitive.  
Without them some people would never have a boat to sail.  

john
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2011, 09:38:52 am »

John,

Disagree.

Nige has got it right.

Think about it.

There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(
Their philosophy is send them all out the way they are, if there is anything wrong the customer will bring it back or let you know. >>:-(
That way you only replace those that scream the loudest, huge savings and bigger profits as less overheads, no inspectors etc etc.
The customer is now the quality Inspector. <:( <:(
Bottom line those who accept these second rate standards lower the quality standards for all. O0 O0

So to use the topic title, keep "slating manufacturers" and hopefully they will lift their game.
After all it is your money.
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2011, 09:58:26 am »

John,

Disagree.

Nige has got it right.

Think about it.

There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(
Their philosophy is send them all out the way they are, if there is anything wrong the customer will bring it back or let you know. >>:-(
That way you only replace those that scream the loudest, huge savings and bigger profits as less overheads, no inspectors etc etc.
The customer is now the quality Inspector. <:( <:(
Bottom line those who accept these second rate standards lower the quality standards for all. O0 O0

So to use the topic title, keep "slating manufacturers" and hopefully they will lift their game.
After all it is your money.

How do you get Bean Counters in a one man Business ?

PETER
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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2011, 11:35:01 am »

Peter, Who's the one man business? certainly not Dean's.

                                            Tony.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2011, 12:26:23 pm »

I have the greatest respect for manufacturers who design and build a product, then put it out there for all to examine, we have been making a mold for one of our square rigged sailing ships over the last six weeks and have yet to produce a single decent hull out of it! We would be happy to apply a bit of filler to the hull to rectify the problem, however, a manufacturer cannot afford to let something like this through their quality control.
I do not know for sure, but I would expect kit production in this day and age to be fairly low production runs, in the case of Deans Marine they have a large number of kits in production, while Precedent, for example have two versions of two models only. A kit will make a decent replica of the original with work, technology is catching up in the hobby, but do we want a model that drops out of the box, screws together and is in the water in a weekend or do we want a 'project'. There is room on the market for both, and both are available, you pays your money and takes your choice.
I used to be driven by feedback from my customers regarding which models to stock,which ones did not result in moans and groans. sadly this resulted in being SO selective in the models stocked, I was afraid to put anything on the shelf. Only goes to prove the old adage "The customer is always right" or maybe not.....
Try scratchbuilding, any cockups, please refer to the builder :-)
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Philipsparker

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2011, 03:36:52 pm »

There was a time when all manufactures checked and tested their product before selling and returns were unheard off. There was pride in the product. O0 O0
Then the bean counters got involved. <:( <:(

And about the same time, the customers started to expect miracles for no money. How many people REALLY are happy to pay more for a better quality item ? And I mean would put thier money where there mouth is, not just say they would and do something different.

An example: There is a thread running elsewhere on this forum about the partwork for HMS Hood. Having seen the Bismark kit (My Dad is building it), the parts are generally very good but more importantly, the instructions are very detailed. The downside is that this kit costs a lot of money. It has too, someone had to build the kit and photograph every stage. Yet every boat kit I've built has come at best with a few sheets of paper with some drawings and dense text. The best was the Metcalf mouldings River Star and even that set wouldn't have come close the Bismark set.

In the model railway world, there have been people throwing tantrums for years about the quality of trains for sale. Now the quality has improved imesurably and they are all complaining that the cost has gone up.

Yes there are duff kits and duff bits in kits but none of the things we buy are high volume products. The people who make them are often small businesses. If there is something wrong then the first stop (IMHO) should be the manufacturer who more often then not will put it right. No-one should rant on this, or any other forum, until they have at least given the guy a chance to make good. In my experience, none of the kit makers want to produce a bad product. They actually love what they do and want to see thier kits on the water, yet many talk as though they were evil businesses only out to make a quick buck. If they were the case I think they would be in a slightly more lucrative field !

Builders often expect a kit to be easier to build than they think. None of our models go together as well as an Airfix Spitfire yet that's the level many modellers struggle with. The cost of a fully injection moulded battleship kit doesn't bear thinking about though. Deans Marine tell some hillarious tales about some of the questions they receive. One guy filled the bottom of his boat with concrete because the instructions said to cement the parts together !

At the end of the day, we can vote with our wallets. If you don't like soemthing, don't buy it. That's a good reason to go and collect your kits, or at least have a good look in the box at a show. Perhaps even talk to people who have built the kit you are looking at, not people who haven't. There are many people on this list who would be delighted to see some manufacturers go bust so perhaps we should let them have thier way. After all, what this hobby needs is less people making boat kits.

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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2011, 04:38:32 pm »

WELL PUT. Mass produced, low value product has flooded the market in recent years, anyone who has encountered these models can be sure of one thing, they are predominantly junk. There are build threads elswhere regarding Seaport Tugs, mostly being rebuilt to an acceptable standard. Fast models at the £40 to £60 bracket suffer from an excessive amount of burned out motors, pod drive models rust out........
Support your specialist suppliers of decent models, or you will soon be left with nothing but far eastern imported tat.
Here endeth the lesson.
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nhp651

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2011, 05:01:29 pm »

How many people REALLY are happy to pay more for a better quality item ? And I mean would put thier money where there mouth is, not just say they would and do something different.



I would for one...would rather spend £1000.00 ( which I have done so in a round about way on four occasions) for  a Speedline model lifeboat than ever I would for a model that is quite clearly below par and a quarter of the price.

I am just amazed that with all the knocking that a certain manufacturer gets on this and other sites, they don't improve their quality control............instructions and plans.it wouldn't take a lot to make these kits very good products.........and it is as simple as that. They have wonderful variety of product, just a very poor quality control................

Other kit manufacturers have done it.....including Billing who were notorious for lousy instructions and poor quality timber........so if they can why can't others.

It's not rocket science.
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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2011, 05:54:50 pm »

Perhaps some of the whingy woo's should recall that quite recently one noted kit manufacturer had to get a "propper" job to put bread on the family table? Some of the specialist single "Fittings" cost a quarter the price of a cheap kit. Good ole joe public, more bangs per buck ....... again.

  Been a bit of gum bashing about e-bay prices when selling ones pride and joy but certainly no complains when Eddie's cheap and cheerfuls are selling at overated prices.

  Regards  Ian
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Bryan Young

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2011, 06:31:07 pm »

Following this thread, but from a slightly different viewpoint...as a "scratchbuilder" of models with home-made GRP hulls I've always taken an interest in the hulls (GRP, not vacform) produced by the kit manufacturers.
Things that "take my eye"....how many hulls can one mould produce before detail becomes a bit obscured? I suppose that in theory it should run ad-infinitum, but observing the "real world" disproves that. So as a follow-on, is it possible that some manufacturers continue to use moulds that are past their best, probably euphemistically called an economy measure.
Then comes a query about hull thickness. Again, observing "identical" hulls from the same manufacturer I note that "early" hulls are generally slightly stiffer, more robust etc. than later hulls that verge on the flimsy/wobbly side.
   I appreciate that a mould has to be pretty stiff, even when only one hull out of it is projected. But is there a consensus as to just how thick a hull should be? I'm talking about models between say 4 and 7 feet long. I've seen commercially made hulls in this bracket that are really not much more than 1/16" thick...if that much. So not much "built-in" stiffness. My own hulls tend to go in the opposite direction and are probably over-thick (like the builder, perhaps)...but they can withstand massive impacts from the "keep death off the water" brigade. BY.
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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2011, 07:16:45 pm »

To add my 2 bits worth,We live today in a society that wants it fast, cheap & yesterday, sorry folks the world still does not work that way.Quality costs money & time. From experience I have found that people will buy off the internet for a better price & then come to me for the opscure piece that the cherry picker on the net will never sell because there is not enough demand or profit in it for him/her. This ultimately leads to lack of service & "what do you mean you have to special order it" We need the criticism on here to draw our attention to certain shortfalls by some suppliers & manufacturers. I have found for instance that Billings instructions are less than adequate ( my opinion), however I find the kits are very good quality & with a little patience on my part I can figure things out,I would say some may figure it out faster than me & others not at-all. We have got lazy in general & want all our problems solved for us. On the other side of the coin manufacturers need in many cases to up their game & improve the quality & service. Even on this forum I see remarks like "it is better but it costs more" that is precisely why it costs more because it is better.we must all do due diligence in our buying & not spend our hard earned money with the rip off artists that abound both on & off the net. It is still a buyer beware world out there. Paying more does not allways mean better quality but in general it helps. Always give the supplier the chance to rectify the perceived problem or shortfall, we all make mistakes, if they deal with the issue in a satisfactory way continue to deal with them, if not lose their phone #s.  Mick B. PS. Try to figure out how many hours a day Martin at Westbourne, Malcolm @ Cornwall or Dave @ ACTion spend on the phone or answering emails & do not get a cent for their time( the guy in china cant even speak your language)we would be most upset if they failed to talk to us & in a short space of time too.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2011, 01:24:35 am »

How do you get Bean Counters in a one man Business ?

PETER
They can be consultants/consulted, don't they pay taxes, also there are always exceptions to any rule.  O0 O0
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2011, 02:18:15 am »

There are a lot of plus and minus in the commentary to date.

However, I recall that in the main, "slating manufacturers" comments occurred after the 'poster' attempted to get the problem resolved with the manufacturer, but with no success.

Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.

In the main, it is agreed that we should and are prepared to pay extra for quality but it is where that quality, 'in other words value for money', is lacking that has led to adverse commentary, and rightly so. No feedback no improvement.

Reputable producers comment, had I known I would have fixed it. It is those that get the feedback but do nothing that is concerning, hence the "slating".

As has been pointed out, other manufacturers have lifted their game.

Reasons why others haven't/can't such as bread on the table etc etc etc are only excuses not to act.

After all it is the manufacturer who wants me to part with my hard earned cash for what?? So convince me why I should  buy your product.

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Philipsparker

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Re: "slating manufacturers"
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2011, 10:05:44 am »

Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.

Or it illustraites a beginner trying a kit far too advanced for him. Cementing two plastic parts together is something most modellers would do without thinking. It's a common enough term for plastic glue thanks to Airfix.

For my money I want good basic instructions. I don't need to be told how to use glue unless a really specialist product normally used by NASA is required. Some people do though but to produce enough information for them would double or treble the price of the kit. At which point, people say it costs too much.

It must be very difficult to assess the abilities of a potential builder if you are a kit maker talking to them over the phone. Even harder to say "Sorry, you don't have the skills to build this model.".

Phil
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