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[tony52]

This indicates there should be some kind of standard system that all model boat manufacturers signed up to. Indications could include such things as level of difficulty, material of hull manufacture etc.

Instead it is too late when the beginner has received a parcel which contains something far more difficult than his/her capabilities.

The major manufacturers (eg Graupner) already operate such systems on their own basis, but not to a common standard.

My thoughts,
Tony.

[colin-d]

Generally a good rule of thumb is, if you do not get the response you want, then your instructions were wrong. The example of the boat being filled with concrete (cement) illustrates this as the instruction was vague.

Or it illustraites a beginner trying a kit far too advanced for him. Cementing two plastic parts together is something most modellers would do without thinking. It's a common enough term for plastic glue thanks to Airfix.

it even says on the tube of Humbrol glue "Cement"
http://www.airfix.com/humbrol-paints-and-accessories/accessories/glues-and-adhesives/

so what would you prefer to have in the instructions...?? 



well said Tony....  and a few others have also made very good comments... including my fellow Colin 

every manufacture of the world has Easy and Hard kits to build... some used to put stars by the side of the products, one star for easy and 5 stars for difficult, this seams to have disappeared...

[Circlip]

On APS plans there is/was a star grading system for beginners to guru status builders, problem being, who decides? To emphasize Phils posting, a few (quite) years ago one of my neighbours asked if I could have a look at a kit he'd bought. Scattered over the dining table was the contents of a box marked "Billings Santa Maria" and one of the problems he was having was understanding the words Bow and Stern. "Oh, you need to know technical terms about boats? I can put an Airfix kit together in about half an hour"

  The above was thirty years ago and the "Pupil" was in his early twenties. Abilities and aspirations are chasams apart.

 At best, most of British kit manufacturers are virtually cottage industries ......  When compared to the likes of Graupner and lets not forget the in depth instructions that came with the original Paper topped poly bagged Airfix kits. Then Matchbox and Tamaya arrived ......

  Regards  Ian

[essex2visuvesi]

Ah Tamiya :) there are many manufacturers who could learn alot from those guys when it comes to instruction manuals, sprue design, materials etc etc

[JB]

Tamiya kits were a Revelation when they came out, I had a run on the 1/12 F1 cars, first one the JPS Lotus if I remember correctly, I picked up an unmade 1/72 aircraft kit at the local car boot last week...paid £1.

At that scale its not the building, its all in the paint job!

As if I didn't already have enough to stick together

JB.

[nhp651]

and one of the problems he was having was understanding the words Bow and Stern. "Oh, you need to know technical terms about boats? I can put an Airfix kit together in about half an hour"

i remember one classic moment 15 or so years ago when i used to run a model boat building night school class at a local school............

was giving a pep talk to new "students" all in their 50 - 60 - 70's at the start of a new season, and mentioned to them all that they would need some basic tools to work with at home, like a steel rule, craft knife and a cutting board.just the basics.

one silly old s o d  stopped me in my tracks and said [ and i quote ver batim]....."HUH.......YOU DON'T SET B L O O D Y  HOMEWORK  AS WELL, DO YOU"

With a mentality like that.......and there are those that think model ship building is a "pass time" and not a hobby that gets into your blood and whole being......that  THEY really are passed help and have absolutely no chance of building a model, no matter how simply and straight foward or well written instructions and plans are.

but for those who are willing to learn then instructions and plans and good quality kits are a must, or there will forever be half finished models and very disgruntled people willing to slate those manufacturers that don't come up to the mark.

 And i must contradict the comment that kits would cost a great deal more if  instructions were written as fully understandable and plans drawn at full size.........it takes no more time to explain in a set of instructions what glues to use [ and other such processes] than it does to leave that sort of info out, and it actually takes less time to draw a set of plans at full size than it does to draw them "none Scale".........i know as i have written sets of instructions and drawn full size plans containing all such info, and have been asked in the past but turned them down for personal reasons  by at least two other companies producing kits in this country.

the fallacy that it takes less time and therefore less money by producing lower par instructions and plans is simply false and also false economy in the long run.

[Philipsparker]

And i must contradict the comment that kits would cost a great deal more if  instructions were written as fully understandable and plans drawn at full size.........it takes no more time to explain in a set of instructions what glues to use [ and other such processes] than it does to leave that sort of info out,

I have to disagree. If you write up and illustraite every single step in the production of a model, then it takes a long time. I have an idea how long as I do this every month in Hornby Magazine for railway projects - even a simple model can take a couple of days to complete. Something like a warship would take months. The superstructure, for example, is full of parts to be cut out from plastic and stuck together. You might want to show this in detail for one item but after this it's normal to assume the modeller now has an idea what they are doing and engage the brain and work out that some of the boxes they build will be different shapes. Someone like Hachette doesn't, they show every single joint to ensure plenty of issues of the partwork.

High quality, well writen instructions MUST take longer than badly writen ones. The later can be summed up with "Take the parts and stick them together". That took me seconds to write, anthing else will be much more work.

Another point is that they should be written by someone other than the manufacturer. They are too close to the kit and "know" how it goes together. This means shipping a kit to another modeller and letting them get on with it. That person will want paying for thier work if it's any good, pushing up the cost of the kit again. No wonder badly writen building notes are so appealing.

Mind you, I've built kits with NO instructions. Is it really wrong to expect people to have at least some idea of what they are making before they start ? I don't mean a in depth examination of the prototype but at least knowing what the pointy bit is called and looking at a few photos to get the general idea of where all the bits go.

[nhp651]

I have to disagree. If you write up and illustraite every single step in the production of a model, then it takes a long time. I have an idea how long as I do this every month in Hornby Magazine for railway projects - even a simple model can take a couple of days to complete. Something like a warship would take months.

well, speaking from similar experience, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Dekan]

It seems to me to be that are still too many British suppliers and manufacturers that still rely on the fact that average Brit is hopeless at complaining...

Mind you my experience of of pursuing a complaint has hardly been much better than just moaning.....lots of promises all of them broken...They know if the item isn't that expensive you are very unlikely to take them to court..

Don,t be confused....not all the people in the model trade are nice people...

[tt1]

Phil's point of "knowing what your getting into" is SO valid! -------  As a novice before I attempted my first ever model, I went to shows and shops and asked many questions before buying. I have good practical skills but had absolutely no knowledge of models or boats, you learn about the 'pointy bits' as you go - I even know what ruffle holes are now!  As advised by many I opted for a Model Slipway kit, I read description of skill level on his site, spoke to him and chose the Loyal Class - brilliant!  My second the Shamrock, again Model Slipway, looked simple but to get it absolutely right it wasn't, but my learning curve had began and without having to scratch build anything.  Neither 'fell together' but I don't think I would want them to, it was no doubt excellent plans ,diagrams, parts and especially the instructions that helped me put together models I'm really pleased with -  Without a doubt it was this that fuelled my desire for modelling, to continue and improve.

The third kit I purchased a Deans MTB 488 I think it looks a great boat, bought it knowingly beforehand (especially from this forum) that some things as previously voiced would leave a lot to be desired - it didn't disappoint! I'm still glad I have it but initial study told me to leave it a while.  The point I make is that to fulfill expectation any model chosen and from where to buy needs research beforehand!  After all when buying cars household appliances etc. etc. people usually do their homework looking for value for money, even then I'll bet most manufacturers that produce a large range have a 'dog' or two!

Don't be over enthusiastic when pitching skill level, and don't expect 'cheap' quality, they very rarely go together, you really have to learn what your getting into and like all things in life it's usually a compromise. I think 'slating' is a strong word - but! if members weren't to voice advice and or opinion on this forum I probably wouldn't have learned as much as I have and Deans kit would have gone back by now! I find improving and overcoming challenges so satisfying.

A project in stock for the (distant) future - a Tyne Models Ironsider tug - just love the finished model, it's a big brute.  Inside the box;  fibreglass hull, superstructure all in one with no markings, one plain sheet of styrene, a small box of white metal fittings and a few strips of wire 2 very poor copies of plans and photos on a CD showing a Kort nozzle fitted that the plans don't show as the original didn't have one, and that's it - no diagrams, no descriptions, no preprinted parts, no instructions, and sold as a part kit with the majority to be scratch built using own materials. Weren't cheap - but it DOES meet criteria as described by the vendor, so I'm happy even though I haven't a clue if, how, where, and when to start.

Watch out for cries of help in a few years time!

                                    Regards, Tony.

 

[Dekan]

I notice the Deans Marine thread is now locked....

A big problem for most traders is that their customers can now talk to each other very much more easily nowadays via Internet forums.

The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..

I realize that all things are made to a price... but often the price seem very high compared to the quality of the product..

[Colin Bishop]

The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..

As someone who has done a number of magazine reviews over the years I strongly resent that comment. I have never been put under any pressure whatsoever to do other than tell it as it is and if you have read any of my reviews then you would see they are warts and all.

With such crass statements as this maybe the mods should lock this thread too

Colin

[nhp651]

As someone who has done a number of magazine reviews over the years I strongly resent that comment. I have never been put under any pressure whatsoever to do other than tell it as it is and if you have read any of my reviews then you would see they are warts and all.

With such crass statements as this maybe the mods should lock this thread too

Colin

yes, i took a little umbidge to that comment as well.

i wrote a number of reveiws in the 1980/90's and never once was i approached by a manufacturer to give them a "good review", and because of some of my comments, got some stick for my blunt views from those manufacturers............there was certainly no "back slapping" in my day as a reviewer, and i wouldn't have done them had i been asked to say anything but the truth

[DickyD]

Handbags at dawn then.

[nhp651]

what, at my age, dicky........more like walking sticks and colostomy bags...........

[Number 6]

I don't think anyone is really going out of their way to slate any manufacturer in particular. I do however think that we pay a lot of money for some of these kits and that should be reflected in the quality of parts and instructions, plans etc. Like has been said before if two pieces are meant to fit together then they should fit together. We all expect to have to do some fettling with white metal, resin parts etc but we shouldn't have to replace/remake parts because they're 'unfit for purpose'. There should be good quality controls in place so the problem doesn't arise, you should at least expect a replacement to arrive fairly promptly if you do need one. Part of my enjoyment in making these models is that you do have to solve problems and be creative a lot of the time, but we shouldn't have to put up with substandard parts and service, I get enough of that at work. I build boats for relaxation and enjoyment, not to get frustrated. Dave. 

[colin-d]

i might not write for the English magazines, but i do for the German ones... in the Modellwerft 9/2011 is my report on the SS furie...

i have been approached by the magazines to do a report on a particular kit, but have never been approached by the manufactures of these kits

i also resent the comments made      

The old back slapping reviews of products in magazines, that were designed to back up the paid advertising, that were the norm once are on the way out..

[Number 6]

I would have thought the manufacturers would appreciate constructive criticism rather than just having an extended advert printed. Word soon spreads about the truth, and if false and misleading articles were continually printed any magazine or publication and the author would soon lose all credibility and status, not to mention people would just stop buying said publications, Dave. 

[Colin Bishop]

Quite!

[Tug-Kenny RIP]

              I think enough has been said on this subject



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