Topic: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions (Read 39096 times)

muleears · « **Reply #50 on:** July 26, 2012, 10:51:12 am »

Quote from: pettyofficernick on July 26, 2012, 08:55:06 am

Hi Cal, you may have difficulty fitting a pressure gauge to your boiler, the PM research gauge and siphon is threaded 3/16 x 40, you krick boiler was made in Germany, so has metric threads, if, indeed there is a bush to fit a gauge in the first place, and when I tried to get my example tested, the boiler tester refused to test it, due to the method of construction. Do you have a Wilesco dealer in the US, they will be a better source for a gauge for your boiler as they manufactured these boilers for Krick. You may, in the end, have to rely on the safety valve to indicate when the boiler has reached working pressure. There is a suitable pressure gauge here
http://www.ministeam.com/acatalog/Wilesco_Parts.html
A phone call to Ministeam will help to point you in the right direction.
Best of luck,
Regards,
Nick.

Nick,
Thanks for the part link, I had looked at boiler accessories but didn't find that. I will contact MiniSteam today. Lets hope their customer service is better than last time...

Derek,
That's good advice, I don't know of any steam clubs but I do have the number of a man nearby who has a large steam locomotive collection. He may be able to help.

Also a question: The tank/burner combination I have, is it made to only burn butane? or can I burn propane in it also? The camp stove/lantern fuel available here is (I believe) propane.

Cal

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #51 on:** July 26, 2012, 11:21:48 am »

Hi Cal, I wouldn't put neat propane in your gas tank as the storage pressures are a lot higher than for butane, try looking for 60% butane/40%propane mix, as supplied for plumbers blow torches, that is pretty much the standard here in the UK. As regards boiler testing, you need the manufacturers safe working pressure for that particular boiler as a starting point, otherwise the tester will not know what pressure to test the boiler at, (normally 2 x working pressure) that was one of the problems I had when I tried to get mine tested, as the manufacturer does not seem to state the SWP in any of his documentation, you could try emailing Krick in Germany, or ask the guys at Ministeam.
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Nick.

muleears · « **Reply #52 on:** July 26, 2012, 11:31:35 am »

What I wanted to use is "Coleman Fuel" which is the stuff used for the torches and such that you mentioned. That is a common brand name here in the states, I will check the label to see if it shows contents and percentages.

nick_75au · « **Reply #53 on:** July 26, 2012, 11:46:36 am »

The gas you want will be in the aerosol type canisters, 100 % propane is only kept in the heavy steel cylinders. Coleman fuel is a butane Propane mix which will be OK the percentages can vary we use to sell (camping store) only 90% butane/10% propane due to the high temps here.

Australia has a code for "sub miniature boilers" which is used by model engineering societies which under 29.4 PSI and 77 mm diameter allows boilers made of brass (still recommends copper) and with no pressure gauge, these have been considered a good guideline regardless of country.

AMBSC Code Part 3

Nick

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #54 on:** July 26, 2012, 12:21:14 pm »

Here in the UK we have the 3 bar/litre rule, ie. The 3 bar-litre limit is defined as the internal volume of the boiler (in litres) multiplied by the working pressure (in bar)
Where 1 bar = 14.5038 lb/in² and 1 litre = 1.76 pints. if the result of the calculation falls below 3 bar/litres, a certificate is not required, although some insurance companies still require one. It all depends on the requirements in different countries I suppose.
Have fun,
Nick

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #55 on:** July 26, 2012, 10:18:45 pm »

Hi Cal,
The Colman Camping fuel (Butane/Propane) will work fine, you should also check some of the Asian grocery stores for the Butane cans that go in the table top burners, I have found some at a $1 a can and they work well in the hot summer weather. For a Boiler Certificate check with your local state authorities as to whether one is required. Most of the small toy type boilers fall under an exemption in most state and Canadian Provinces. The boiler for my D48 did but when I had to repair it I did a hydrostatic test on it. I think you will find that the Safety Valve is set around 25psi and is threaded 6M.
Regards,
Gerald.

bwmarks · « **Reply #56 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:15:10 am »

I bought some "Brunton" gas at gander http://www.expeditionexchange.com/brunton/ for my Hemmens boiler - it has the right connection for the filling extension I got from Hemmens

derekwarner · « **Reply #57 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:45:17 am »

in OZ ...those little squat 200 gm disposable EN16 threaded tanks are about $5.50 each which is highway robbery

as it equals $0.0275/gm...or $27.50/kg or $27,500.00/tonne

So I purchased a 200 gm refillable tank from Sandy Campbell and now use Gasmate 200 gm disposable containers from Coles or K-Mart for $12.00 for a six pack.........

....they don't use the EN16 thread...but fit directly into the Ronson type valves in the refillable onboard gas tank

Derek

southsteyne2 · « **Reply #58 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:28:04 am »

I do not wish to cause alarm but as you say the pressure is unknown I STRONGLY advise checking the safety valve and fitting a pressure gauge suitable for your boiler and then the boiler pressure tested, once the working pressure is established then you will be able to properly test your engine so if I were you I would leave the engine be and concentrate on the above mentioned for your own and possibly others safety.
John

muleears · « **Reply #59 on:** July 27, 2012, 09:37:07 am »

This is what I am talking about using:

My concern is that is just says "propane", it doesn't say anything about a butane mix. But this is what is used to fuel torches and camping stoves and lanterns.

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #60 on:** July 27, 2012, 10:06:29 am »

Morning Cal, I have just tried to find the specifications for the gas in your photo, all I can find is an advertisement that says that this gas works at temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees, which leads me to believe it is pure propane, try doing a search for 60% butane 40% propane mix.
Regards,
Nick.

nick_75au · « **Reply #61 on:** July 27, 2012, 11:40:10 am »

Wallmart link for what you need to use, these are a much lighter gauge steel than the 100% propane cylinders.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Coleman-Butane-Propane-Mix-Fuel/20595064

Nick

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #62 on:** July 27, 2012, 12:24:15 pm »

Quote from: muleears on July 27, 2012, 09:37:07 am

This is what I am talking about using:

My concern is that is just says "propane", it doesn't say anything about a butane mix. But this is what is used to fuel torches and camping stoves and lanterns.

Cal,
This type of container is of no use to you as you can't refill your existing fuel tank with it.
As Gerald has already said you can get the cans of lighter fuel at some of the Asian Supermarkets , these cans have a nozzle that fits into the Ronson type filler in your tank.

You don't need a pressure gauge in your boiler, it was never designed to have one, there isn't a boiler bush to allow you to fit one.

If you are a bit cautious in firing up your boiler, once you have found a supplier of the gas, take the tank out of the boat, there are keyhole slots in your tank base
to allow you to, and fill the tank until it over flows at the filler valve. Never fill the tank with the it installed in the boat, always outside.
Set the steam plant up about 6 ft away from you and fire it up until the safety valve blows, which will be about 20 p.s.i. and this will let you know if it's working, if not before it blows off you will see steam leaks from any unsafe joint so shut down immediately and seek some help from somebody witha knowledge of boilers.
Personally I don't think that you will have any trouble.
Wilesco must have sold thousands of this plants and many of your country men successfully run them without any mishaps, so get some gas and have a go.

Happy steaming

George.

Circlip · « **Reply #63 on:** July 27, 2012, 01:01:46 pm »

You are a tormenting devil George, what's the "Lump"?????

Regards Ian.

southsteyne2 · « **Reply #64 on:** July 27, 2012, 02:47:00 pm »

<*<Sounds good George light the wick and stand back great way to advise a newcomer to live steam
John

pettyofficernick · « **Reply #65 on:** July 27, 2012, 04:35:51 pm »

Butane propane (as recommended by Mike at Maccsteam is best, use the same gas as you use for your Maccsteam boiler and you won't go wrong, you can get an adapter to fit on to blowlamp/camping stove cylinders, an example of which is shown in the photo. I have also included a webpage with some useful information about tanks, burners etc.
Kind regards,
Nick.

http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/ceramic_burners.htm

steamboatmodel · « **Reply #66 on:** July 27, 2012, 05:48:10 pm »

The ones Nick and George are the ones to use. Do NOT use the one pound steel propane bottles as that is straight propane and not suitable for your type of tank. The problem with using straight propane is the pressure it reaches as the temperature increases (The heavy steel tank is there for a reason), I have included a link which shows the various temperatures and mixes;
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/propane-butane-mix-d_1043.html
Regards,
Gerald.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #67 on:** July 27, 2012, 06:12:06 pm »

Quote from: southsteyne2 on July 27, 2012, 02:47:00 pm

<*<Sounds good George light the wick and stand back great way to advise a newcomer to live steam
John

Yes John, it's quite irresponsible to pass this advice to a newcomer.
I should have said 60 yds and I forgot to mention the 6 ft high wall of sand bags all around with a hole to view with binoculars.

How else can a newcomer who lives in the middle of a continent with nobody near him to get him up and steaming but to give it a try ?
Perhaps you are one of those that think boilers explode, they don't , if there is a leak it becomes very visible by firstly a weep of steam at a joint and any responsible person would shut down immediately.

I should hate to think that Cal would sit and look at his steam plant waiting for somebody to come and hydraulic test his boiler , which I may add isn't neccessary.
I think that Wilesco would fit a pressure gauge if required and they would state the working pressure as it left them, but they don't.

I am no way blase in the safe operation of steam plants but common sense should prevail, there is no more danger in a steam plant than crossing the road.

So Cal I stand by what I have said , give it a go .

Happy steaming.

George.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #68 on:** July 27, 2012, 06:13:50 pm »

Quote from: Circlip on July 27, 2012, 01:01:46 pm

You are a tormenting devil George, what's the "Lump"?????

Regards Ian.

Ian,
It's a Stuart Launch engine that I am at present building with some mods that I think necessary

George..

Circlip · « **Reply #69 on:** July 27, 2012, 06:18:41 pm »

'Course, you mentioned earlier, All zimmers again.

Regards Ian.

john s 2 · « **Reply #70 on:** July 27, 2012, 09:03:17 pm »

Yes the three bar rule does exist. It is best to find out if your clubs insurence allows this. My clubs insurence does not ,so a test certificate is needed. Im always amazed at how many people find steam frightening. My usual reply is what pressure is your Coffee frother working at? What about your steam cleaner or pressure cooker? Do you test them? Answer no. Why not? Blank look. John.

geoff p · « **Reply #71 on:** July 28, 2012, 04:10:55 am »

I'm with George (Ooyah2) on this: somewhere I have a YouTube-type movie of a well-known European manufacturer making boilers, which are thin-wall, brass and soft-soldered. If the maker deemed a pressure gauge necessary, you can be sure they would fit it.

John s2 reminded me of my desperate attempts to make steam-enough to test one of my oscillators - I 'stuffed' a flexible hose to where the relief-valve normally goes on my pressure cooker. I've no idea what pressure it was and it doesn't matter, I was getting a fair amount of steam. This all stopped when the plastic pipe softened in the gas-cooker flame, bulged under steam-pressure, and popped. End of experiment.

I can't imagine most of you lot giving your children a Mamod steam engine 'toy' to learn with, yet how many of you actually got one as a Crimble present and had a lot of fun, linking it with your Meccano etc.?

Don't be such humbugs, let Muleears fire up his engine and enjoy.

Geoff

muleears · « **Reply #72 on:** July 28, 2012, 10:59:40 am »

A couple of you may have missed reply #40, it contains a video of the boiler fired up and the engine running! I don't believe the safety valve even began to lift. I kept it at full throttle for the entire run. I don't know what pressure the safety valve is set for but it does move freely.

George has a good point, there are no clubs anywhere near me and a google search returned nothing of use as far as model boiler certification (in the states anyway). Maybe another member in the USA can shed some light on this.

Getting back to the fuel question, what is the advantage of a butane/propane mix versus straight butane?

southsteyne2 · « **Reply #73 on:** July 28, 2012, 11:53:32 am »

Boy burned as toy steam engine erupts in flames

11:35am Tuesday 16th October 2007 in News

A FIVE-year-old boy suffered horrific burns after being badly burned when a working model steam engine allegedly "burst into flames".

Spencer Connolly, of Sidlaw Road, Billingham, Cleveland had severe injuries that left him in a "critical" condition in hospital and needing operations and skin grafts to repair the damage.

Another boy was also seriously injured and two other children, including Spencer's eight year old sister, Georgia, were hurt.

It has prompted an investigation by trading standards chiefs, who are trying to establish exactly what happened.

But officials say they are not aware of any similar incidents involving the Mamod model traction engine, which has been sold for many years.

The youngsters were at a relative's home when the accident happened.

It is understood a teenage boy had the model steam engine at the time.

Spencer's father Shane Connolly, 31 said: "My two kids have told us what has happened.

"Apparently there was a massive bang. It has literally burst into flames. The next thing there are two kids on fire."

He said his son was "burned from top to toe".

"He was in intensive care for the first seven days. We didn't know whether he would live or die."

Spencer was rushed to James Cook University Hospital after the accident.
I am sure because of limited news there were many other incidents in the old days we never heard about.
John

john s 2 · « **Reply #74 on:** July 28, 2012, 11:12:11 pm »

This sounds like the meths version.Now solid fuel is used. I was aware of an American incident. Sadly to many people would overfill the fuel burner. What was a young child doing so near? Possibly he tipped it? This could with overfilled burner result in flames.Just a thought was petrol being wrongly used? Sad that injury occured. John

News:

Author Topic: Bought a new toy on Ebay, have some questions (Read 39096 times)