Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: copper or brass  (Read 11307 times)

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
copper or brass
« on: October 22, 2012, 07:29:57 am »


I build this wobbler engine and I would like to build a vertical boiler. My question is can I use brass for a boiler?


Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

gondolier88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,347
  • www.coniston-regatta.co.uk
  • Location: Crake Valley, Cumbria
    • Coniston Regatta
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 10:06:35 am »

Yes, but only for low pressure applications- 1Bar or less really. Brass can de-zincify at steam temperatures, as well as being difficult to silver solder as the melting point of thin brass is very close to soldering temperature.

It can be done, has been done and you can do it too, but I would recommend copper.

Greg
Logged
Don't get heated...get steamed up!

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 11:04:45 am »

Thank you Greg. :-))
 The reason for brass is that the tube comes with endcaps. Soldering copper is almost like soldering silver and I have done a fair share of silversmithing.
Logged
Keep on turning

livesteam

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 03:45:01 pm »

I don't agree: if you use at least a quality of MS63 then you can use brass also for higher pressure applications (3Bar). BUT: you have to make sure that you empty the boiler if you are not going to use it for a longer time. The main risk for de-zincify is when there is water in the boiler for a longer time. The boilers of German manufacturer Regner for instance are all made of brass since more than 20 years. Although I have not been always satisfied with his products (used to have a "Premium" plant in may Galsgow paddler) Regner has quite a good reputation especialy for his live steam locos. Conclusion: in case weight is a matter than I would consider a brass boiler, otherwise rather copper.
Kaspar
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 05:09:34 pm »

Kaspar thank you for your reply.
I noticed that more commercial boilers are made of brass , Wilesco uses brass to.

Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

Mikasa

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Barrow in Furness
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 05:23:04 pm »

Hi the best Brass boilers are from seamless solid drawn Tube
Logged

livesteam

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 06:27:37 pm »

wilesco is definitely for low pressure only. as far as I know they are soft soldered only. best regards kaspar
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 07:17:58 pm »

I don`t want a wilesco boiler but build one or buy a regner boiler. There is a supplier that sells seamless brass tube with a diameter of 70mm and 90 mm and has endcaps to.
For that little wobbler I need two bar presure max three bar.

Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

ooyah/2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 772
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 09:40:49 pm »

Henk,
One of the problems in giving a definitive answer to your question is that there isn't enough known about silver soldered brass boilers and of the regulations required in Holland to hydraulic test and give a Certificate for insurance.

In the U.K. if you produced a brass boiler to a tester to be Certified you would require to produce design drawings, design figures of the brass tube from the manufacturer on it's strength and integrity and calculations to prove that your design was safe other wise he would refuse to hydraulic test it and issue a certificate for insurance purposes..
In all of the years in testing Copper boilers I have never come across a new brass boiler made by an amateur boiler maker for testing nor do I know where design calculations for a brass design are available, so in general I would not test it.

I don't know where you live in Holland, city or country, so if you are not concerned about having an insurance certificate to cover any accidents or personal injuries with your boiler go ahead and make it in brass.

Just be careful on soldering as it's already been said that the melting point of brass is near that to silver solder and the heat required you could alter the mechanical property's of the brass and if the gauge is quite light you could in the worst case burn a hole in the tube or change the brass structure to become very brittle which will not be noticable until under pressure when it could all give way.

Don't under estimate 1 bar of pressure, it can do serious damage if you are near a boiler at that pressure when it lets go, there is a You-Tube vid some where of a small brass boiler blowing and it's quite frightening, maybe some body can post the link to it.

Remember that Wilesco, Regner and others who make and sell steam plants buy such large quantities of brass tube that they can specify from the tube makers what gauge and make up of the tube is and have been making them for years.

I would strongly suggest that if you wish to make your own boiler make it in copper which is a very well known and proven material for the amateur boiler maker.

Calculations are available ( see the K.N.Harris book  MODEL BOILERS and  BOILER MAKING ) as are proven designs for copper boilers and safer in the long term.
Don't let us put you of with your brass boiler but be very careful
George
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2012, 07:04:55 am »

George thank you very much for your comment :-)). I have thought it over and decided to buy a regner boiler.

Regards Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

ooyah/2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 772
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2012, 10:10:55 pm »

George thank you very much for your comment :-)). I have thought it over and decided to buy a regner boiler.

Regards Henk.




Henk,
I hope that your enthusiasm to build a boiler has not been dampened, why not consider building one in copper, can the supplier of the brass tube supply you with a piece  1 mm thk x 75 mm dia copper tube or thinner ?  
You will then need some flat copper plate to make the end plates and the formers from some hard wood, a small vertical boiler with a center flue and a ceramic burner or some fuel cubes would be ideal for your little engine.

I don't know what the cost of a Regnar boiler would be but you could cost it against materials to build your own which will be much cheaper and think of the satisfaction of bashing copper with a big hammer, it gets rid of a lot of frustration.

George
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2012, 10:33:29 am »

George I am going to have a look at the Regner boiler this boiler is about € 100.00 the cost of materials is about € 75.00.
I still have to build a Launch. By buying a boiler I have more time to build a Launch and finish my two cylinder wobbler.

Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

ooyah/2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 772
  • Location: Glasgow
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2012, 12:01:10 pm »

George I am going to have a look at the Regner boiler this boiler is about € 100.00 the cost of materials is about € 75.00.
I still have to build a Launch. By buying a boiler I have more time to build a Launch and finish my two cylinder wobbler.

Henk.


Thanks Henk,
It's hardly worth building your own at this point as the price differential isn't too much and as you say by purchasing one it lets you push on with the boat.

Look forward to your engine and boat build.

George.
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2012, 05:05:12 pm »

The engine looks like this:

Was at the hobby store and discussed the boiler I had in mind, but he sugested to buy a bigger one or buikd one. He showed a plan for a 80 mm boiler from copper.
He told me where to buy copper pipe and I left the store with a bag of fittings :-)

Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

kiwimodeller

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Waihi, New Zealand
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2012, 10:34:25 am »

Greetings Henk, could you please provide a link to the page showing the Regner boiler you were considering? For those of us who do not have the facilities to build a boiler it sounds like the boiler you were looking at would be a well priced one for the smaller engines. Thanks, Ian.
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2012, 04:07:32 pm »

Ian it is a Dutch company that has the Regner catalog on line http://modelbouwatelier.nl/ than you go to producten/occasions, than Regner stoommachines micro and easyline. The boiler I was looking at is a small one just good enough for a wobbler. It is the blue one.
Henk.
Logged
Keep on turning

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2012, 05:36:38 pm »

condenser under construction
Logged
Keep on turning

kiwimodeller

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 622
  • Location: Waihi, New Zealand
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 09:32:07 am »

Thanks for the guide Henk, I have bookmarked the page for when I have my next small project under way. Cheers, Ian
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2012, 04:09:45 pm »

Your welcome Ian.
Logged
Keep on turning

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2012, 04:21:27 pm »

Boiler building.
Logged
Keep on turning

Mad_Mike

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,596
  • Lincolnshire
  • Location: Lincolnshire
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2013, 08:12:53 pm »

so what happened here did you build the boiler?
Logged

hammer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Location: devon england
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2013, 05:34:18 pm »

Henk, this may be of interest to you. 
Logged

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2013, 08:55:36 pm »

Mike the boiler is finished, building a gas tank now.
Hammer thanks nice pictures. :-))
Logged
Keep on turning

Henk Goosen

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Location: Nunspeet, The Netherlands.
    • klokkenmaker Goosen.
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2013, 09:21:48 pm »

Refinishing
Logged
Keep on turning

vnkiwi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,593
  • Location: SE Asia
Re: copper or brass
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2013, 10:44:01 pm »

so where's the photos then  <*<

cheers   :-))
vnkiwi

Logged
If it ain't broke. Don't fix it !
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.019 seconds with 21 queries.