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Author Topic: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i  (Read 6039 times)

ixion

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Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« on: March 03, 2013, 08:18:26 pm »

Is anyone using a Spektrum DX6i to operate Graupner Voith drives? Just wondering what the optimum travel adjustment is on Spektrum if you had the Voiths operating on the gear switch, what % of travel adjustment to have. In other words how fast should the Voiths be rotating. Graupner say the maximum motor speed: the rotational speed of the propeller wheel should be about 457 rpm, which corresponds to a motor speed of Nnom: 6000 rpm. This is the same speed as the full-size power plants.
On a 12 V supply this rotational speed corresponds to a speed controller setting of about 52% (Graupner RC system). 
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Neil

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2013, 08:32:14 pm »

I'll be interested to hear of your findings Ixion.......as I have just bought two myself for a future project.
 
neil.
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inertia

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2013, 08:41:03 pm »

Me too. I gather from threads on other forumses that if you are running the brushed Speed 500E motor version @ 12v then full speed will overheat the motors and burn them out fairly quickly. I'd planned to restrict the output to about 80% of full speed as a starting point as I won't be towing with the model (a Parat tug). I'll be using ACTion P79 ESCs (of course) and a Robbe-Futaba F16 radio.
DM
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2013, 08:46:19 pm »

I'd planned to restrict the output to about 80% of full speed as a starting point
I am running at 55% and they seem to be running quick, I can't work out when I go down to 50% if I loose speed and power?
 
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2013, 08:49:20 pm »

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Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2013, 11:44:38 pm »

Hi Ixion. We met at Erias park and I think I had my Parat then. I've had her for 4 years now and when I'm home I use her every Sunday at Llanberis. I can't help with the Spectrum issue but may assist in other ways. I've added a pic on the bottom of this post showing how I've arranged the servos. First off Graupner make really nice kit but they missunderstood how a VS tug actually works. They specify a 60A ESC. This is way over the top. I run 2x12V7Ah batteries in parallel through a 20A switch and a 20A fuse driving one 25A Mtronics ESC driving both motors in parallel. I had to change over the wires on one motor so that the starboard unit turned clockwise (viewed from above) and the port unit turned anticlockwise. I run them both flat out at full speed (Graupner 150%). They get quite warm but if I spit on them they don't spit back. Never blown a fuse or had motor failure. Max current, units in water on max pitch, 6.5A. These motors are massively geared down. I haven't counted the teeth though so not sure of ratio.They work! Tug is not over powered, even when towing. The ESC isn't strictly needed. On the full size tug we don't adjust the revs, they are always full speed and the governer looks after the load. For delivery jobs we prefer to run on minimum RPM and maximum pitch (we are usually range critical and this way we get the greatest distance for our fuel load). We can't do this on Voiths unfortunately, the system won't let us. So on the model all that is required is an r/c switch or even an external manual switch. Fit an ESC by all means as you can have fun reducing the RPM to a minimum and learn a bit more slowly. They can seem a bit violent when you start off.
Next bit. Graupner specify 4 servos (2 for each unit). It CAN be done this way but makes handling much more complicated than it need be. The full size tug has only 3 controls viz. 2 levers, which alter ahead and astern pitch(and thus thrust)(these are the 2 servos on the center line which move the little lever athwartships at 90 degrees to the thrust), and a wheel which alters the athwartships pitch on BOTH units simultaneously. As the motors contra rotate if you move one little lever forward and the other aft both units will thrust in the same direction at 90 degrees to the centerline of the tug. The photo shows the athwartship servo in the port servo mounting opening. It is fitted with a 90 degree crank with one arm driving the port little lever and the other arm driving an idler rod across to a 90 degree idler crank in the starboard servo mounting position (You could substitute a stripped out servo with just the output shaft fitted). the other arm of the idler crank drives the starboard unit little lever in the opposite direction to the port one. (little lever is what I call the actuator pin in the center of the big wheel, but I can't remember what it's really called).
On the Tx  I use ch 1 (right lever fore and aft) for stbd unit F & A thrust.
                           ch 3 (left lever F & A) for port unit F & A thrust.
I made 2 circular blanks from the Voith cutouts from the hull into gates for the Tx levers so the only move F & A. These gates have a notch in the center and a tightish fit on the lever arms so the levers stay central and need a little force to move F & A. I screwed these to the Tx case and they are removeable when using other models. Ch2 and 4 not used.
Now the tricky bit. I have a Graupner Tx. Ch 5 is controlled by a Pot mounted top right of Tx case. I use this channel for RPM. Ch6 is also controlled by a Pot also mounted top right next to Ch 5. I use Ch 6 to drive the athwartships servo. So Ch 6 is the wheel and used for steering. The advantage with this layout is that whichever direction you are going (forward or astern) if you turn the wheel to stbd (clockwise) the boat will turn to stbd. If you can't fit the extra pots then you can remove Ch 2 and 4 pots from the levers inside the Tx and mount them as I have said and just add knobs. If that doesn't suit you then leave the pots where they are and use Ch 2 for steering and Ch 4 for RPM. In my head that would be a bit complicated though!
As to how much throw on the little lever. Max range servo travel on my Tx is +150% to -150%. I find you don't need more than 50%. If you go too much they get noisy so I set the units to full speed (150%) and while running set the throw until max lever travel on Tx results in silence then back off 10% more. This is because when max lever and max steering are put on together they will get noisy again. Noise is strain!
A bit long winded but you can't really get simple with Voiths. PM me if you want a chat.
Hope it helps.
Jerry.

inertia

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2013, 11:48:28 pm »

Priceless stuff here, Jerry - many thanks.
DM
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Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2013, 11:57:38 pm »

How the hell inertia did you read my post and post an answer before I could make a cup of tea. It took me an hour and 45 mins to write all that. My text finger is glowing man!
Jerry.

inertia

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2013, 09:21:32 am »

How the hell inertia did you read my post and post an answer before I could make a cup of tea. It took me an hour and 45 mins to write all that. My text finger is glowing man!
Jerry.
Practice, old thing. That's all.
DM
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2013, 06:02:54 pm »

Hi Jerry,
Yes we did meet and although I saw your model of PARAT on the water I didn't get to inspect the running gear. You will have to visit us again when we have some water in the lake and give me some 'driving' lessons.
 
I run them both flat out at full speed (Graupner 150%). They get quite warm but if I spit on them they don't spit back. Never blown a fuse or had motor failure.

So you run the motors flat out? Does more RPM's give more speed or power?
Thanks for the informative post I have read it three times and think I understand.
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Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 06:49:02 pm »

The motors are rated at 12V. If you give them 12V with no pitch they rev to design RPM but draws very little current thus uses low power(drag on blades, friction, heat noise). If you put pitch on then the motor draws more current as it develops more power. At max revs and pitch it develops max power and so draws max current. Talking of speed,  running free, then the tug reaches near max speed with only about half power. Adding more power increases speed only slightly but hull sinks and just makes waves. The extra is for towing.
Give me a shout when t'pond is full and I'll come down. Do you allow steam?
Jerry.

Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 01:39:24 pm »

There's me saying I've had no problems. Fool! At the lake on Sunday a servo did Puff the Magic Dragon impression. Simple replacement from used stock however when reseting throws and midpoints after fitting I was surprised to find that considerable force is required when changing pitch. I always had it in my head that everything would be balanced and that low torque servos would surfice. A good learning day. While changing the servo I decided to take my own advice and replace the idler frank for a gutted servo. This has the effect of removing unwanted slop in the crank. Everything nice and taught now. In picture left servo is the replacement for failed one and top servo is dummy and only contains the output shaft which supports the idler crank.
   A short note to Parat builders which came to me when repairing. When I built Parat, as it was my 1st model , with the exception of the specified ESC and 4th servo, I did exactly as instructed by Graupner. I put the Rx, Rx battery and pump exactly as per plans and set all the wiring early in the build before putting the deck on. Everything running through holes, secured safely and out of sight as much as possible.
Bad move! On completion of the model, when running for first time to do all the final adjustments, I found so much interference from the motors (supressed as plan) that nothing would work unless the receiver was re-sited aft. As there is also a large quantity of r/c gear high in the deck house (2 servos, ch splitter module and a sail winch) a lot of wiring has to be re-routed. Was not a happy bunny. I've never been happy with it since so finally did some tidying up on Sunday pm.
Hope this helps.
Jerry

Neil

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 02:04:43 pm »

jerry.............just a simple question.........I received my two voiths this morning for a coming project....where one is situated bow and the other stern.....about 45 inches apart.......................you do need two servos per voith.............correct? or incorrect.
 
neil.
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sailorboy61

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2013, 02:17:53 pm »

That sounds like a nightmare drive Neil, well unless both units are combined on one stick!
 
From time to time I end up driving a vessel with two schottle water jet units, not only one fore and aft, but also on opposite sides of the hull - totally fab for spinning around on your own axis, but a total nightmare for just about anything else.
 
Await with interest your build!
 
jerry.............just a simple question.........I received my two voiths this morning for a coming project....where one is situated bow and the other stern.....about 45 inches apart.......................you do need two servos per voith.............correct? or incorrect.
 
neil.
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Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2013, 02:22:09 pm »

I don't know this one Neil. Never seen a real one. Would think the ferry at South Shields uses your system. Maybe someone from round there could help. Initial thoughts are that a ferry would need four servos.
Jerry.

Jerry C

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 05:44:54 pm »

Given it a bit more thought. Ferry type. 1 servo and 1 lever operating 2 units for ahead and astern. 2 servos and 2 levers for independent athwartships thrust(going alongside) use either one for steering. Simples.
Jerry.

Neil

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2013, 06:13:44 pm »

yes lads.........it is a ferry I'm going to build.............and a lot of the inter island Calmac ferries had voiths for and aft of the boat for fore/aft and sideways manouverabliity .........mostly the modele would only use one voith for for or aft motion, but for competition and/or authenticity both voiths would also be set up for steering and side thrust.
neil.
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2013, 07:08:04 pm »

These Voiths are hard work to set up, still struggling!
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catengineman

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2013, 07:25:18 pm »

jerry.............just a simple question.........I received my two voiths this morning for a coming project....where one is situated bow and the other stern.....about 45 inches apart.......................you do need two servos per voith.............correct? or incorrect.
 
neil.


I have built two tugs with the VS drives and if your fitting them Fwd  / Aft  it would be better to have them port  / starboard but you can mount them both on the center line and then drive them in opposite rotation (this is the same for all mounted positions)
You will need to have two servos per VS drive unit and before you venture into throws of the servo you will need to get the adjustment to zero drive done first, this is so that when the VS is rotating there is NO paddle angle ei no thrust, then adjust the end points of your servos.
A speed controller is optional but I prefer to use them as it will give you far better control at slow speeds (no hard rocking of vessel if you give too much thrust command)
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2013, 07:33:02 pm »


when the VS is rotating there is NO paddle angle ei no thrust, then adjust the end points of your servos.
But how do you get enough thrust (maximum paddle angle) in a short throw of the servos so you don't get a rattling because the control lever is rubbing or striking the guide sleeve?
 
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catengineman

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2013, 08:15:05 pm »

The center control pin does not need to touch the outer ring of the orifice it is in to get to the full paddle position.
I adjust mine so that the servo can move the center pin to its full travel then I back it off so I can see a gnats hair between the in and orifice (if you do this at full throw on two servos then when your only using one servo there will be a slight loss in paddle angle but this will be negligible.
But no noisy drives. They are a bit fiddly to set up but once you have it right the vessel will sit motionless while the drives are at full speed and then with slight movements your craft will have thrust in any direction you want just like the real thing.
If you can adjust your exponential's to that of a more controlled curve you will find that the VS drives will be easier to control and have less harsh drive action from rest to full power I find this so much better when in steering competitions or when I am in close quarters handling of barges and the like
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ixion

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2013, 08:21:12 pm »

What transmitter are you using?
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catengineman

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2013, 08:31:16 pm »

I am using a Futaba FX 18 but I did set up one tug with twin VS drives for my ex captain who had a Spektrum trani.
Im sure you can change all your settings the same as I can as long as you're not in Heli mode.
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Neil

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2013, 09:10:52 pm »

I think a trip to Lowestoft one day is coming up............when I get my hull sorted out, lol.........being absolutely none technical I didn't understand much of that........but am always willing to learn.
 
neil.
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catengineman

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Re: Anyone set up Voiths with Spektrum DX6i
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2013, 10:04:01 pm »

Just checked through a DX manual and there is adjustments for expo so that the "stick" movement is set to a curve rather than the direct linear of normal operation this still gives the servo a full throw (even though it will not need it with the VS drives) but it will give a gentle increase to the paddle angle for a larger movement of the stick this is fully adjustable. (but not in Heli mode)


Before I fit the servo to actuator rod I connect and turn on the four servos which will control the VS units, these will center out to the dead band and or I adjust them via the transmitter STRM (servo center offset) then I will fit the actuator rods and adjust the lengths so that the actuator pin is central to the orifice it is in
I the set up the ATV (servo travel adjustment) this is done first direct to side then to 45 deg angles and as I said before I back off slightly so the pin does not touch the orifice ring (to avoid noise and unnecessary stress on VS unit and servos)
Once this is done I then run each unit at 1/2 speed and operate the servos to make sure there is not too much travel on the servos.
I have my expo set to a negative % this give me a slower servo movement for a faster stick.
I do have lots of other settings which mix and or D/R to give me control in different operations (towing. steering, duck catching etc) but those would take a lot longer to set up and I only know how to do that by trial and a lot of errors, though I knew in theory it was possible I then had to teach myself how to use the transmitter and its functions.


Once you have your VS set up and your model memory saved there are many many hours of fun to be had, and when you enter a steering comp they make you run "backwards" as a handicap not knowing that twin VS have no preference to direction, if the gates were wide enough it would be possible to drive the course sideways just as easy.
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