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Author Topic: COPYRIGHT!  (Read 42103 times)

mermod

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COPYRIGHT!
« on: June 14, 2013, 09:33:34 am »

Does anyone here know anything about copyright law  and how it would apply to a model kit of a full size boat?
As some of you know I'm trying to get some kits into production and wondered how the Model Slipways and Mobile Model Marines of this world tackle this problem, that's if it is a problem I may be worrying about nothing.
Hopefully we have a few legal experts lurking on mayhem
 
Phill
 
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Shipmate60

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 09:57:59 am »

I was in a position a while ago to supply drawings to a model boat manufacturer.
I was able to get permission to reproduce the drawings and manufacture a model for profit.


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baloo

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 11:40:11 am »

Copyrite law is different in EU / OUT OF EU.Why dont you ask "model slipway & mobile marine" (laurie & brian) they wont bite your head off,they would most probably give you the advice you require.baloo(martin)
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Neil

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 12:17:26 pm »

the usual rule of thumb that model manufacturers take is....if the company will supply them with plans of current boats then they have no objection to you producing a kit of the boat........i.e. when I developed the moulds and castings for the Interceptor 42' pilot boat which Models by Design are now using and selling, I approached Frank Kowaski of Safehaven Marine and told him of my hopes and aspirations and he was more than willing to supply me with plans, photos etc.........
 
On the other hand Boatmadman wanted to build an Ulstein X Bow rig support vessel.........and Both I and BMM both emailed Ulstein in Norway to ask for plans and to inform them of intentions.......they never even bothered to reply.....they didn't want their plans copying............so depending on what you want to build and kit............ask the builders/designers................and if they are no longer around, then there's usually no problems anyway................just don't plagerise others works and there should be no problems or difficulties.
 
Even the RNLI are usually good about people kitting their boats, once they have gone into service.
 
neil.
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mermod

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 01:24:27 pm »

Sounds fair and reasonable, thanks for the input.
Phil
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Paul T

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 03:45:00 pm »

As Neil says the best policy is always to ask as most designers are only to happy to help, but all designers despise plagiarism so don't copy without permission.
Paul 
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cos918

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 07:15:49 pm »

On Copy wright I have been told you can not copy wright the shape.
If you were to make a ferry kit . Any livery or logo would need permision of the copywright holder. Any plans you may have ,even if you redraw them by hand would need copywright permision. If you measured the real boat and then drew your own plans then you would not need copy wright permision. the shape of the boat is a free for all .
Best route is speake to the shipyard/ owners of the boat and see what thet say.

John
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StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 08:37:58 pm »


On Copy wright I have been told you can not copy wright the shape.
If you were to make a ferry kit . Any livery or logo would need permision of the copywright holder. Any plans you may have ,even if you redraw them by hand would need copywright permision. If you measured the real boat and then drew your own plans then you would not need copy wright permision. the shape of the boat is a free for all .
Best route is speake to the shipyard/ owners of the boat and see what thet say.

John

Product protection law is very complex and most things can be protected easily, just by producing it nobody can copy it, it is automatically protected under various laws but the company need to be able to pay legal fees to protect it, if its registered it is easier to protect

You can trademark a shape, and register the design as well as patent specific parts of a design , so if copied, even at a different scale then they can be protected
Another way to protect things like cars, boats, aircraft , plastic mouldings etc, (often used) is to make a sculpture of the original ( usual way to make a mould , this can be in electronic format! ). This can be protected being an artwork and then the company licence the use of the sculpture to produce a working item, the working item has paid for rights to use the shape so you can not copy it
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Neil

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 08:56:44 pm »

As Neil says the best policy is always to ask as most designers are only to happy to help, but all designers despise plagiarism so don't copy without permission.
Paul

good to see you on here Paul......was wondering when you were coming over to the dark side, {-) {-) {-) {-)
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pugwash

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 11:12:09 pm »

When you apply for plans from the NMM you have to let them know if this is for any
commercial gain - they dont say so but I can imagine they would charge more if this was the
case.
Geoff
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 11:36:52 pm »

When the Bourbon Orca first hit the sea, several of the first models were censored by Damen.
I heard of two modelers that were asked to remove their builds from bulletin boards during
the first two years after the Bourbon Orca was launched.

Robert Allan Marine Architects is also very protective of their designs.
For different reasons, I have seen three builds of RA designed models censored.
One was due to the potential marketability of the hull.

In other venues, Century 21 Productions, Gerry Anderson is very protective of their designs.
I have heard of numerous "Cease and Desist" orders issued for garage kit models of Space 1999, and
other designs created by Gerry Anderson.

Firefly, Serenity, is another hard line to pass. Joss Whedon, Mutant Enemy Productions and
20th Century Fox Television, are
very quick to issue C&D orders if a small marketable model is created outside of licensing.
One modeler in the UK, stepped up to ask about licensing a model of Serenity and was reported
that the license would cost $8000 USD. No one thought that was so bad until the modeler pointed
out that it was $8000 per model, and that included the eight he had already sold.

Gene Roddenberry or Roddenberry Productions, Lucas Films, Fox television, are all very protective of their "property".
It comes down to "Intellectual Property" rights. If the majority of the public can look at
the model and name a specific ship, or associate it with a specific "brand"(ie: star wars, star trek...etc.)
then the owner of that "brand" is within their rights to issue a C&D letter.

 :((

Pat Matthews

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2013, 03:29:22 pm »

Best to stick to historical subjects! With now defunct corporate owners...

A few years ago, there was quite a ruckus here in the States over railroads demanding licensing fees for model RR subjects bearing their names... and rumblings that the likes of Boeing and General Dynamics would put the kibosh on unlicensed models of their military aircraft. There was a move afoot to lobby for a law disallowing such claims for government-sponsored designs... haven't heard anything recently about it.
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chris gillespie

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2013, 05:19:50 pm »

If its all your own work, its your intellectual property  :-))

Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2013, 07:02:50 pm »

If its all your own work, its your intellectual property  :-))

Yes, that is true.
However if you are marketing a product based on a design or popularity of a known "brand",
then the owners of that brand may step forward and order a Cease and Desist.
More than a few times, I have seen models sold under odd names.
A Space 1999 "HAWK" marketed as "spaceship ciguloo" or a Star Wars ship marketed as "Space Freighter".

Both "garage makers" were issued a Cease and Desist letter within the year of their release.
The space freighter was not even a model of the well known YT-1300, or Millennium Falcon.
It was a model of the obscure Corellian YT-2400. But that obscurity did not stop the legal
team of Lucas Films from issuing the C&D letter.

It is always best to proceed with the utmost caution.

 ok2

TheLongBuild

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2013, 07:06:15 pm »

So when the BBC on Blue Peter showed you how to make a copy Tracey Island the then must have toy they were encouraging every body who made one to break copyright ?.
As far as I can see if I made a model of something using my own build techniques then copyright does not come into it. As for the C&D letters that just sounds like the big boys trying to frighten you into stopping, a bit like the big brand names using Vero on Ebay , but apparently other than on Ebay Vero has no UK legal Standing.
 

chris gillespie

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2013, 07:14:56 pm »

Umi you are replicating models, they are serving the same purpose which probably quite rightly would warrant objections. Starwars is unique and therfore has more intellectual property rights than most ordinary shapes like a ship.
 
If a photographer takes a picture of ulstein xbow, the photographer owns the rights and can sell that image for whatever he/she wants. If your work is your own based on photos etc you cant be touched
 

essex2visuvesi

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2013, 07:17:09 pm »

I wonder if CC lee have a license for their "stingray" model?
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 09:14:08 pm »

 
If major kit manufactures, who have large legal teams, no longer refer to a model as 'range rover', 'jeep', but simply as 4x4 1/4ton utility vehicle because of exorbitant licencing fees, refer Umis post.
 
Companies via their bean counters are waking up that there is money to be had from models being made of their products etc.
 
If making a one of, I wouldn't worry about it, as you can prove intent, but to sell them then you had best dot the "i's" and cross the "T's".
In law ignorance is no excuse.
 
Good luck.
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2013, 09:32:37 pm »

Chris,

I agree with you.

However certain entities including Damen, and Robert Allan will exercise their copyrights
on their designs at their discretion.

I have built a Los Angeles Fireboat #2 designed by Robert Allan.
No one has ever bothered me regarding the build.
I shared my data, that I created with another modeler, and he
later asked if it was okay to release my name, as he had been "reproached"
and questioned where his hull data had come from.
Such a case might be considered "fair use"... in that it used original
data I created for personal use.

However, it can't be denied that this happened... see post 26 by RgA
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1338105

Also, the BRAtt build here on Model Boat Mayhem, that abrubtly stopped,...(among other reasons)

Many modelers across the world build beautiful ship models, some of them agree to
non disclosure contracts to be able to access the plans for those ships.
I, myself have made those agreements, but even then, when I contacted the shipyard
to ask about plans for the Maverick, or Time Bandit, they could not release the drawings.

At the same time, there can be hundreds of models of "starships" out there that never
get tapped regarding the use of "intellectual property rights" and the creators and sellers
go merrily on their way. It very much, ... comes down to the owners of the concept whether the
model is an infringment, or promotion of their design.

 {:-{

chris gillespie

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 09:50:14 pm »

It cant be denied Wolf got the frighteners.
 
I spoke with 4 experts in the field of pattens and intellectual property, about my kit making project, they were all left a little stumped.
 
the concencious is go for it, if there is issues the deal with them as it happens. If you get a cease and dessit then make sure its from a proper legal professional, not some body that could be anybody on a forum. After a few exchanges of legalities which could take months, a picture will form on how much breech if any has occured.
 
After my conversations with the experts, it was concluded it would be very difficult for the big wigs to pursue a case against a model making company because they dont serve the same purpose, ( ref Airfix vs us airforce, where judge ruled they dont serve the same purpose therfore no breech had been made )
 
the lines and positions of things would have to be within points of a millimeter to breach copyright, as long as other intellectual properties such as logo's names of companies etc famous people arent used...or get permission to cover yourself.
 
The upshot of the airfix case was the british raf went and registered the spitfire emblem as a crown copyright, now airfix need to pay royalty for using this.

modboat

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2025, 04:58:55 pm »

I found this topic very interesting from old, and I wondered had there been any other updates.?
Scratch building a model is one thing but what if you build for commercial use.



From what I have gained the following applies.


On full size vessels the Vessel Hull Design Protection Act [/size]protects the design of a full size hull.[/color]
[/size]This does not extend to cover a model boat, even if they copy the full size design to make something for commercial use, as long as not full size.[/color]

[/size]With the above, many people have stated that if you build a model you can not use the original ships logo, or wording, for nameplate etc.[/color]
[/size]This would be due to, the logo or wording, say on a nameplate, would have copyright, and not actually part of the ships design.[/color]
[/size]Perhaps you could not make a model of a dyson vacuum and get away with it, it is too heavy protected. What donut would want to do that anyway.[/color]

[/size]Although we all tread carefully, I feel they would leave us model gods alone, or am I being naive again.??[/color]




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ChrisF

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2025, 06:30:47 pm »

Companies only get interested if there is big money involved. Within the model boat hobby that is unlikely.

As has been mentioned problems only usually apply when something full size is being copied for commercial gain or a model is being sold that has considerable protection as with Star Wars etc.
I can understand ship/boat builders being reluctant to release plans if cutting edge design but if photos become available and a model is made then they can't really do much. The exterior of the boat/ship will look like the full-size one but the interior construction etc. will be nothing like.

When I was working in building construction I remember a court case where one developer sued another because they had copied one of their house designs. But they lost because one detail of the design was changed. Generally speaking things have to be identical for copyright to be infringed and very little in building is. I produced plans for building extensions to the front of a house and a bungalow which were quite "unique" and in each case the neighbours copied my designs. Nothing I could really do about it or worth it financially - just had to accept it as a compliment!   >:-o

If two manufacturers kitted the same model of a full-size boat at the same size as long as the construction is different then no problem. Neither has copyright of the external look of the model. Interesting what would be the case with a freelance model boat design though. But as I said earlier if some part of the construction was changed there shouldn't be a problem though morally there might be? 

It would be interesting if another manufacturer bought out a copy of say the Dragonforce 65 as that sells in high numbers and the manufacturer would consider it viable to take legal action. But as the original is already made in China and will be very efficiently and cost effectively produced then it's not really feasible for anyone to copy and sell it. 
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roycv

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2026, 05:26:44 am »

Many years ago Model Boats issued an apology as they published a plan from a reader of the James Wharram trimaran sailing yacht that they sold full size.  Easy to assume someone who publishes a plan already has permission.
In for instance yachting magazines where there is a drawing for a yacht it is rarely the finished plan actually used.  But anyone can make a copy of anything for themselves.  It is just a matter whether you publish with a view to making a profit.  There is a caveat, that if it is for the purpose of education then the rules are different.

Our web site was persued by solicitors for inadvertantly using a photo to illustrate a talk within the society.  We were persued for a year or so, we took down the photo and ignored the letters and they gave up chasing us.
It is easy to see why but if you do this from China they ignore copywrite, I saw a little while ago kits available from plans first seen in Model Boats magazine and I knew the designer but decided it would be unwise to upset him by telling him as he is bigger than me and more forth right!  Also known to blame the messenger.
Roy
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dodgy geezer

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Re: COPYRIGHT!
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2026, 12:19:01 pm »


IANAL, but modern law has become quite complicated, and, crucially, unpredictable.

There used to be a clear distinction between civil and criminal law. With Criminal law a set of rules were laid down by statute, and if you broke one the police would come looking for you. It used to be obvious to a perpetrator if he was committing a crime, but modern legislation with hate crimes and the concept of 'giving offence' being an opinion of the 'victim' means that it can now be difficult to know whether a crime is being committed at all.

Civil law is rather different. It is closer to a bunch of principles which should be followed when two people are having an argument. Copyright was in the realm of civil law, and therefore the provisions would only apply when someone thought that another was intruding on their 'intellectual property'.  This has now been complicated by the fact that entertainment is a big business, and companies have managed to get copyright breach of streamed films/DVDs etc made into a criminal activity, so that they can get the police to enforce it rather than themselves.  There is also the murky world of trademarks, patents and the complexities of different countries having different rules...

Under Civil law, whether you may be sued for breach of copyright or allied topics such as trademarks is still essentially a choice for the 'injured' party. So from that point of view you are never 'safe' from being sued - if someone wants to allege something against you they can under civil law, even if you can easily prove that you have not done that thing.  This has been used by rich people to attack those they have a grudge against - it is often termed 'the process is the punishment'. If I had a lot of money I could sue some other modeler for some obscure reason, making him spend time and money in order to defend himself.

In practice, civil suits are usually only undertaken where there is a lot of value at stake, though this can be complicated by corporate lawyers looking for work and picking on some small target to justify their existence. RoyCV's reply is a perfect example of a good response - remove the item complained about and go no further, making it obvious to whoever is paying the lawyers that they are wasting their money.

As well as copyright, the use of trademarks on models is another vexed question, since so many full-size vehicles carry prominent sponsorship logos nowadays. The Opel vs Autec case is of interest here, and the ECJ finding well illustrates the complexity and  unpredictability which epitomises modern law. Briefly, using a trademark on a model is OK so long as it is seen by those who view it as an example of scale accuracy, but not if it is seen as an endorsement of the model by the trademark owner.  So the judges can earn some money by deciding. This link provides a succinct explanation:

https://www.mayerbrown.com/Files/Publication/e2a1e5ec-acf4-4d91-b212-2308c5c3d174/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/5f1b2aa4-1c3e-4e50-a87c-1439bc3a8431/ART_GERMANY_JAN08_TRADEMARKS_TOYS.PDF

Don't get me started on the use of Nazi insignia on models in Germany...
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