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Author Topic: fibreglass hull quality  (Read 4301 times)

mermod

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fibreglass hull quality
« on: January 20, 2014, 09:57:40 am »

Hi guys, I need a bit of advice from the group, I have decided that 2014 has to be the year I get serious about setting up my website properly and selling some boats, however, my glass hulls always seem to have small blemishes, nothing serious, just small wrinkles and pock marks.
For me personally I don't see them as an issue, a hull is bought as something that needs sanding, filling, drilling and cutting so a bit of bodyfiller isn't a problem so long as the hull is accurate and without twists, however some might not look at it this way.
Do the hulls available in the UK have any of these blemishes? I have read other forums where complaints have been made about accuracy, twists but I don't have those problems.
Anyway some feedback would be appreciated, I will put up some pics to show the issues I'm having.
I have tried having them molded by professionals but the price was insane and the quality went from hulls that were 6mm thick to ones that never dried out and were always sticky to touch.

Phill




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mermod

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 10:01:56 am »

And this one shows a little wrinkling but other than that it came out great.





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Subculture

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 03:11:27 pm »

Wrinkling of the gelcoat is not an issue I've experienced. It can be caused by a few things- too thick a coating, uneven coverage of gelcoat, applying further coats of resin too early or contaminants on the mould surface.

Wait at least four hours for the gelcoat to cure, it should be tacky when you apply subsequent layers, but a finger nail should not dent the resin. A layer of glass tissue applied first over the gelcoat before applying matt or cloth is advised, this floats better over the gelcoat, and backs it up well. I use traditional wax and PVA for release agents, and sometimes use a bit of hairspray if i have issues with the PVA separatin.

I think most modellers can deal with a few wrinkles or dings provided the basic hull is sound. What is important is that the hulls are not sold as grade 1, and that the purchaser is made aware of the faults before they part with their cash.
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GAZOU

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 04:08:35 pm »

it takes a lot wax mold (15 layers)
must gelcoat stick a little finger but it is hard
must carefully unmold ..... ..... not to break anything

remember that each defect mold can be seen on the hull

we see (curls) that your gelcoat was not hard enough, you put the resin and fabrics too early
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smileyjon

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 08:51:57 pm »

Being a novice builder and on my very first RC kit I personally would not have the confidence to deal with anything other than the smallest of marks.  That was why I chose Model Slipway over some of the other hull /kit suppliers.


However I guess that if I had been building models over many years I would probably cope with blemishes and irregularities better.


Just my thoughts !


Good luck


Jon
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mermod

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 09:22:37 pm »

Thanks for your thoughts guys, subculture, I spray my gelcoat for an even finish and wait atleast 12 to 24 hours before adding matt and resin, I found any sooner and it becomes just one big wrinkle, also I spray my pva release agent after waxing so its all done by the book yet I still have some issues.

Phill
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Subculture

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 09:35:00 pm »

I always brush my gelcoat on. I tend to use three to four coats of wax, which I find is enough. 12 to 24 hours is a very long time to wait. I'm afraid I can't really offer any other suggestions.
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Neil

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 10:19:18 pm »

that wrinkling looks to me like either a silicon is making it's way into the "mix". either a contaminated cloth used for rubbing the wax down or possibly a wax with silicones present in the wax, but as subculture says the resin mix picking up the surface of the gel coat as it itself cures can be a problem.........I leave my gel to resin coats no longer than 12 hours as a maximum before laying up on a gel coat layer...........try a resin mix with a little less catalyst in it to give it a longer setting time, and that may help with it's adhesion to the gel, and not a "scouring" process where it is actually eating in to the gelcoat too quickly

neil..
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NoNuFink

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2014, 10:48:28 am »

Guys, Just for my future info - Are we talking polyester or epoxy resin here?

NNF
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Neil

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2014, 10:53:35 am »

Polyester in my case, and probably Mermods..............don't think you would get that orange peeling with epoxy.
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Circlip

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2014, 11:02:40 am »

Got some crinklies on a glider fusegulge years ago and put it down to the gelcoat not being set enough in one place (make haste and b----r it up) and yes, Polyester.
 
   Do you do a gelcoat with Epoxy? No, not a polyester one, a neepoxy one?
 
  Regards  Ian.
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Neil

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2014, 12:45:54 pm »

I've never used epoxy for mould making Ian................is it similar in usage to polyester resin???
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Subculture

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2014, 01:07:47 pm »

I'm relatively fresh to working with epoxy, but have been using it on the little 1/24th scale Delphin sub I'm working on. The process is similar to polyester work, with a few small differences. One big advantage is that epoxy is almost odourless, and any slight smell it gives off is far from objectionable I find.

You can get epoxy gelcoat, but you work with it a little differently to polyester based gelcoat.
Whereas polyester gelcoat tends to be an air inhibited resin, epoxy resin is basically a thickened lay-up resin, with colloidal silica blended in to bulk it up and avoid it sagging. Many people mix their own epoxy gelcoat, but I find it can be tricky getting the silica to thicken the resin in a consistent way that gives you a nice smooth resin like the pre-blended versions.

When you brush the gelcoat on you leave it for about two to three hours, then apply subsequent layers of epoxy. If you leave it to cure, the subsequent layers won't chemically bind with gelcoat, so you need to rough it up to get a good mechanical bond.

The only reason to use a gelcoat with epoxy would be to resolve detail in the mould, especially if using hand layup. Other than that it's better to go straight in with the glass, and build up with successive layers of cloth, which gives an incredibly strong but lightweight composite.

Epoxy is a much better adhesive than polyester, so you can lay lots of cloth layers without fear of de-lamination, with polyester it's generally advised to put a layer of matt in between two layers of cloth. I tend to use only matt for polyester anyway, as the extra weight isn't much of an issue for the things I work on (Delphin was the exception to the rule), and it's more than strong enough.
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Neil

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2014, 01:32:32 pm »

is it a special cloth and matt that you use for laying up with epoxy subculture, or just the same as with polyester.

neil.
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Subculture

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2014, 01:55:00 pm »

Cloth tends to be compatible with all resin types, as it doesn't contain any binders. I use twill weave fabrics, as they drape well over compound curves.

Chopped matt is different. Most matt is styrene bound, and that isn't suitable for use with epoxy resin systems, as it lacks the styrene content found in polyester that emulsifies with the styrene binder enabling the matt to conform to the surface. However, you can get powder bound chopped matt, which is compatible with epoxy resin (you can use this with polyester too). This tends to only be available from specialist suppliers, and also tends to cost a bit more than styrene bound matt, but is still cheaper than cloth.

The disadvantage with matt over cloth is lower tensile strength, and a much higher resin to glass ratio. Also if you're working on something quite small, I think cloth is a bit easier to work with, and you don't get the mess with glass strands all over the shop.
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Neil

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 02:04:18 pm »

cheers for the info....sounds interesting, :-)) and might give it a go on my next mould.
neil.
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Subculture

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 03:38:15 pm »

Okay. I use reactive resins Syntac EPAFD, which is a really high quality resin at good prices-

http://www.resinstore.com/epoxy-packs.html

However they don't sell cloth, so if you're after a one stop shop, I recommend easy composites, who sell resins and cloth etc. Their resin is more expensive however.

http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/

One last important part, epoxy is much more sticky than polyester, so good mould prop/release is really important with this stuff.
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cdsc123

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2014, 04:16:11 pm »

The pock-marks in the 4th picture are due to cavities in the mold, just under the gelcoat.


As the lay-up heats up the air in the cavity expands causing a dimple in the hull.


The best way to fix these is to fill from the outside, once you have located the cavity grind the mould from the outside without going far enough to go through the gelcoat on the inside surface.

The other problems could be caused by using a heat source to speed up the curing process?
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Circlip

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Re: fibreglass hull quality
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2014, 06:40:17 pm »

I've never used epoxy for mould making Ian................is it similar in usage to polyester resin???

  Snap Neil, me neither but Sub seems to have given a good rundown. Non binders in glass cloth answers how Carbon tows and weaves are laid up in epoxy.
 
  Regards   Ian.
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