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Author Topic: Steam Pressure Gauges  (Read 4478 times)

derekwarner

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Steam Pressure Gauges
« on: December 02, 2015, 01:00:43 pm »

Folks

Could all those with experience having over pressurised a steam/water gauge offer comments & help

1. Two of the [Miniature Steam Gauges C. UK] below have been inadvertently subjected to water pressure beyond their scale
2. Careful stripdown & prepositioning of the pointer appears OK, initial retest to a known value also appears OK
3. The second from the left [3/4" gauge] has not yet been stripped
4. Have the baby Burden tube/s been bent such as to be unreliable?

I have e-mailed Miniature Steam Gauges Co. UK, however as expected  >>:-( they have not responded

Any comments or thoughts greatly appreciated...........

Derek
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
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KBIO

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2015, 06:51:07 pm »

Hello Derek.
In the old days, we used to fix this kind of problem. :-))
Nowadays we throw everything away. I must say that there are not designed for maintenance anymore , though.
If you look at the drawing attached, you will see that there is 3 adjustments to do : scale, linearity & zero.
Looking at the needle of your gauge, the Bourdon's tube has not suffered that much.What I would do (in fact that's all I do in this case %) ), I would reset the zero only.
If there is a difference in reading the pressure, it will not be dramatic. You don't ask your gauges to mesure blood pressure or other vital pressure.
There will be a slight difference, no doubt about it, but you shall hardly notice it for measuring your boiler pressure.
To make sure that your gauges are making properly the job: connect a good one along with the one you just reset and check both.
Play with them until you are confident in your setting.
If the difference is totaly eratic (I doubt), then throw it away. If after a few tests, it seems that the readings are similar, then you won!
(And you ow me a beer! %% )

What I do not do (& recommend),  it is to use fire extinguisher gauges.
The gauge has been reading the same pressure (9 / 12 / 16 bars) for to long and the Bourdon's tube will remember this pressure for ever. It is not reliable at above or below working pressure.
I know some people do. This is their choice. I don't. ok2
Hoping this is of some help, there must be other advices and  ideas.
Best regards. :-)


rhavrane

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2015, 06:59:29 pm »

Bonjour Derek,
I had not dared to disassemble a gauge that has undergone the same concern. Your experience and Kbio's answer + drawing (thanks to him) make me think that I can do it. What are the precautions to be taken to remedy this issue?
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xrad

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 09:03:30 pm »

Derek, You said you emailed UK source?  If you are looking for a new gauge, I have used a local to you source, miniature steam models:

http://www.miniaturesteammodels.com/pressure-gauges


They were quick to answer emails and quick to mail parts to USA.
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derekwarner

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2015, 09:08:40 am »

Thanks all

I have used the suspect gauges on not important locations

1. lube oil pressure  %)
2, engine steam pressure  ;)

So that leaves gas pressure, boiler steam pressure and make up water pump pressure for functional gauges

Derek

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Derek Warner

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boat captain

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 10:08:34 am »

As an instrument maker my main job was manufacturing and repair of pressure gauges.  Depending on the amount of over pressure it tries to straighten the  bourden tube. This means the tube goes out of shape altering it's working range.  I would suggest that you get them checked against a known good gauge, or by whoever does your boiler testing should have the equipment to test them.


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southsteyne2

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2015, 10:24:50 pm »

Hi Derek I don't see the working pressure red mark on the boiler gauge (a must have , also why do you need a feed pump gauge?
Cheers
John
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derekwarner

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2015, 10:42:48 pm »

Hullo John.....well that's two questions

1. the RED line..awaiting boiler pressure test by one of our ILS inspectors who is also an inspector for St George

2. water pump pressure, well I had a few gauges leftover, however I do expect to see a pressure fluctuation between pump discharge over the check valves to boiler pressure

Lube oil pressure......the gauge is confirmed as nackered  >>:-(...so for show only

Derek
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Derek Warner

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southsteyne2

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2015, 10:52:50 pm »

Thanks Derek you are excused {-) I also overpowered my 0-80 psi gauge and had to resort to tapping it but seems to be settling back ok now after a few steam ups
Cheers
John
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derekwarner

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2015, 11:22:50 pm »

Interesting John.......how did you over pressurise your gauge?

When attempting a static boiler test combined with setting the gas regulator pressure, I filled the syphon tube with water to the level of the union, however the pocket of air between the syphon union and the burden tube caused the decay

One extra squeeze on the hand pump [7x6] sent the pressure from 6 Bar to overscale = one dead gauge >>:-(

So in essence, I need to lock 4.5 Bar cold water pressure with ZERO decay to satisfy the inspector, then for my own benefit set the gas regulator from an unrestricted gas flow to metre down to pilot light 'pressure' at just below 3 Bar working steam pressure 

All good fun......... Derek
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
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www.ils.org.au

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2015, 12:30:53 am »

Sticky safety valve so replaced it with new also i will replace the gauge for 0-150 as o-80 does not give enough leeway as the working pressure is 60 psi O0
Cheers
John
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AlexC

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2015, 02:58:43 pm »

Interesting John.......how did you over pressurise your gauge?

When attempting a static boiler test combined with setting the gas regulator pressure, I filled the syphon tube with water to the level of the union, however the pocket of air between the syphon union and the burden tube caused the decay

One extra squeeze on the hand pump [7x6] sent the pressure from 6 Bar to overscale = one dead gauge >>:-(

So in essence, I need to lock 4.5 Bar cold water pressure with ZERO decay to satisfy the inspector, then for my own benefit set the gas regulator from an unrestricted gas flow to metre down to pilot light 'pressure' at just below 3 Bar working steam pressure 

All good fun......... Derek

Hi Derek,

Boiler type = ACSVB-2.

Serial number =  74682.

Working pressure = 45psi.

Initial Hydraulic test pressure (2x wkg.) = 90psi.

Retest Hydraulic Pressure (1.5x wkg.) = 67.5psi.


1. What was your inspector doing testing your boiler to 6 Bar?... that is 2 x working pressure and should not need doing... especially with an attached small pressure gauge with a max capacity of 80psi.
A 2x wkg. pressure test should always be carried out with NO fittings in place.

2. The only test your boiler should need is one at 1.5x wkg. pressure, i.e. 67.5psi... which can be performed with the pressure gauge and other fittings attached, however, the inspector should be sure he can EASILY creep up to this pressure without ANY risk of over pressure... It would seem he did not do this and, in my book, he owes you a new pressure gauge... since, clearly, his test equipment was not up to scratch.

3. There will always be a small amount of air trapped in the bourdon tube with these small gauges and it would NOT be the cause of DECAY... that would be the result of leakage somewhere... possibly through the valves on the hand pump used for testing or elsewhere.
The only time such a small amount of trapped air would cause issues would be if the temperature (ambient) changed drastically... in which case thermal exchange via the walls of the boiler would have more effect.

This is the main reason the test water should be at Ambient Temperature to start with and the test environment should also be reasonably well Temperature Stable (at least for the duration of the test).

4. I would not recommend using a 10Bar (145psi) gauge on your boiler... these small gauges are not very accurate at either end of their scales... typically you would use a gauge of 2x working pressure such that the red line point falls approx MID-RANGE, which is where these small gauges are most accurate... hence the 80psi gauge supplied with your boiler.

Red lining would usually be done with the gauge attached to a SUITABLE test rig fitted with a calibrated and certified test gauge.
This would then be the red line pressure level used during the steam accumulation test.

The inspector could also test the pressure gauge at 1.5 times wkg. pressure using this test rig (and YES there will be some trapped air in the bourdon tube) so this would rule out the DECAY being caused by the trapped air.

If your boiler tester is trying to convince you otherwise then he should not be doing the job. <*<

OK enough said.

How are things with you and the family? are you ready for the Christmas feasting a drinking? (not necessarily in that order).

Best regards, Happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year to you and yours.

Your old Friend. O0

Sandy. :-))
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derekwarner

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Re: Steam Pressure Gauges
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2015, 11:38:49 am »

Dear Sandy........yes we are all fine in OZ thankyou...... [Karina sends a :kiss:]
 
The static boiler [preparation] testing performed when the gauge was over pressurised was my error >>:-(, not of any inspector

Some ten years ago we spoke about and found that our Australian Model Boiler Test Codes differed slightly to that of the Codes in the UK

To highlight the variance's I have copied points 7.3.1 and 7.3.3 from the Australian Code as below

7.3.1 nominates at re-test TP of 1.25 WP, where as your advice on the British nomination is  1.5 WP

7.3.3 this however further clouds if a boiler has been out of service for 12 months+, and what is required to comply

Accordingly to comply with 7.3.3, [worst case scenario].....I opted to reconfirm the original post manufacturing test of 2 x WP

So my plan is to have the boiler retested to comply with our Australian  <*< requirements ......[it will be OK in the end :-))]

[In reflection, I will use a small gas flame to increase the constrained boiler pressure for final + set points]......

Best regards to you & yours......

Derek %)

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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au
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