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Author Topic: Heat insulation  (Read 9494 times)

southsteyne2

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Heat insulation
« on: January 27, 2016, 05:12:19 am »

Hi I need some advice on insulating the underside of my live steam ferry South Steyne superstructure ,I have tried silver foil but it soon disintegrates leaving exposed timber ,the boiler is insulated with timber planks so perhaps someone can recommend a suitable product and or method to overcome this dangerous situation
Cheers
John
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boneash

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 09:43:48 am »

Glass tape, from Screwfix or car accessory shops stuck on with Waterproof PVA glue, it has a higher temperature stability than just PVA.

Would be my suggestion.
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hammer

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 07:38:05 pm »

Toolstation or Screwfix sell soldering mats ideal insulation.  They also have high temperature glue.
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cos918

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 09:27:20 pm »

Hello John
One area to look might be car heat proof matting . Buton power were all ways good when I was in to high powerd fords . You might also want to look at forced air flow. You can get cheep computer fan on Ebay from 99p. you could use 2 fan in push pull formation forcing cold air in and hot air out .


http://www.burtonpower.com/thermotec-aluminised-heat-barrier-20x18-tec14061.html


John
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mrsgoggins

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 06:14:31 am »

Do you really need to lnsulate, I don't in my wooden TID and have had no problems? If you have insulated under the boiler planking that should be enough - if the boiler planking doesn't overheat, neither will your hull.


Keith
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 12:23:41 pm »

Hi John,
As Keith says if you have insulation below the wooden slats there shoudn't be a problem but by the sound of your post I don't think that you have insulation below the timber and it's wood direct on to the boiler.

I had a similar problem with my Scotch return flue boiler in a tug but it was the burner that was doing the scorching of the hull as the burner went underneath the smoke box so there was no protection to the hull.

As the boiler had been in the boat for a number of years and the insulation was beginning to get a bit taty I decided that it was time for a refurb.

In the U.K. we have suppliers that stock boiler insulation for the Loco guys, it's Ceramic wool 1/4" thk but compresses to 1/8" thk so if you contact your local Model Engineering Society who run locos they could point you in the right direction to find a supplier.

I used the ceramic wool and recovered the boiler and held it all together with Stainless steel from an old pedal bin, which was .015" thk, cut all the appropriate holes and held it all together with cable zip ties, left an over lap at the underside of the boiler and used small self tappers to hold it all together before removing the zip ties.

As you can see in one of the pics there are 4- blobs of Milli Put placed in the hull and the boiler was pressed down on them while still soft, this created a cradle with a small, air space below, you can see the scorching from the heat of the burner.

The boiler is 4.75" dia and 5" between the end plates  with 19 return tubes from the fire box to the front smoke box, it's all a bit of a squeeze but now there isn't any problem of heat transfer.

If you have the space you could do similar to your boiler and you would have no fear of a fire, just a suggestion.

George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2016, 09:28:38 am »

Hi George how you been? Hope everyone is ok ,my boiler did have industrial adhesive aluminium under the planking and also under the top deck but it has been there for 6 years now and is quite a mess (see pic .
I was hoping someone may have an alternative product or method to use but if not then I suppose I will use the same again
Cheers
John
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JimG

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2016, 01:48:39 pm »

Another good source for heat insulation materials is model turbine flyers. With the exhaust temperatures normally over 500 degrees some good insulation is needed.
See  ceramic blanket http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6344  and ceramic paint http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=6343 .
I have used the ceramic paint as insulation over balsa wood around the exhaust of a turbine with no problems. It is water based so slow to dry but does give good results.

Jim
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 06:08:47 pm »

Hi George how you been? Hope everyone is ok ,my boiler did have industrial adhesive aluminium under the planking and also under the top deck but it has been there for 6 years now and is quite a mess (see pic .
I was hoping someone may have an alternative product or method to use but if not then I suppose I will use the same again
Cheers
John


Hi John,
Yes we are all doing well apart from age related ailments ( Arthritise ) and other things, we are being bombarded with high winds gusting to 80 mph with heavey showers of rain and snow.

John is the pic you have posted the underside of the deck, if so I would highly recommend Ceramic wool or Blanket whatever you can get.
It would be ideal to protect the super struckure of your boat, I use Ceramic wool in the housing of my Flashsteam coil which gets Temps above + 500 C with no problem.

I also use it to wrap around items when I am Silver soldering especially boiler shells to braze in the end caps and keep the heat on the bits that are to be soldered.
You can actually put a blow lamp burner on one side and putyour hand at the other side without burning your self.

If you can't find a supplier P.M. and I can buy what you need and post it to you, it may take a while as the Customs in OZ are not very quick at clearing items in Padded bags.

George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2016, 05:14:22 am »

Thanks George realy appreciate your kind offer, however I have done a bit of searching closer to home on ebay and found this (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1260-CERAMIC-FIBRE-PAPER-610-1mm-3mm-6mm-Buy-by-METRE-or-ROLL-Temp-1000-C-/151359855537?var=&hash=item233dc01bb1:m:mMmMtdXwths0sDCj4L2_fmQ I should have had this when I attempted my new boiler as could not get enough consistant heat so it is put aside for another go.
BTW we have all the weather things you mentioned plus 30 df with flooding and thunder all in the same day.
Cheers
John
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2016, 05:52:33 pm »

Hi John,
Had a look at your supplier and although I have never used Ceramic paper I am sure that this would do the trick.
Why not buy some 1mm thk and 3mm thk  as you can buy it by the Metre, a Metre of each would last a while and cover a few boilers.

A friend of mine , now deceased, used Ceramic paper on his boiler whith good results, he soacked it in Wall paper paste, covered the boiler and tied the Ceramic on with string, dryed it over night in his heating boiler cupboard and it shrunk tight around the boiler and then he planked it, it smelled like hell on his first fire up but it soon cleared.

Good find.

George
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muleears

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2016, 08:43:32 am »

I know you may have tried this or something like it but I wrapped my boiler with it, then planked it and it seemed to work well.


http://www.mcmaster.com/#fiberglass-sheets/=10zgi07


I believe I used the 0.125 (roughly 1/8") thickness and six inches wide (which fit the length of my boiler).  Withstands up to 1000*F.
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Geoff

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2016, 01:59:13 pm »

Depending on how much room you have I used very thin alloy sheet below the superstructure with a 1/4" gap which was filled with loft insulation.


If there is very little room (as there is in my steam powered Velox, I used radiator foil - thin layer of insulation with silver foil already fixed on to the reflect heat. It works quite well.


Geoff
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xrad

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2016, 03:31:40 pm »

I use header wrap. works great as long as not exposed to direct flame . Something similar to this:


http://www.amazon.com/010127-Titanium-Exhaust-Header-Wrap/dp/B002R4U72I
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2016, 12:03:32 pm »

Thanks everyone for your help however I have bought the ceramic paper and it works fine one can silver solder boilers with this wrapped around :-)
Cheers
John
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2016, 04:28:26 pm »

Thanks everyone for your help however I have bought the ceramic paper and it works fine one can silver solder boilers with this wrapped around :-)
Cheers
John

Hi John,
Great to hear that you have found the correct material, what thickness did you use,  1mm or 3mm.

George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2016, 11:50:43 pm »

Hi George i used both 1mm and 6mm used 1mm for under superstructure and 6mm for my new upright boiler which unfortunately has a small hole around one of the tubes any ideas as can,t seem to get it clean enough for solder to run
Cheers
Joihn
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2016, 12:04:06 am »

Superstructure 1mm ceramic paper
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2016, 09:02:36 am »

Hi George i used both 1mm and 6mm used 1mm for under superstructure and 6mm for my new upright boiler which unfortunately has a small hole around one of the tubes any ideas as can,t seem to get it clean enough for solder to run
Cheers
Joihn

John,
Sorry to hear that you have a leak at one of thre tubes.
You have to rememeber that S/S takes 25% more heat to remelt,
I would put the offending end back in the acid bath to kleen it, make up some flux paste and put around the hole and just keep on heating the boiler untill it's a dull red and if you can hit it with a solder rod you will find that the new solder will run , if not just keep as much heat on the boiler, don't forget to spread the torch around the whole top of the boiler  occasionaly and keep the insulation all around the boiler to save heat loss.

Another method is to clean in the acid bath, dry off and cut a small piece of solder about 1/4" long , flux around the joint , put the piece of solder over the hole and re heat  and keep as much heat as you can on the joint untill the new solder runs.

Have another look at my post with the insulation all around, that particular boiler had a pin hole in 2- places I did as described and it sealed the only difference was that I fluxed the whole top again..

George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2016, 05:33:08 am »

 Hi all fixed pinholes by using my dremmel pointed burr and forcing citric acid from inside the boiler through the holes with compressor and then plenty of flux but soon found I needed to heat the whole boiler and not just the immediate area for the silver solder to run I’m learning this is my first go so hopefully better next time, thanks George (ooyah/2 for your very helpful hints :-)) .
Cheers
John
 
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2016, 12:57:41 pm »

Hi John,
Great news and glad that you now have it sealed, don't forget a hyraulic test to make sure that all is well.
Once you get things sorted your Ferry will run for many years.

Regards
George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2016, 12:30:15 am »

 Thanks George I hydraulic test up to 120 psi twice working pressure and held ok no leaks (whew ,this boiler will be for my wideawake launch and was hoping you or other members may have ideas for setting up the ceramic burner for a vertical boiler ,boiler size 4 inch x 4 3/4 inch 17- ½ inch tubes
Cheers
John
 
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2016, 10:37:11 pm »

Hi JOhn,
THe launch is a beaut, I have quite a few Ceramic burner designs by Sandy C, unfortunately I am bed bound with severe Sciatica so when I get a bit better I will send some drawings to you.
If Sandy C is looking in he may possibly send some drawings to you.

Regards

George.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2016, 06:32:19 am »

Thanks George I hope things improve for you
John
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ooyah/2

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Re: Heat insulation
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2016, 04:50:28 pm »

Thanks George I hope things improve for you
John

Thanks John, your thoughts are appreciated,  I have never experienced such pain at the hospital where they forced my leg over to get a pic of my Pelvis.
Results are that there is no hair line carcks or Blood clots.

I wonder why these girl Radiographers and nurses are such beautifull young ladies, it just means that one has to control ones tongue in bouts of pain


Thanks again
George.
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