Topic: A little expert advice required please. (Read 9581 times)

Antipodean · « **on:** January 30, 2016, 10:37:41 pm »

Just needing a little expert advice. Does anyone know anything about these engines or boilers and if you do are they any good at all?
The engines all look impressive but the boilers worry me a little as when you can actually see down the flue they seem to have a knot of copper pipe in some of them. I would like to use the engines in a larhe model but boilers seem to be few and far between for a large steam plant. Thanks in advance folks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/371500881246?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151382006324?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

SailorGreg · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2016, 02:15:28 pm »

As you have had no replies, I'll offer my view for what it's worth - I am definitely no expert, as I own just one steam engine.

The engine looks nice and is an attractive price. However, without actually seeing and checking it (or having some reliable testimonials), you can't know how well it is built. It might be a superb piece of machinery giving many years of faultless service. Equally it might be machined just well enough to fit together, and be little more than a piece of decorative junk. I would guess it is probably perfectly serviceable with some careful tweaking (are you happy with adjusting the valve timings?), but that is just a guess. Buying it would be risky, but you could well strike lucky.

The boiler is a different matter. There is no mention of a test certificate, and even if there was I wouldn't trust it. If you buy this boiler, the very first thing you should do is give it to qualified inspector to put it through a pressure test. You may well have to remove that nice wooden cladding so the inspector can see the construction and soldering, so that might spoil the appearance depending on how well you can put it all back again afterwards. I also feel that the boiler is quite small for the volume of the engine, and run times will be quite short unless you are going to top the boiler up while running. The "knot of copper pipe" is OK, it puts some of the waste heat from the burner back into the steam before it is sent off to the engine.

Overall, for the price you might get a good value steam plant, but you will need to put in some effort before you can run it safely and efficiently. You might also waste your money, and frankly there is no way to tell in advance - unless someone else here has already gone down this route.

As I said, I am no expert. If it was me, I might risk the money on the engine, but probably not on the boiler.

Good luck - and if you do go ahead, do let us know how things work out.

Greg

rhavrane · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2016, 03:43:06 pm »

Bonjour Antipodean,
As French collector who buys, I have had several bad experiences by getting something without having seen the product, and, furthermore, the barreer langage does not help, so, now, I fear buying several hundred euros without knowing the manufacturer.
I I fully agree with Greg, especially because the steam machine is a 5,88 cm3 ==> it needs steam and for my 5 to 7,5 cm3 I us a minimum of 100 x 160 mm hrizontal boilers.
If you are ready to pay for a Stephenson reverse machine and appropriate boilers you would chooze, I would kindly suggest you to watch these sites :
Anton : http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/
JMC : http://jmc.vapeur.free.fr/
They speak English, with a little accent

Antipodean · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2016, 10:48:07 pm »

Thank you Greg and Raphaël, very helpful indeed.
The boilers do look very small from that company and they have some huge engines available.

The JMC and Anton sites are amazing, lots of choices, sadly not as much bank account to go with them but still a much better option than an unknown and unreviewed company.

BarryM · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2016, 11:21:09 pm »

Put 'Microcosm' in the Search box and you will find a lot of info about other products from this company on the Forum. I had one of his feed pumps and it was very nicely made and effective.

You will have to get some figures for the engine steam demand and see how they match up with the boiler output. Since Maccsteam closed, a source of good quality, reasonably priced boilers has gone but they do turn up on Ebay occasionally.

BM

Antipodean · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2016, 03:52:23 am »

The sad thing about living in America is that there is no requirement for testing boilers, until too late. The marine steam side of things is lacking too, it is mostly for railways if you can find it at all. Looks like most of my shopping will have to be in England or France.
From what I am seeing I will have to find a large boiler and also have a fairly good sized resovoir with either a mechanical or electric pump to keep the boiler topped up.
I would love to have a Stuart Turner triple expansion engine but that would be in a perfect world where SWMBO agrees it is a neccesity

jpdenver · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2016, 04:09:58 am »

Greetings from Denver,

I have one of these. It is a nice little engine, clean, and powerful.
The owner of Microcosm is named "Jin" and I have written to him on a number of occasions.
His "English" is somewhat lacking, but he is very accommodating.

I have used this engine in my Borkum, but later traded that for a Clyde.
(It was too powerful).

My latest build uses one of the last Maccsteam Boilers, and is going into a
a free-form build.

Here is a test run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4oflrQC5Fs&feature=em-upload_owner#action=share

I recommend this engine, but would pick up a boiler from "miniature steam" in Australia.
order from them direct - much cheaper than some of the US dealers.

Hope this helps,

Regards,
Jim Pope
Denver

Antipodean · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2016, 05:57:05 am »

Thanks Jim, very helpful.
The only drawback is the shipping from Australia, but I am sure you could let me know the damage on that as I live in Tennessee.

jpdenver · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2016, 03:01:38 pm »

Hello again.

When I went on a search for a boiler, and found the Aussies, http://miniaturesteammodels.com/
I compared their prices and shipping VS the folks that handle their stuff in the US.
I found I paid about 2/3 the US price even including the shipping.

I suggest you buy a BIG boiler (assuming you can get it to fit) as the "headroom" comes in
very handy.

Write to the Aussies, they are very good to respond and no-translation-needed. Their stuff
is ROCK SOLID.

I would also suggest a BIX Gas Regulator from Forest Classics. You might have to wait for one,
I wrote to him and got put on a waiting list for two of them - took a couple of months.

Another suggestion is one of the ball-bearing prop shafts from Harbour Models. They will custom
make them- I suggest you call Nick there, the email on the website is iffy.

I hope this helps you or others out. I did not mean to presume too much, everyone has their
favorite places.

Regards,
Jim

Antipodean · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2016, 05:30:50 pm »

Thanks again Jim, I had a look at the sites I hadn't seen before, Harbour Models is an old "friend" of mine so that is good.

The 4" boiler would be my best bet, and with what it is for I could fit 2 side by side in it, only neeed the one though, anything else is overkill.

I will look again Jin's engines again as it will be pushing a very large Brooklyn Harbour tug and will be turning a 5" four blade prop, the 4" boiler is the biggest I have found and with a suitable reservoir and a pump I should get some good cruise times.

The current build is huge and the plans for the one after requires 2 steam plants both turning 5" props. It will be a long time before I get the parts for that one.

Cheers Ian

jpdenver · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2016, 11:44:43 pm »

Ian,

FYI

Jin has built engines as large as a V12.
So with your 5 inch props - you might
want to look at those.

You might need to email him.

ALSO -

Look here:
http://www.myford-lathes.com/steam.htm

This is where I got my Maccsteam Boiler from.
Very honest, very easy to work with - except you need to use bank transfers.

Post your build!

Regards,
Jim Pope

Antipodean · « **Reply #11 on:** February 13, 2016, 06:26:02 am »

So I have been looking, and reading ,and reading some more and now the wife has started to come around to the idea that a steam plant is a great "investment".

I am working on the idea that it will be for my 61" (155 cm) Harbour tug, high displacement, not sure how much exactly yet.

I am looking at a Stuart Compound Launch engine to push it but I am having a problem finding a boiler to run it. Most available will run it but not provide the power needed to drive it as I would like. Any ideas on where to find a boiler that can give a 90lb monster the right oomph?

This is the start of the tug http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47433.msg481802.html#msg481802

rhavrane · « **Reply #12 on:** February 13, 2016, 09:16:18 am »

Bonjour Antipodean,
May I suggest you another possibility ? Based on my own experience, I have three large tugs (Jan 1,20 m/21 kg, Moulay-Idris 1,30 m /31 kg, Côte d'Emeraude 1,37 m / 35 kg), they all have a Stuart D10 (or equivalent Reeves Warrior MK3) and "small" boilers (+/- 1,5 l) BUT the two first have a coupled water feed pump ==> their autonomy is limited by the gas tanks.

I assume that your tug will weigh about 40 kg ++ (this Cap-Sizun is 1,60 m long and weighs 46 kg) ==> You will be happy if it has a large autonomy ! And the water pump (coupled, not electric

) associated to a standard boiler with a great heater can be an answer to your concern.
Furthermore, I do not know the Stuart compound machine, I fear it is less common than the D10, so more expensive, so, a D10 could be an alternative.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 13, 2016, 09:58:18 am »

Quote from: Antipodean on February 13, 2016, 06:26:02 am

So I have been looking, and reading ,and reading some more and now the wife has started to come around to the idea that a steam plant is a great "investment".

I am working on the idea that it will be for my 61" (155 cm) Harbour tug, high displacement, not sure how much exactly yet.

I am looking at a Stuart Compound Launch engine to push it but I am having a problem finding a boiler to run it. Most available will run it but not provide the power needed to drive it as I would like. Any ideas on where to find a boiler that can give a 90lb monster the right oomph?

This is the start of the tug http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47433.msg481802.html#msg481802

Hi Always remember that the Stuart compound is not self starting but the D10' are.

George.

rhavrane · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2016, 12:45:18 pm »

Bonjour George,
You are absolutely right, but I was given a solution I applied on my triple expansion JMC installed in my tug Saint-Charles, I added a second RC steam valve on a derivation to the second cylinder

Antipodean · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2016, 02:00:28 pm »

It is interesting that the Stuart site does not mention whether an engine is self starting or not. The D10 it is then, with the addition of a reversing gear.
The water reservoir has been part of my steam plant design with a mechanical pump, there is so many components to a large long running steam plant.

Thank you George and Rafael.

rhavrane · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2016, 04:40:55 pm »

Bonjour,
Stuart does not mention if a machine is self reversing, nor any other manufacturer, because I would imagine they think it is obvious... for people who know about it. Furthermore, the site presents a compound machine with Stephenson's reverse !
Any machine with multiple cylinders in parallel (crankshaft stalled at 90 or 120 degrees) is self reversing (except single acting speed machines) and manufacturers like Typhoon Motors (see TM1 wih option) are able to build self reversing mono !
Always based on my experience, you could also imagine no water reservoir in the hull (weight, balance, room to have water enough and water leaks) but a hydrant with a little water filter.
Thinking about the whole plant and its isntallation in the hull with possibility to acceed easily to it is VERY important before you build the boat because after, it is always a big mess to work on it...
On my Jan, kit built at the beginning for a small 8 cm3 machine, the bridge was glued before I realized the main entrance was 10 cm width when my second hand D10 associated boiler, bought later, was 12,5 cm...

Great sad moment when you have to re open it with an electric saw... And hopefully, I could !
Other point to be taken in account, the propeller. A minimum of 4,5" 4 blades is required for your boat esspecially if you install a poweful machine which would run slowly, and it should be horizontal ==> double cardan or gears must be planned at the beginning of the constrution, taking in account the fact that the weight has to be as low as possible, even for a large boat.

xrad · « **Reply #17 on:** March 02, 2016, 01:40:55 am »

Antipod: Don;t get a compound or a triple for your 61 inch boat. Both are difficult to start/reverse. Best engine is a Stuart 'Marine' twin or a Mildura twin. Mildura comes with reversing gear and is reasonably priced. I own two and they are excellent. consistent smooth runners at slow speed, F + R. All stainless+ bronze except the crank. The mildura with 50 psi has more than enough power to turn a big 5 or 6 inch 4 blade prop. A horizontal 4 x 8 in boiler with internal fire tubes will be fine. I use a 3 x 5 boiler with external water tubes and it is fine.

Antipodean · « **Reply #18 on:** March 02, 2016, 03:26:04 am »

Thanks xrad, I watch your builds and kind of know you have a lot of experience with this stuff. I watched your boiler build on your latest boat and have got a hankering to build my own. Been a few years since I did any silver soldering though so I may have to do a bit of practice first.
I have sourced the copper I need already, just need to check if the solder I have already is suitable, once I can dig it out of storage. Where is a good source for solder and flux if I need to get any? I know the local stores won't have what I need.
I may also have to go with a smaller engine as I don't have a lathe or mill to work on a casting set and will have to buy a pre machined one.
The wife has said I can have steam, just not an engineering shop.
I am looking at building a 4" x 8" horizontal boiler, still trying to find the best source for fittings, they are what bumps the cost up.
I have a huge area to place my steam plant in as tug has a ton of room inside it. With the ballasting it requires I could fit a 6" x 10" boiler with a gallon water tank in there but that is definitely overkill.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 02, 2016, 02:46:26 pm »

Antipodean.

Being a life long admirer of Stuart D10 and have built many D10 &10V,s I would recommend this to you as xrad has suggested. (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/251766581343?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT )

It looks like a copy of a D10 but much cheaper, a D10 R.T.R. from Stuart is just over £1000 + V.A.T. which you being out of the E.U. wouldn't have to pay V.A.T. only shipping and possibly import duty to U.S.A.

The MILDURA comes complete with Stevenson reverse gear which the D10 doesn't. look them up and see what they have, these are well built engines , how they get away with such a direct copy of a D10 I will never know.

How is" Good old Rocky top " at this time of the year.

George.

xrad · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2016, 02:55:01 pm »

I buy my copper off ebay for 'K' pipe 3", plate from ebay or Online Metals (fast shipper, sometimes a bit pricey) . Got some 4in copper pipe from online metals, but was expensive (for thick wall)..

Silver solder I get from local welding company. Harris safety silv. I make many of my own fittings on an inexpensive lathe. You may be able to talk 'her' into a 'small' machine shop bench with small lathe and drill press/mill..... You will use it for many things, and within about 2 years, you will have recouped the cost.

Antipodean · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2016, 08:11:13 pm »

I was given 3 coils of Harris Safety Silv 45 3/32, not sure what the 5 T.O. means. I will have to get some flux, I have one local agent for it.

The first boiler I will make is probably a horizontal 3" x 6", I will use it for a TVR1a in small tug.
This is all going to be practice for the Harbour Tug plant.
I have plenty of time to sort out what I need for the tug as it is 4th in the queue for builds thank to a couple of projects I have to finish for the widow of a late friend.

xrad · « **Reply #22 on:** March 05, 2016, 12:14:00 am »

It will be great to see you build your boiler!

TO= troy oz. I use Harris safety silv 45. this is very good solder. It is very strong and it flows great with Harris StaySilv flux (not stay clear flux). . you can get in in a container with built in brush. Takes about 1100 degrees to flow nicely. You can solder the fire tubes/end plates and have no fear of soldering the bungs later because it definitely takes more heat to re-melt the solder 2nd time around.

Since you will be doing a bunch of brazing, I recommend buying the Harris 76315 5oz 45%. The bulk buy is much sometimes a bit cheaper at the local shop and you may save some on shipping rather than buying 5 x 1oz size.

The above is a 1/16th wire , so not so easy to work with for the small stuff. Sometimes I hammer it out to a thin strip. I usually get a few yards of the thin silver brazing wire from English vendors for the fine work like soldering pipe ends, etc....
you will definitely need a propane torch to get the heat right. I used this one from ebay, 26$. cut and paste:

New Portable Propane Weed Torch Burner Fire Starter Ice Melter Melting w/Nozzles

Antipodean · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2016, 12:57:21 am »

Would a plumbers butane torch work for silver solder?
I haven't done any brazing in about 30 years so I am way out of practise so I will be sorting out a few small pieces to get back into the swing of it.
When I started my first apprenticeship I used to work with lead insulated cables and had to learn how to do lead wipes to repair damaged cables. Luckily we change to heatshrinks during my first year. Still have a couple of scars from lead splashes though.
The brazing I learnt as a toolmakers helper at an engineering company and got pretty good at it, low quality solder though.
Should be a lot of fun and I will post progress pics as they come up.

ooyah/2 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2016, 08:27:58 pm »

Quote from: Antipodean on March 05, 2016, 12:57:21 am

Would a plumbers butane torch work for silver solder?

Absolutely not, it's O.K. for brazing very small components but not for brazing up a copper boiler.
You will need a Seivert type burner linked up to eithr a 4.5kg Propane tank or Butane, don't waste your time or effort with such a small heat soarce.

George.

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Author Topic: A little expert advice required please. (Read 9581 times)