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[Liverbudgie2]

Are there alternative venues which could be used at less cost? Obviously not easy to find when property is worked intensively as it usually is these days. Ellesmere Port is currently becoming popular but I'm not sure what the economics of that show are like - perhaps someone can enlighten us?

Colin

Not good with little interest being shown by the Museum apparently.

In my experience all model shows, of whatever discipline, have a birth, two or three years of life followed by a slow painful death. The cause of which could put down to: the same models in the same place just sitting there and not doing anything, the same people and traders that you met a couple of weeks previously at the other end of the country, the same weekend year after year and probably the most important of all, the age demographic of those attending shows.. I was shown a chart a few weeks ago which climbs inexorably from 55 onwards to 80 or so then just drops off a cliff - so to speak.

LB

[Martin (Admin)]

Has anyone ever asked the National Maritime Museum  ( Greenwich, London )  if they would be interested in hosting a model boat show?

[Liverbudgie2]

There was one about twenty years ago which was very good but, I think some of the people there had a large does of apoplexy about all these plebs camping and playing with their toy boats on the front lawns.

LB

[tigertiger]

My thoughts on the discussion so far. \


I think there is value in diversifying the kinds of models being displayed, as evidenced by earlier postings. There really is not point trying to be elitist. I think a lot of us here started with Airfix type models. Many of the skills are transferable from one type of modelling to the next. I think many of use could learn a lot about paint detailing and weathering from World of Warcraft modellers, mostly under 20 years old. The railway modellers are also excellent in this field. Even on Mayhem we now have discussion about 3D printing and even programming.


Costs for show exhibitors are going up. Floor rents, electricity, etc. This is only right as the venues running costs go up year on year. Many council facilities barely ever cover the true costs.


The other thing, not mentioned yet, is that people have less money for hobbies at the moment, irrespective of age etc.. With the best will in the world, and real desire sometimes, many people just don't have as much spare cash as before. I see many posts on Mayhem from people who are obviously struggling to maintain their hobby, and even a few from who maybe cannot afford the hobby at the moment, but still have a lot to add to the community by sharing skills and experience. The affects the traders especially, and will reduce the range of new products that could be available, the number of traders in the market, and the shows that can be visited.

[tigertiger]

Someone mentioned village halls.


A greatly under used resource. As so many people who visit model shows travel so far, does it really matter if it is not in a big town. More local shows is one possible way to go. Maybe organise something at the same time as your local jumble sale.


You will not get the traders, but the pleasure of show and tell for local clubs, to perhaps people who would never go to a model show is worth considering. It would be a totally new audience. And perhaps a recruitment opportunity for local clubs.

[Rottweiler]

Just like to add my comment?
As an exhibitor at both the Blackpool,and the Warwick shows,I really do like attending both.Blackpool works out very expensive for me,as I have to pay for accommodation for my wife and myself,the cost of fuel for a near 900 mile trip,plus refreshments during the day. But I go for the company,and to meet friends I may only see once or twice a year,and most important,to display my models.Blackpool itself was a vast improvement this year,and allowing different types of models in,was a stroke of genius and I hope there will be even more variety next year.
Warwick Show,on the other hand,is a much cheaper option,for me,a round trip of 500 miles,and the cost of a campsite for my motorhome for four nights plus the cost of food etc.
My only complaint if any,re Warwick,is that you have to be a Club exhibit.I am in a club of some 30 odd members.mainly elderly,and basically I am the only one who will do long distance displays.If it wasnt for being on Steves Top Ten Table for the last two years,I would not be allowed to enter.Even though I will have two large never seen before models to display next year.I only want to show my models and talk to the public,and I am not interested in vying for the Best Club Stand etc,How many new names have been added to that in the recent years I wonder?
It is again a wonderful show,and I thought this years was very well attended,with a great friendly atmosphere.Staff at both venues are very helpful,and polite.
As far as youngsters are concerned,out of our 30 members,we have one youngster,my grandson,and he doesnt attend very often.In all honesty we have found we make keep a youngster until he discovers what girls are for lol,and then we dont get a look in.

[Geoff]

Having been a life long modeller and over the last 20 years or so have attended a number of shows (not often as an exhibitor unfortunately) I think the various posts here have summed up the situation quite well. Alexander Palace was the best ever about 10 years ago absolutely rammed but as people have said time has move on and the way the hobby sells itself needs to move on - the internet.


1) The overheads for traders to display have inexorably risen to the extent for a lot it becomes a marginal exercise to attend. As the number of traders reduce the footfall reduces.


2) In the past such shows were seen as both fascinating displays to see other models but also to pick up parts and bits at trade prices but as overhead costs go up they become less attractive as the traders quite naturally have to meet their costs.


3) We need more models to display as sometimes the numbers are lower than one would like. One issue I have is that such shows are (understandably) geared to club displays as the organisers need to guarantee a display for all 2-3 days for the public to see.


4) Some clubs are reticent about attending with member unwilling to travel and be there for three days is difficult to organise. If the show is 2-3 hours drive away it makes for a lot of driving or expensive overnight accommodation which collectively puts people off.


5) Would it be possible to have a section for individuals to attend and display - kind of first come first serve basis - or to book for a specific day only - difficult I know but it may develop more interest and get more models and modellers through the door.


6) I went to Warwick for the first time this year and whilst I found it hard to find (not very good signposting). I thought the show was really very good with a very large number of different models and a good number of traders so very much on my list for next year.


7) The real problem I see is vendor cost overheads and venue costs which in turn translate into admission costs which can put some people off. Trader costs means less deals which mean less attendance so its a downward spiral.

Candidly I don't know the venue costs and what it costs to put on a show but I suspect its really very high but why is the question?

Lots more discussion to be had I think

Cheers

Geoff

[Geoff]

I meant to add what does it really cost to host a show - does anyone know the actual figures so we can see if there are savings to be made anywhere?


G

[Colin Bishop]

There is of course another elephant in the room which can be summed up as lack of energy. Back in the 70s and 80s I was very active in the hobby being a leading light in the former Berrylands club in Surbiton where we pioneered new course designs and participated enthusiastically in the extensive MPBA Scale Section programme of events. Later on, along with others, I did a stint as MPBA Scale secretary, wrote a monthly column plus other articles for Model Boats, built a couple of award winning models in the cupboard under the stairs and spent the summer month weekends driving all round the country attending regattas and other events. Somehow I also found time to hold down a full time job and bring up a family. We even built our own large conservatory on the back of the house. I now look back on those days and wonder how on earth did I manage it all?

Now I am retired, family grown up, time is my own but the prospect of plunging back into the club scene and organising events etc. simply doesn't appeal. Firstly I don't have the energy, I am no longer as agile as I would like to be and while I will always enjoy making, and sometimes sailing, model boats I do have other interests which compete for my attention.

I suspect that I am hardly alone in this respect so while the number of model boaters is generally declining, so are the overall energy levels devoted to the hobby which weakens things even further.

It is clear on Mayhem that we have many regular posters who I think probably don't actually do much modelmaking at all. It's always less effort to talk about it and dispense sage advice rather than actually doing it! I imagine that there are many others like myself who have found a level in the hobby which they are comfortable with and have little incentive to expand. Progress slows down as you develop more patience so if you need a day or two to allow some paint to harden, well, you can come back to the job later in the week sometime - no rush, other things to do! Something I wouldn't have tolerated in my younger days.

And then of course there is health and problems in that area can really impact on your hobby. Quite apart from chronic conditions, things that you would once have shrugged off in a day or two can lay you low for a week or more. I went down with a cold after returning from Telford and have felt rotten all week with a hacking cough which has meant sleepless nights and no appetite - I haven't been near the workshop all week despite buying some needed items for the latest project at Warwick which I am actually quite keen to finish after 12 years or so...

As our American friends would say, getting old sucks!

Colin

[Steve Dean]

I would like to say thank you to the way this thread is being conducted. The inputs are well reasoned comments and there is a sensible attitude regarding the associated costs vis-a-vis permanent exhibition venues (such as Warwick) and that incurred with hiring a venue for 2 or 3 days.
Given that we are all adults and know that it is impossible to please all the people all the time, I can inform you that this thread is being read by the appropriate parties and inputs are being noted and are being put into the melting pot as plans are formulated for next year.
Thank you for input gentlemen.
Steve.

[Crossie]

 I can offer a couple of comments, one as a modeller who after many years involvement just as many others is less 'religious' about their hobby largely due to the same reasons as Colin succinctly listed, but also from experience as a trade exhibitor though not of modelling goods but nevertheless those of a minority interest. My wife and I drove thousands of miles per year from Wales north to Glasgow and south to Exeter and anywhere in between, and due to the costs of travel, accommodation and exhibitor fees which then were in the region of £110/sq. mtr. we usually barely covered the costs even allowing for the fact that some of these costs were tax deductible, the costs for a 4 day were huge!. It can be quite disheartening when after making sure that one's stock is competitively priced, folk attempt to play one trader against another to shave a mere 1 or 2 % off the price. The weather definitely does affect not only visitor numbers but also their inclination to spend money, Sundays were always the worst, probably 25% of visitors were there just for somewhere to go.

[cos918]

interesting reading.
At Warwick I would say Fridays had more people that last year but Saturday seamed quieter.
I do think venue cost is having a big impact on all model shows . I know this is happening in the model railway world. Yes you can look at smaller buildings/sites but most people will not travel as far as the show will be smaller .
 Traders who have an internet shop can be more picky with shows. As if they dont break even they will remember that show and might give it a miss . They can still make sales on the net . Thoes with out a shop need shows more to show case there items. Trader spend  a lot of time money and effort to attend a show. This is showing with less trade support at all types of model shows .
People talk about there not as many bargines at shows. The way I see it is we have changed the way we shop. We no longer have to wait for shows to get items . I remember when I first started  you could only find LEDs at shows . Just look on line to see how available they are and cheaper than they were 20 years ago. We have all gone use to good prices all the times we some times forget that we have them.
One thing for a show to last is consistence . Take Warwick ,all ways be in November, 3 days same venue . Have this constant helps them build on it each year. Take shows that swap there date , then clash with other shows new venue every few years dont have good foundations on which to build


john

[Stan]

I have no wish to upset the apple cart on this topic but the format of the Blackpool show this year may be the way forward.For those those that attended you will have seen model boats of all types.Also this year model trucks,model tanks,were included in the show and new traders .So if the numbers are in decline at model boat shows is this the way forward.Coming from the north  of England I have to say all the shows in this part the country are well supported.But there is no doubt that marine modelers are in decline and like most clubs junior members are in short supply.


Stan.

[Colin Bishop]

I like multi model shows too, Brighton was an excellent example. In fact I think that for most boat modellers boating fits better with other types of modelmaking rather than with model engineering. Whilst there can be a crossover on certain types of models, steamers for example, the average model boater probably has more in common with other types of modelling rather than model engineering which tends to require different skill sets. Personally I can identify more with railway layouts, dolls houses, circuses and the like than pure miniature engineering work. Also, general modelling holds a wider appeal for other family members than does engineering so is likely to attract more visitors. You get a wider range of traders too which are not dominated by machine tools and their accessories which are of a rather specialised and male orientated nature.

Colin

[inertia]

The cost of admission to shows has not been an issue for me for a while - it comes with the trade pass. However I see that it's on course to hit the ten pound mark at next year's Warwick show, at least for adults paying on the day. I wonder how this will affect the footfall.
I've heard various moans about the price of admission into the smaller shows, such as Coalville and Blackpool. I would point out that these shows have to hire their venues and that cost is passed on to the traders and the public with no intention of making a profit for anyone (certainly not since the beginning of this year, anyway). It's to the credit of the organisers, whose efforts are entirely unpaid, that these shows still exist. I don't think any of them charge more than about £5 on the door.
Meridienne is a commercial venture with large premises, fixed overheads and numerous employees and relies on making a profit to continue to trade. If anyone has a problem with that then the answer is obvious. Frankly I don't think Meridienne would miss us even half as much as we would miss them.
DM

[Ron Rees]

Are us modellers losing the plot here?...Back in the dark and dingy past I had my own model shop, and we did Sandown, the Model Engineer Exhibition (When it started in Seymour Hall!!!) Wings and Wheels, the Dagenham Town Show, and the Essex County Show, the BMFA championships at Barkstone heath among others. All this effort to display our models to our customers and the general public was not only to make money, which is a bit essential if you need it to pay staff and eat regularly, but because we were enthusiastic about the hobby, had never ending energy and it was just great fun.


When not trying to promote the business I attended other shows that I was interested in, notably the Woodworkers shows and others of that ilk.
I would look at a traders massive stand and all their staff and their lorries in the trade car park, plus the fully booked local hotel and the runners for food and so on and think...'How on earth can they afford to do this?' Well of corse, they couldn't . I certainly couldn't, my tiny stand at Earls court cost me £1,200 for 2 days, without chairs, tables, banners, phone line or even power for the till. So I didn't do too many of them.


Nearly all those shows I did have gone now, including the Ally Pally Woodworkers show, one of the best shows ever, mainly because of the costs to the traders and the recessions and so on, what a shame.  This year, the Essex County Show (Barleylands) has finished forever because the farmer/owners sons want even more money...So.. they have lost the whole thing, and it joins the long list of valiant organisers and great shows, The reasons:-  Well top of the list is the fees the hall owners, councils organisers demand for space, 2nd...Facilities for the punters, Car parking, ease of travel, somewhere to sit and eat your sandwiches, the cost of a cup of tea (and it's heat and flavour!!) 3rd. The age of the visitors, we are getting older and despite our best efforts to promote younger enthusiasts, they are not doing it. Also, as we get older and more tired, we just can't be bothered to leave at the crack of dawn on a cold misty day to drive 100 miles for a show in the rain, or whatever. (Just sour grapes!!)


I missed the Warwick show this year, because I just wasn't well enough and it upset me, I would be happy to pay £10 or more for a great day out and I don't think that is a lot, Fish and chips can cost you that after all. Modellers who want shows MUST be prepared to cover the increased costs as each year moves on, but Hall renters must realise that their never ending quest for more profits, will mean they will lose it all as traders and public walk away in disgust.


I'll probably miss out on the Model Engineer show at Ally Pally as well after last year. The powers that be now organise the Snooker champs on the same weekend which closes all the Handicapped car parks. 4 of us, in one car with 2 buggies couldn't get anywhere near the front steps last year, the buggies won't go on the bus up from the carparks and nobody gave a damn!! (And the buggies won't go up the hill!)


At the ME the BMFA (British model flying association) was doing their flying model build for the kids and Imagineering had a big area for youngsters to build interesting mechanisms and models that all work. Both these organisations I have had associations with in the past, so there are things to interest the youngsters, but the number of Grandads who came on their own or with similar aged friends and no Grandchildren was about 95%, so not a lot of help promoting the hobby to the youth of today there then.


The public will pay to go to a good show, Traders need to break even or make a bit of profit, people do actually want to attend but the other services need to be in place to make it an enjoyable experience. And if they must charge £2.00 for a cup of tea make sure its hot and not dishwater and in a decent cup.


It's grumpy old gits time!!!!I hope not.


Ron.

[BFSMP]

I would be happy to pay £10 or more for a great day out and I don't think that is a lot, Fish and chips can cost you that after all.
Ron.

aye Ron,


you'll have to move up north, fish n chips up here and cooked the right way wiout skin on it, and proper haddock or hake [ not mushy cod]  is just £6.75. Or you can have a pensioners special haddock and chips, mushy peas with bread and butter and a cup o' char for £4.75


Jim.

[NFMike]

Generalizing, there's little doubt that the 'patience' hobbies like model railways and boats are declining, and have been for decades (along with many professional manual skills). The instant gratification ones like rtr rc planes and cars are doing fine, but no doubt there is an argument that they are not hobbies, more just playing with stuff.

And then the internet changed the whole playing field. You don't have to get up at dawn and travel for hours to see nice things - you can sit in the warmth of your home at any time and see ... well, anything.

So in the short term I think shows will probably need to consolidate. Less of them and more sharing with other hobbies.
In the long term I think they may be doomed unless there is a resurgence of the hobbies themselves ... such as when robots do all the work and we have time and money to spare.

[Subculture]

It does often amaze me how many modellers start drawing sharp breaths at entry costs to shows, but are often happy to part with large cash sums for kits etc. Not to mention arriving in a fairly new well specced car.

As has been said by others, the hobby hasn't arrived at this point overnight it's been building up for decades. I personally never recall the marine hobby being especially a young mans game, at least not scale marine, but there were certainly less grey haired folk about than today.

[carlmt]

There is, of course, a slightly different course for shows....
 
I have noticed that, recently, more Clubs are having Open Days and some traders are invited to these to display their wares.  Clearly, no trader is going to get rich attending these, but I would wager that it would be more the 'exposure' at a minimal cost (fuel to get to the show mainly) that would be the attraction - that, and to enhance any reputation.  The sorts of shows that come to mind where this happens are the Mayhem weekend and Wicksteed and, a recent invitation we have had, the Open Day at Knightcote MBC.  We are most happy to attend shows such as these as we feel that they are of just as much benefit to us as attending the 'big ones' such as Warwick.....but much cheaper!

[Ron Rees]

Hi all, again...and Ey Up me Ducks to BFSMP (Got family in Ilkeston)  When we did the Aqua-Nats show at Trentham Gardens one year, went into Stafford for a fish supper....Rock and Chips twice please.....Beg pardon?...Rock and chips twice please....Whats Rock?....  it's a kind of Catfish. ...You eat Catfish!!!!!Where you from then, China?....No, London.....Ere everybody, (to about 300 Northerners in the shop....These people is from London, they eat catfish down there.....Eeeeaaaghh, they all cried....We've got Plaice, Haddock, Hake, Bloater, Whiting and Skate, pick the bones out of that lot or "xxxxx" orf!!!


Anyway...back to the blog....So many dyed in the wool modellers make discouraging remarks about ARTF/ARTSail, boats, planes and everything else. 25 years ago it was the Tamiya R/C car kits, they saved model shops from going bust all over the country, the things sold so well, they still had to be assembled but they were what the youngsters wanted. Many of those youngsters are now 40+ years old and I see them (Old customers) at the model shows,building 'Real models'... the Almost ready models we moan about have brought them into the hobby in a big way.
Today the biggest seller is Drones, and the young enthusiasts are buying little ones then bigger ones then building their own. So the cycle moves on and we benefit from the advent of smaller, more powerful and cheaper hardware.


Model shops have to stay ahead of the game unless they are a niche market specialist and these things will bring younger modellers into our clubs as time goes by, whether its Planes Helicopters or Boats. We older modellers should expect changes and embrace them even if we won't be using them, So please don't knock them, they are as much part of the model scene as steam trawlers and tugs.


There are still dozens of superb model shops around the country who never come to the shows anymore (Maybe they did once but everyone scorned them and bought nothing, ensuring an expensive loss on the venture). If we didn't moan about the lack of brass 2BA bolts and the like that they don't sell, then they may come back and boost the decaying model show scene, their up to date products would bring younger enthusiasts back and maybe ensure the survival of some of our shows for all our benefit.


In answer to the reply about being able to browse products at home on the web, it is still not as good as meeting the face behind the voice on the phone, we can pick up and handle the items and you ARE getting a discount at the show.....No Postage and Packing charges.


Ron.

[phil_parker]

It always makes me laugh when people look at a tenner to go into a show and throw their hands up in horror. That £10 entitles you to spend all day in a show making it one of the cheapest ways to entertain yourself. Football, cinema, even the pub are far more expensive on an hourly basis. Yes you can sit at home watching TV and drinking supermarket cider for less money and if that's all you want from life, good luck to you. On the other hand, the recent NEC classic car show was £24.50 to go in and heaving with people, so entrance fees aren't everything.

One area no-one has considered is car parking. Coming from the model railway world, we know that to put on a show with 1500 people attending each day, you need 1200 spaces PLUS those for the exhibitors and trade. Finding venues with that sort of space is very difficult, and when you get them the prices will be £1000's per day. The economics are tough.

This is one thing the Warwick show has in spades, and Coleshill isn't too badly off for. Village halls on the other hand don't offer more than 20 or so spaces most of the time. You can fill those with just those exhibiting and trading leaving your visitors to make thier own arrangements.

I also love the multidisciplinary shows but while they work well on the continent where you can fill a venue the size of 3 NEC halls for 3 days and see over 100,000 visitors, the UK is very different. Railway modellers won't go to boat shows, boat modellers don't go to aircraft shows etc. I think that if you don't, you miss out (The Large Scale Model fliers event at Cosford is brilliant for wood and R?C bits as well as good fun) but that's the way people here think. Brighton was an odd-ball and it's demise is down to a range of factors, not just recent attendance numbers.

Model boating is a smaller hobby than railways with older fans. Engineering is even older and smaller. Plastic modelling younger and more popular - IPMS Telford is 3 halls and incredibly busy. I suspect some of them will fancy some boating action in the future so it's not all doom and gloom.

[ballastanksian]

Further thoughts on the subject:

To encourage younger members, you have to engage the parents as well as the kids, on both time, ability, mess control and fears of injury and other unfounded or overblown risks.

Also, don't ignore the Early midddle age band. Those whith teenage kids that do not need endless caring for, Chichester MEE have had a sprinkling of people join in their forties and fifties who, if encouraged can give a couple of decades of life to shows and clubs even if their kids don't get it!

Some clubs have the rule that a junior member has to have a parent or guradian in attendance, which again can put parents off letting their child join because it means they have to hang around while their progeny does the thing they want to do when the parent has little or no interest themselves, especially if it is Grand dad that has the interest but does not live in the same area. We have had it at the Bognor club and Chichester MEE as well.

Finally, "It can be quite disheartening when after making sure that one's stock is competitively priced, folk attempt to play one trader against another to shave a mere 1 or 2 % off the price."

This happens across the board. I was at a show selling wargames models this weekend and our neighbour was asked for a discount on a five pound purchase of 1:300th scale figures. They are too cheap as it is before a tight wad customer asked him to cut his throat!

We found that during the last recession hobbyists (wargamers who could not afford to take their families on holidays would take them on a few day trips. They initially cut back on buying models painting their 'stash' of unpainted lead but then once that was all finished, they then started making regular orders for more thus allowing our sector of the hobby to weather the recession, I appreciate that individual items of wargaming product such as figures and tank models are cheaper than say a model ship kit, bit these wargamers often put in quite healthy orders, and the 28mm (height) figure market has always been bouyant. The Model boat market have similarities where fittings and RC components are concerned?

I agree with the carparking issue especially for those who support a show from a long distance. Wicksteed is great for parking.

[Martin (Admin)]

It always makes me laugh when people look at a tenner to go into a show and throw their hands up in horror. That £10 entitles you to spend all day in a show making it one of the cheapest ways to entertain yourself. Football, cinema, even the pub are far more expensive on an hourly basis. Yes you can sit at home watching TV and drinking supermarket cider for less money and if that's all you want from life, good luck to you. On the other hand, the recent NEC classic car show was £24.50 to go in and heaving with people, so entrance fees aren't everything.

Great argument Phil!   

[TomP]

With nearly 7000 members on here not a shortage of interest in the hobby, would be interesting to see what the average age is? I go to a lot of railway shows with my father due to the retailers being there and he wants some bits, problem is these days its easier to reach them over the internet. Modern world most want a cheap easy fix and don't have the time to spend designing and building a model, couple that with a real lack of skills. People will still spend money on something they want just more cautious. Model railways benefit from ready to run models, something there is a real shortage of in this hobby. Yes this isn't something you would go to a show to see but it's a starting point for someone to gain interest in the hobby same for the subs.