Topic: Bow mounted rudder? (Read 7206 times)

Bryan Young · « **on:** September 10, 2007, 06:14:07 pm »

Could someone tell me about the effectiveness of a bow mounted rudder as seen on the "paddler"? Never seen that before!

DickyD · « **Reply #1 on:** September 10, 2007, 06:30:45 pm »

Bryan if you google "paddle steamer bow rudder" you will probably be surprised how many paddlesteamers had the bow rudder, apparently it made quite a lot of difference to the manoeuvrability

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #2 on:** September 10, 2007, 06:43:47 pm »

The old IoW paddle ferries, Sandown and Ryde were fitted with bow rudders, as were many other paddlers as Richard says. However, the more modern practice was to let them into the forefoot and lock them when on passage.

tobyker · « **Reply #3 on:** September 11, 2007, 12:36:52 am »

So were they only used when going astern? I'd always thought they were hinged at the fwd end and contributed to the turning moment when slow ahead. Mind you, the BoT rule about couple wheels ruined manoeuverability, except for the Admiralty paddle tug exclusion.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #4 on:** September 11, 2007, 09:43:02 am »

The BoT rules requiring paddles to be locked were to stop the ship turning over! The Director class tugs were very beamy and different circumstances applied. There is somebody on here with more information but I can't remember who!

Roger in France · « **Reply #5 on:** September 11, 2007, 04:31:28 pm »

I published a pic. somewhere here on Mayhem showing a pusher tug on the Seine in Paris which was pushing a barge. The barge had a rudder at the front.
Roger in France.

charvey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:16:01 pm »

As Colin says, bow rudders were mounted in the forefoot on some paddlers to aid manoverability when going astern. When the vessel was going forward the rudder would be locked into position. I believe that they were not that effective, and prone to damage thus many were removed. Presumably they were also not that easy to maintain given the slender bow of many excursion paddlers.

Chris

Bryan Young · « **Reply #7 on:** September 11, 2007, 05:59:39 pm »

Dicky,etc. I had actually sussed out that it would be used when going astern...basically making the vessel a "push me-pull you" job.
But why put it in such a vulnerable position? Even when this was built it would have been fairly easy to recess the bow rudder into the stem...and make it easier to lock in position. With its apparent fragility I shudder to think of what would happen if the thing was engaged accidentally when charging along at "full-ahead". Did the Admiralty persevere with this idea or was it a "one-off" ( would not be surprised if it was not followed up).
Am I right in thinking that it is a static model? It really is a masterpiece with enough detail to act as a "bench-mark" for those building ships of that era. BY.

farrow · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2007, 03:31:45 pm »

Passenger Paddle vessels are required to have their paddles operated as one for safety reasons. It was an outcome of the capsizing of the Princess Alice with high loss of life. the paddles turning against each other with the passengers all on one side waiting to get off, was presumed to have given the turning motion to capsize her. Paddle tugs are exempt because they need independent working of the paddles and they do not carry passengers.As for bow rudders the German Navy fittedthem to their Destroyers in the first world war for extra maneuverability. Though not often seen in UK would appear to be continental thing to help long shallow draft vessels operate in tight conditions.
David

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2007, 06:01:30 pm »

Princess Alice? I thought she was the paddler run down on the Thames by the collier Bywell Castle in 1878. Nothing to do with her paddle wheel configuration. Are you thinking of another vessel?

DickyD · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2007, 06:22:43 pm »

PS Princess Alice was broken up at Devonport in 1878.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2007, 06:46:40 pm »

That seems a bit of a coincidence, two paddlers of the same name sunk/broken up the same year. Can't find yours on Google though Richard.

cdsc123 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2007, 07:22:58 pm »

This thread deals with the paddles question very nicely;
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=3298
Don't forget wartime British Vosper MTBs had (underslung) bow rudders.

DickyD · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2007, 07:46:54 pm »

Quote from: Colin Bishop on October 22, 2007, 06:46:40 pm

That seems a bit of a coincidence, two paddlers of the same name sunk/broken up the same year. Can't find yours on Google though Richard.

http://website.lineone.net/~tom_lee/princessalice.htm

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2007, 07:52:03 pm »

Nice looking ship. A bit smaller than her tragic namesake though.

Bob · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2007, 08:56:55 am »

Union Steam Ship Co ran the overnight Cook Strait ferry service for many years and at least one of the vessels, TEV MAORI was fitted with a bow rudder. It was used to assist when docking stern first. Each arrival the Electrician and the Mate went for'd, removed the securing pin, and tested the gear just prior to moving astern. I'm not sure wether it was operated from the bridge or the fo'castle. Bob

Bryan Young · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:30:08 pm »

Quote from: Bob on October 23, 2007, 08:56:55 am

Union Steam Ship Co ran the overnight Cook Strait ferry service for many years and at least one of the vessels, TEV MAORI was fitted with a bow rudder. It was used to assist when docking stern first. Each arrival the Electrician and the Mate went for'd, removed the securing pin, and tested the gear just prior to moving astern. I'm not sure wether it was operated from the bridge or the fo'castle. Bob

Hi,Bob. My original query was really about the bow rudder sticking out of the front (or would it be the "back" sometimes). It just looks so very vulnerable to anything. Perhaps it was just a good idea waiting to be refined. Enjoy your summer...bet you have a better one than we did...unless those volcanoes let loose! Cheers. Bryan.

farrow · « **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2007, 04:22:12 pm »

Perhaps I got the name of the paddler wrong, but that is how the regulation came in, all paddle tugs could use their wheels independently as they would not be able to carry out their work.. The German destroyers bow rudder was hung below the keel. I should imagine getting back to the thread is that shallow drafted, very long and narrow beam hulls are difficult to manoeuvre in confined waters and going stern first a bow rudder would indubitably improve matters. Incidentally would British regulations on passenger paddle boats apply to foreign ships in their own coastal waters.

farrow · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2007, 08:41:18 pm »

Hi,
I have been thinking some more and I believe the reason for bow rudders are for vessels which have to navigate narrow channels to berths with no turning space, such as one of the Portsmouth /Ilse of Wight runs. The bow rudder would enable the vessel to move astern as well as ahead, especially paddlers which are notorious ship handlers (the passenger ones).

andywright · « **Reply #19 on:** November 07, 2007, 07:52:51 am »

The bow rudder would not stick out, it was built into the normal shape of the bow, the push me pull ferries in Sydney Harbour ran this system for years.

kenthompson · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2007, 11:39:14 pm »

But, Bryan knew all that, it`s not rocket scienc is it???

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Author Topic: Bow mounted rudder? (Read 7206 times)

Roger in France

charvey

farrow

cdsc123

farrow

farrow

kenthompson