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[justboatonic]

Any plumbers or anyone with plumbing experience able to help?
The fill valve on one of our close coupled toilets has stopped working properly. Sometimes it cuts off fine, sometimes it overflows. I decided to have a go replacing it with a new version from Fluidmaster as it seems a relatively easy job ho, ho! I also want to take the cistern off the wall, give everything a clean and generally fix a long standing loose wall fitting problem at the same time.

Problem is, my normal plumber CBA to come out to a sub 50 quid job. When he fitted the previous valve, used some weird means to fix the bottom of the valve to the isolation cut off pipework as can be seen in the pictures.



It looks like he's used a lock nut method but I dont seem to be able to unscrew the bottom of the two (nut and 'rigded nut') without the pipe work and isolation valve starting to move even when using grips to hold the isolation valve. I dont want that coming off and flooding the house.
Does it look like the top nut needs screwing up the thread first? Im using grips on the body of the isolation valve to stop it turning but how do I stop the pipework between it and the bottom of the cistern valve turning loose?
 Ive only got 2 hands!TIA.

[nemesis]

before you do anything daft strip the valve and replace the washer as they can be susceptible bits of dirt, scale. I had one that gave me bother and it was a fragment of the pipe union sealing washer, nemesis

[Baldrick]

Use two spanners ,  One to hold the upper nut steady and stop it turning, the second to (ant-clockwise ) turn the lower nut to undo it . It may be the installer used some jointing compound when he made the joint and you will need to apply some grunt to break the seal . Use decent correct size spanners not grips.. Their is nothing weird about the connector below the tail of the valve, it is a straightforward female iron / copper compression fitting.
  PS make sure you empty the cistern before loosening the locknut under the cistern.

[tigertiger]

Let me start by saying I am not a plumber. Two things I would do before starting. Buy a new isolator valve to have at hand (just in case) and turn the mains water off. I would then turn the isolator valve off and disconnect at the top of the valve. Once this is done there is more leeway to push and twist the gubbins at the bottom of the cistern.
If the pipe disconnects easily from the top of the isolator valve, without the bottom coming loose, the mains can be switched back on. When the cistern is fixed and reconnected to the top of the isolator valve, with no leaks there is one final job. Go back to the hardware store and ask for a refund on the unused valve.

[Netleyned]

The upper nut is acting as a locknut so you will need two spanners acting in opposite directions to break the seal. Shut the iso valve and flush before starting.
You will have a small amount of water to mop up.
Make sure you have a couple of replacement olives for refitting.
Ned

[Capt Podge]

Also, don't forget to tie off the cistern valve in the shut position before the flush


Regards
Ray

[Baldrick]

Also, don't forget to tie off the cistern valve in the shut position before the flush


Regards
Ray

   The mini valve below the offset is in the shut position so no need

[justboatonic]

Thanks for the comments so far. Should have made it clear that yes, the iso valve is switched so no water gets through and cistern drained of all water. I wasnt able to shift either of the nuts, the top one or the 'ridged' nut and the force I was using was making the isolation valve loosen a little so it started weeping from the mains side. Next attempt will be with water off at the mains.
If I need to, if I set the iso valve to closed, can I undo and take the top off it without water coming through even if mains is on? In other words, will the iso value still hold without the top on?

[tigertiger]

If the iso valve is set to off, no water will flow either way. If you remove the pipe above the valve, the only water that might come out will be backflow from the cistern above.
The exception would be if the valve works loose from the lower pipe, which it appears to have done a little already. One problem you might have is that the olives in the iso valve, which appears to be old, get damaged or scored and fail to reseal/re-seat when re-tightened.


As others have said, you should be able remove the pipewoerk from the cistern without disconnecting the top of the iso valve. However, it they really are a problem you can disconnect at the top of the iso valve. One other thing that might be causing a problem is if it is very cold and the metal has contracted and is tight. If you can warm the outer nuts without warming the pipe too much, this may also help free things up.
If you are going to clean things up and fix a wall fitting then it may be worth the effort to remove the pipe.

[Perkasaman2]

Your supply pipe is entered and sealed to a fitting called a conex tank connector  which is in turn screwed onto the bottom entry valve body. this connector (hex fitting) has a red fibre washer to make this joint watertight.


Stripping down and replacing the float valve can be a world of trouble. I would advise you to pay a competent plumber to do this job. Stripping the fittings down can be a world of trouble and the seals once disturbed may require replacement if they don't re-seal.      Often the faulty valve only requires a replacement valve rubber and there is no need to replace the whole float unit.


The rubber valve seal is usually generic and a replacement from a local diy store is easily obtained. There is an isolation valve to cut off the water supply to the cistern below the fitting. A flat blade screwdriver is needed to rotate this valve.

[tigertiger]

I strongly second what Perkasaman said about washers.

[Big Ada]

If you take the Cistern off of the Wall/Toilet Pan you will disturb the " Donut " washer that makes a seal between Cistern and Pan, you will then need to Buy a new one unless the old one will plump back up. What type of Ball valve is in the Cistern?, if it is a BSS 1212 then there is no need to do all this unnecessary work underneath the Cistern.
Show us a Photo of the inside of the Cistern please.

Len, Plumber for 35 years.

[justboatonic]

The faulty cistern valve is a bottom fill entry valve of unknown manufacture. It is not the old ballcock type. I have never seen an exact similar one on various sites such as Screwfix, B&Q etc. That's why the whole cistern valve is being replaced whether by a plumber or me.
Thanks again for the info and I'll review all the comments again. If the bottom of the cistern valve was attached to the iso valve via the metal flexi hose type fitting, Im confident Id have had the whole thing out, new close coupled fitting fixed, new bottom entry valve fitted and loose wall fitting sorted. It's just the two nuts on the bottom of the infill valve that's giving me trouble.
Yes, a plumber would have them off in a jiffy but trying to get one out for a 50 quid job is like finding hens teeth LOL!

[Big Ada]

Your supply pipe is entered and sealed to a fitting called a conex tank connector  which is in turn screwed onto the bottom entry valve body. this connector (hex fitting) has a red fibre washer to make this joint watertight.

This Conex Fitting is a 15mm Copper to Female iron Straight Connector as against a 15mm Copper Straight Swivel Tap Connector that should have been used, and as for those in line Stop Valves they nearly always leak when you use them.

Len.

[Perkasaman2]

The best replacement is a bottom entry torbec valve. Clamp the brass hex nut and unscrew the ribbed nut completely and the copper supply can be sprung from the fitting. Clamp the cistern valve body and then unscrew the hex fitting from the stem  thread. You can now slacken the white locknut and withdraw the cistern body.

[justboatonic]

The best replacement is a bottom entry torbec valve. Clamp the brass hex nut and unscrew the ribbed nut completely and the copper supply can be sprung from the fitting. Clamp the cistern valve body and then unscrew the hex fitting from the stem  thread. You can now slacken the white locknut and withdraw the cistern body.

Ive a new fluidmaster BEV which is similar to the torbec. What's the best tool to unscrew the ribbed nut? It's more than hand tight, I used a pair of adjustable grips (serated jaws) but these just slid around without really gripping. Presumably, it is clockwise to undo as opposed to anti clockwise for the top nut.

[Perkasaman2]

There is an inexpensive  purpose conex spanner but any open ended spanner the correct size will do as long as it is a tight fit. You could gently heat the ribbed conex ring and promptly use an adjustable wrench while also clampinging the hex nut..

[Baldrick]

Ive a new fluidmaster BEV which is similar to the torbec. What's the best tool to unscrew the ribbed nut? It's more than hand tight, I used a pair of adjustable grips (serated jaws) but these just slid around without really gripping. Presumably, it is clockwise to undo as opposed to anti clockwise for the top nut.

  clockwise if you are viewing it from the top , anti clockwise if viewing it from below.. ie swing the tail end of the spanner from the right to your left side.

[Perkasaman2]

Unscrew the ribbed nut clockwise to loosen.

[justboatonic]

Thanks for this confirmation.

Obviously, people might think Im a complete numpty or shouldnt be doing this task. But if my plumber had fitted a flexi pipe or any other 'connector,' Im confident this would be off and the BEV replaced by now. I havent got a blow torch to heat the offending nut a little. So, it's going to be water off at the mains, flush the cistern and go for holding the hex nut and my breath and undoing the ribbed nut.
Just got to get my ducks in order now 

[Baldrick]

  Just to cheer you up ! When you have loosened your offending ribbed nut and run it back to uncouple the inlet pipe, you are still going to have to remove the other bit of the female iron connector before you can undo the backnut from the ballvalve  to remove it . Make sure your grips are big enough and 3 weetabix for breakfast

[Netleyned]

Fit a Baby Blake, much more hassle
Ned

[Big Ada]

How many people does it take to change a Ball Valve or whatever the Mystery item is ?.
Just a thought, Does your local Water authority have strict rules as to what Valves can or cannot be used, some get their Kn*****s in a right twist if they think you are wasting water.

[justboatonic]

LOL, this job has fought me all the way. I went out and bought a conex \ compression nut spanner, cost me 8 quid, undid the conex nut no problem to disconnect the inlet pipe. But then I couldnt shift the brass nut that was immediately above it. The inlet pipework was in the way to do much and really put some grunt in. So, as Im replacing the bottom fill valve,I just cut through that. Sweet.
Then onto the wing nuts holding the  close couple fitting. One, finger tight, the other rusted and wouldnt budge after copious sprays with WD40 and gentle persuation. I had to hacksaw that off as well!
Tomorrow it's cistern off the wall and measure up for new screw in plasterboard fittings to resolve the wobbly cistern and give the porcelain a nice good clean. Then it's put it all back together again to see if it works!
  

[Big Ada]

We will all keep our Fingers Crossed.

Len.