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Author Topic: age old problem.....allen keys  (Read 4071 times)

Klunk

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age old problem.....allen keys
« on: December 07, 2019, 05:09:27 am »

ok. when doing up or undoing a coupling with a small allen key, I'm fed up with them rounding off after 2 or 3 uses. I've tried cheap and expensive, square  end and ball end. I've even used torx bits. all to no avail. the torx ones last the longest, also they need to be long! not those short stubby ones. any ideas?
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derekwarner

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 06:39:13 am »

Hullo Klunk.....


I am sure it's a simple scenario proliferated with the mass import of less expensive tools & hex bolts from manufacturing facilities with less consistent quality control


In the UK, you have SPS Technologies, supplying under the name we all know as Unbrako....the originally adopted name for all types of cap or grub screws & hex drives


Unbrako publicise their keys are Heat Treated to Rc 47 to 57, with their cap screws & the like heat treated to Rc 36/38 to 45

So it is paying for quality heat treatment :-))


Derek


[as a footnote, the World Wide SPS Technologies Group, have been acquired by financial interests from India]
[SPS have unique manufacturing and world wide distribution eg., M24 SHCS are manufactured in Ireland and distributed to consumers world wide through Unbrako facilities who need/consume M24 SHCS  O0


 
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Derek Warner

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coch y bonddu

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 08:05:45 am »

Go on to ebay and buy some snap on one's m8 simply the best had mine for years and they aint let me down.






Dave
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Taranis

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 09:23:38 am »

Hi Pete
I agree there are many cheap almost use once micro Allen keys of dubious fit.
Personally I think with top brand names there shouldn't be an issue but perhaps we are all guilty of over zealous tightening. I've formed the opinion that I'd rather the Allen key rounded off than the socket of the grub screw.
I use Wera myself


In today's electrical industry (as an example)  everything has an official torque setting and it's amazing how low some torques are when compared to how an operative would tighten it without a torque tool and guidance
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raflaunches

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 09:41:08 am »

In today's electrical industry (as an example)  everything has an official torque setting and it's amazing how low some torques are when compared to how an operative would tighten it without a torque tool and guidance


I too am amazed, when I was in charge of torque wrench calibrations at my section at Marham I had to test the electrical trades torque drives (soltorks) and I think the highest one I had to test was only 2Nm the lowest being something like 0.25Nm- always seems pointless testing something where your little finger has power torque power than the soltork!
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Taranis

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 09:46:06 am »

I suspect that a 2mm thread is less than 1Nm and security relies on a flat on the shaft and thread lock. I'm pretty sure I tighten by hand to more like 50Nm  {-)
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raflaunches

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 10:02:19 am »

Our favourite saying when using torque wrenches was ‘five white knuckles’! As every time we used them we got five white knuckles when the correct torque setting. :D
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john44

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 10:35:30 am »

I just grind the end back being careful not to get it too hot which will soften the Allen key.
Good as new just a tad shorter. Better than throwing them away.


John
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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 10:58:20 am »

For me it isn't the tightening of the screws that causes the problem but rather the loosening where someone has previously overtightened them, possibly damaging the head, and used Loctite just to make sure.

My latest set came from Aldi/Lidl & for my simple uses are holding up ok. I suspect that in a set, like spanners & sockets, there are a few that get used a lot and many that either never, or rarely, get used at all.
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Taranis

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 11:27:53 am »

These are my choice and not yet had to bin one.



I have specific items that I use rather than a set too



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bfgstew

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 12:01:08 pm »

Been through many many different sets of Allen keys over the years, but far the best I have ever had are BETA 'T' bars, boy do these take some beating, only down side is the price but you get what you pay for!
Main problem though is two fold - cheap grub screws that easily round off and secondly over tightening in the first place......many an unhappy hour or so struggling to get rounded off grub screws out - I use 'Ezee outs', if that fails a good quality cobalt drill.


https://www.beta-tools.com/en/products/screwdrivers-male-end-wrenches-and-bits/t-handle-wrenches-with-male-ends/nbsp.html
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Shipmate60

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2019, 01:07:50 pm »

I am actually happy that the allen keys round off.
Easier to get a new one or grind down the original key than have to drill out the grub screw!!!


Bob
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Mark T

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2019, 03:54:57 pm »

I am actually happy that the allen keys round off.
Easier to get a new one or grind down the original key than have to drill out the grub screw!!!


Bob


I'm with you on this Bob.  Some of the grub screws we use are tiny and some people just ask to much of them.  As has been said if you tighten one onto a flat on the shaft they really don't need to be that tight.

Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2019, 06:12:54 pm »

I had a friend that would drill out the small grub screws and then thread for large grub screws.
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Shipmate60

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2019, 06:45:48 pm »

Umi,
Did he wear a belt and braces?


Bob
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mrzippy

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2019, 07:22:54 pm »

I suffer the opposite problem on my models -
I find the couplings supplied blackened steel grub screws rust quickly and their socket chews easily,
admittedly occasional runs on salt water won't help.

Swapping to Stainless grub screws solves the problem, they seem to have an accurate positive hold on
the Allen Key or in my case Dubro Ball Ended Drivers ( now approaching 40 years good service ).

Paul
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coch y bonddu

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2019, 07:45:16 pm »

Grub screws coat with copper grease and  voila no rusting problems simples and the come out with ease the old adage of dissimilar metals






Dave
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Taranis

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2019, 12:06:37 am »

There lies a dilemma
Thread lock will secure threads and provide a level of isolation between dissimilar metals but rendered useless by any form of grease.
You will only get surface rust on metal exposed to oxygen and water so there should be no reaction between a grub screw and a brass coupling within the thread. You can always apply a little grease to the hex socket of the head
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derekwarner

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2019, 03:19:17 am »

I agree with Paul ....Grade 300 series S/S SHCS [Grub Screws] are as cheap as chips......


Remember the depth of the in-hex is ~~ 3/4 of the diameter...so don't fall into the trap of ordering M2 x2 SHCS.....the minimum in a perfect world is diameter ~~ x 2 for the length .....so M2 x 4 and M3 x 6


This provides greater mechanical cross section of material in shear so and in strength


Stainless steel in these Grades will not accept the Heat Treatment previously mentioned, so are more prone to over-tightening 


They are available in Dog Point or Hollow Point......so shaft preparation is required to ensure the appropriate surface or indentation is provided to accept the intended HPGS or application...


M3 HPGS are also available in  Brass  :o


How could you not love the Metric system......an M2 brass nut can hold an M2 Grade 300 Series Hollow Coned HPGS which a can be held and tightened in an SW 3 Opended Spanner from Mr Krupfer .........all  :kiss: 


So in addition to the mechanical securing and tightening of the HPGS via it's own in-hex, an additional Lock Nut can be added to the bolted connection


This then can eliminate the use of any Thread Locker type glue  >>:-( [size=78%] [/size]


Derek

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Derek Warner

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Klunk

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2019, 08:38:27 am »

all good stuff. in the grub screw bits, could you exchange them for screws?
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Shipmate60

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Re: age old problem.....allen keys
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2019, 09:15:22 am »

yes. But not cross head as the 2 cuts will severely weaken the top unless you can guarantee the screw ia surrounded by the thread.


Bob
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