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[Matt]

Hi all, complete newbie to the forum here.

I've recently been given an old (possibly VERY old) wooden pond boat that is in need of restoration. I have some experience in model boating, model engineering and wooden boats in general, and am looking forward to the project, however I am struggling to find any information to be able to better identify the boat and how she may have been set up. I would be very grateful if anyone in the forum could point me in the right direction.photos attached. general info as follows:

Hull length: 57" (145cm)
Beam: 14" (35cm)
Sheer to bottom of keel: 17" (43cm)

The boat came with two rigs, one slightly taller than the other. Masts are deck-stepped.  The boat is in sound condition, but almost all the hardware is missing.
Does this look familiar to anyone?

[JimG]

That keel design does make it really old. Best to get in touch with the Vintage Model Yacht Group.http://www.vmyg.org.uk/index.htmTheir members have a lot of experience in restoring old pond yachts and should be able to help you with this.
Jim

[garethjones35]

Hi Matt,


I saw your posting on the MYA website yesterday and I have sent a link to the rest of the VMYG committee to see if anyone recognises your yacht.  Sorry I cant help. except to confirm it is pretty old, I would guess pre 1900.


Regards
Gareth

[Matt]

Thank you Jim and Gareth


I'll definitely get in touch with VMYG. I managed to find something vaguely similar on an antiques auction website. No precise date but Edwardian period.    I also noticed that the hull shapes on later models tended to replicate the current trends/fashions in full size designs whereas this doesn't seem to be the case.


Either way, I've got the time to do research at the moment, so hopefully I'll manage to bring her back to as close to original condition as possible.




Matt

[roycv]

Hi Matt what a lovely old yacht.  Can you measure how long the hull is?  I am sure that might help with identity.  I assume that she has a bowsprit but is there a sail on it as well as the rolled up sail?
I have to say my eyes could not make out the keel details, any chance of a photo without the stand?  I agree with Gareth about 1900 give or take a few years.  I have seen an old photo of a very successful model yacht that had a bulb type keel suspended at both ends.
The profile of the hull almost suggests the semi circular arc design once advocated by possibly Tucker(?).  The internal view suggests otherwise.  Who ever built the yacht made a very fine job of it.
Look forward to hearing more.
kind regards
Roy

[Matt]

Hi Roy,


the hull length is 57" plus another 8 inches for the bowsprit.  I only have 2 mainsail and 2 jibs, and almost no deck hardware whatsoever so it is difficult to tell what the sailplan would have been, but I suspect there would have been multiple headsails, given the number of attachment points on the sprit.


Photo attached off the stand. the green bar is an extra piece of lead that slots in place above the existing ballast


thanks




Matt

[rickles23]

Hi,
That looks like a bar keel.
 It was very popular.
Whatever you do, do not and I repeat do not part with that yacht.
Regards

[roycv]

Hi Matt thanks for that.  Looks like the C6 on the sail might indicate the class and number in the class.  There were rather a lot of different 'raters' around this time.

 I have an old one maybe 10 years younger than yours and the comment I had from the VMYG was that as it was so well preserved it probably was not successful and had been put to one side!  Something worth considering.  Probably both our yachts are pre WW1.
regards
Roy

[roycv]

Hi Rickles..  I think you have made your point about it's value, however when restoring a model yacht there are two basic options.  Is it going to sail again or be a decorative object.
If she is to sail again then I personally would really want some control as in RC, which can be well hidden but adds/changes the yacht.

If she is to be a decorative object then the yacht would be on display at 5' 6" long and probably 7' 6" high that is quite a big deal and occupys a fair bit of space.

If you opt to restore her back to sailing then transport starts to be a problem, well at least for me.  That mast is long and even in two pieces is not easy.  Rigging the yacht at the lakeside is at least a 10 minute job, longer if it is windy.  I sold on a modern schooner that required just too much attention at the lake before she went into the water.

So you make your choices, if I was to get her back to display standard I think I would enjoy her for a while and then sell her on at my leisure and let someone else have the pleasure.
best regards
Roy

[rickles23]

Hi, you make a very good argument and if pressed I would opt for:


" if I was to get her back to display standard I think I would enjoy her for a while and then sell her on at my leisure and let someone else have the pleasure."


Regards[/size]

[roycv]

Hi Rickles, my options are based on donated boats we get offered to the society I belong to.  Sometimes the person donating the model boat is just clearing out and wants rid of them, at the other end of the scale some have an exagerated view of the value of the model.  So I ask what their expectations are.
The quality of the build of this yacht looks excellent and if restored sympathetically it could be of some value.  But the value depends on what someone is prepared to pay.  I suspect in this case the amount of work needed makes it a labour of love.

A couple of years ago I saw 2 off model yachts for sale on gumtree both similar size at 27 inches long at £30 for both.  After talking to the seller I decided it was worth me going to Salisbury to collect them, the petrol doubled their cost.  I am working on them now, beautifully made hollowed out from solid wood hulls, absolute crap sails but otherwise a real 'find'.  I am having a lot of pleasure getting them going the way the builder would have wanted.  (The seller was not the builder, and he had no knowledge of where they came from).  So another labour of love.

kind regards
Roy

[rickles23]

Hi roycv,


Like you I get many boats to repair or restore and some to keep.


I was given a 1950s vintage Marblehead yacht all wooden and after I restored it I was told I could keep it. So now it has radio control with two sail winches and rudder.


It was over-made so I had to improvise along the way. To give an example on the mast was a triple pulley which I was able to use on a full size yacht. The mast was an inch and a half diameter so I made all new mast and booms.


When this virus ends I plan to visit my Sisters in England and buy a Triang model yacht similar to one My Dad got for me as a wee boy.


Regards

[rickles23]

Hi,


This is the yacht I am looking for.


Regards

[roycv]

Hello Rickles, I remember them they always caught my eye.  I have a friend who is a collector and he says beware the plastic does not stand up to sunlight and warps are very difficult to sort out. Whites also go a bit yellow. 

If you see one best to view it before purchase.
Best regards
Roy

[ballastanksian]

It looks like a representation of the J Class yacht though it's stem is blunter and it has no tumblehome amidships.


Beautiful model though with super potential.

[roycv]

Not sure about that B..... as I think it is a model of a 36 foot cruising yacht maybe a Westerly or the like.  I have sailed in a 34 foot yacht just like that with cramped room for 6 on board.

 The J class full size yachts were more like very large pond yachts, which I think that is why they are so popular, they came back in if the wind was above 15 knots as they were all over-canvassed.

I have to take off the quadrilateral foresail on my one when the wind blows, a great shame that the other pond J class do not have this sail, it makes all the difference to the appearance.
Regards
Roy

[roycv]

Hi, just thought you might like to see my Endeavour.  She is a sailing version of the 1 : 35 scale Amati kit at about 1 metre loa.  The crew are not normally present when sailing. 

She is if I remember about 5.5 Kgrms displacement so very light but the hull is to to scale with an additional layer of 3mm planking to give the extra displacement.  All the (very heavy) frames had the centres cut out to keep weight as little as possible.  There is an extension keel which also gives extra bouyancy as I doubled the thickness of the whole keel when planking.
Main sail had to be cut back so that I could fit a back stay, the sails were re-balanced to get the C of E in the right place also the quad is the minimum width that would get past the jib when tacking.  The main sail has most of the individual ring attachments on the wide triangular section main boom, that took ages to do. 

I used an extruded aluminium mast with luff groove for the main sail.  The spreaders are tensioned to give rigidity to the mast at the top.  The attachment of the mast halliards to the deck was carefullly researched and this is how she was after the 1934 races, which is not how she left the UK to take part.  I was lucky to find a news video after her return.  She was reported as lost at sea for 5 days and then came back to a Civic welcome, so lots of newsreel footage.

There is just one sail winch which has proved very reliable as it has to haul in sails with 2 extra sets of pulleys to halve then halve again the control of the sheets.

She goes very nicely in a light wind but anything more then the quadrilateral is removed and another forestay put in place and then she sails very well, but also loses her character and looks just like any model yacht.
regards
Roy