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[Circlip]

Wonder how many "Super Kits" need to be sold to cover the tooling costs?? The term "walk a mile in another mans shoes" springs to mind. How many manufacturers have closed due to the economics of the need to feed their families as opposed to catering to the whims of the great unwashed? Thanks to 3D printing, some have the ability to manufacture "Fittings" for a cost that in the past would have bought even the most expensive toy boat kit. At least one of todays manufacturers sells a basic (?) hull and offers fittings as separate items. Wonder how many "Complete" kits they would sell rather than part it out?
 As ever was the case, not everyone over all age groups has a bottomless pocket for the purchase of our toys. The "Cheap" side of the hobby (Plans) also seems to have become cost prohibitive in many cases. I find it hard to justify £17 for one that originally was free but in its heyday cost 2/6d (12 1/2p), and why if lasers "work" themselves are modern "AeroKits" so expensive? I DON'T need an explanation for these last two points, I know what's involved as anyone who is or has been employed in manufacturing management will attest. Wonder why even Gropener are only a shell of what they were in a country with what seems to have more disposable income than EVEN the UK.?


  Regards  Ian.

[Taranis]

The current ownership of Billing Boats invested in a brand new factory and are striving to bring back between 4 and 8 lost models to the current range. With the benefits of modern day advertising, Facebook and better distributors some prices have actually gone down at Cornwall model boats

[roycv]

I note that one of the most popular ones is the fishing boat Mary Ann.  The price of this kit seems to escalate, but some of the previously brass fittings are made of wood now.  Quite a surprise when I was renovating one and the trawl brackets broke in my fingers as I was expecting them to be made of brass. 

I have a spare fittings kit so no problem.  I remember buying this fittings kit quite a while back now for the princely sum of £6!
What a shame the other fishing and similar boats are built to a smaller scale, they would look great at 1 : 30 scale and I would happily buy them.
Regards
Roy

[redpmg]

Billings always seem to produce kits to a scale that suited the size of the model they wanted  - most kits came in the same size boxes depending how they fitted into their range - ie beginners to expert (4 ranges as most modellers know).  Originally all Billings kits seem to have come without fittings - then because of competition they started to include them in the package . Brass fittings must be prohibitively expensive to manufacture now - surprised there has not been an increase in the the number of moulded plastic fittings supplied instead.


I suggested years ago that Billings should produce the Monterey Clipper - and they finally did. Unfortunately for me they chose to model the Salmon Troller version of that. They turned down the offer of two of their out of production kits at the time  - a PT Boat and a small Cabin Cruiser which looked similar to their White Star - but with a much different style of build. The Cabin Cruiser was clearly one of their early cheaper model range aimed at at the younger market - free running meant for use with a 4 AA battery holder. Later replaced by a Fishing Boat, Sailboat , Trawler & Tug models all using the same moulded styrene hull.

Looking at the current prices of theirs & other kits some of which are in the hundreds of pounds one wonders how anyone can afford them and how many of them they actually do sell. As Circlip  says  the tooling costs must be very high . Know from my own production of a couple of kits it can easily take a month of your time with design and prototype testing let alone the cost of materials & machine usage. It will be costly for Billings to reproduce the Mercantic with their modern methods of Laser cutting etc which means it will be a high priced kit .

No wonder SLEC & HAkits seem to be doing well in the market nowadays

[Colin Bishop]

A few years back I bought the Billings St Roch kit as we had seen the original ship in the Vancouver Maritime Museum. It would have been nice to build the model as a memento of our visit but the half completed hull is now languishing in my garage as the quality of the timber supplied was dreadful. I gave up on it.

Colin

[Taranis]

I’ve recently (this year) bought a good 100 plus of Billing Obechi planks from Cornwall models and all of it has been satisfactory IMHO
Other than the Smit Rotterdam that was my very first model January 2017 (still unfinished) all my billing kits get a good coat of glass cloth and resin so realistically the quality of the planking is not critical to me.
I do wonder why many of the fittings are brass that simply do not need to be. Anything freestanding with no connection to anything else would be fine in plastic.
Anything that is interconnected or under stress/tension then yes brass but it’s all painted ultimately
The Mary Ann is best priced at £154 delivered from CMB including fittings.


The fittings kit as a separate item is about £97


Cutting out the middle man Amerang trading has improved supply and reduced cost against inflation

[Colin Bishop]

If plastic fittings are injection mouded then the cost can be quite expensive if there are only low production runs. That's why so many kit manufacurers use white metal.

Colin

[canabus]

3D printing would be the way to go and cheaper !!!!


Canabus

[Colin Bishop]

Yes but it can be a slow process for mass production items unless you have an expensive machine I believe.

Colin

[RST]

I think all the comments on manufacturing are valid but we should let Andy continue with his build here and maybe take other comments offline on a separate thread as they're very valid and worth a separate thread in my opinion but so as not to cloud his build blog for this model.


Rich

[Circlip]

Sorry Rich but the throwaway comment of what ONE manufacturer is doing so wrong demanded a response. Not everyone wants to build a museum standard model, some just want to float a boat, you want to tart it up? your choice but don't limit the market for the minority.


  Regards  Ian.

[steve mahoney]

I feel for any kit manufacturer, they all seem to be doing it for love rather than income. Some of the kits may not be all that they could be but model boating is a dying hobby and any manufacturer who can stay in the industry and attract new modellers has my full respect and gratitude.

[RST]

I think arbitrarily cleaving the conversation in half has lost its meaning.  Also I wasn't having a dig at Ian.  I just thought it meant Any could continue his build thread unnecessarily cluttered up.




...I'm a big believer in whatever works these days.  New technology comes along and replaces the old.  Same as it always did.


I was told a few years ago by someone I hold as a reputable supplier that Billings brass offerings were all turned by a guy essentially working in his shed.  He wasn't working for a while so fittings dried up.  I have NO idea if that was true or not but I wonder muchly if allot of their offerings can't be pumped out in printing these days.  I have a 150quid printer that can make lots of things (I have no workshop for a mill or lathe) but if I factored my R.o.I. into it it would not be commercially viable.  Also, my cleaning up of dodgy printed parts is no worse than cleaning flash or worse of old and tired injection moulded or metal cast parts.


Whatever can be done these days to keep parts coming and not have to rely on just importing from China.  I live in hope it doesn't go the model railway world of pre-orders and absolutely massive costs for amazingly detailed things that are a niche.  I agree there are good home manufacturers now like HA kits who offer the basics and let your mind wander if you wish.


Rich

[redpmg]

With a basic cheap kit you can either build it as is supplied - or doll it up as much as you want. Whichever suits you is fine - both ways give pleasure. This is definitely a dying hobby judging from the average age of members of clubs - the one in UK I am still a honorary member of the average age must be around 65. Very few youngsters - the same with the club in Johannesburg I belonged too in the 80s & 90s. Current situation with the revived club is much the same.


When we were young pocket money bought a model kit & hopefully a ticket for Saturday morning movies. Can remember buying a Hobbies Anglian Tug kit for a fiver complete with Mighty Midget motor and all the fittings - that included postage to Rhodesia. ( From birthday money ).  Most kits now seem to be way out of the pocket money range other than the two makes mentioned previously and a couple of smaller kits from Germany - plus there are a lot of pensioners out there who cant afford to splash money around .

 If we are to encourage youngsters to the hobby what better way than a simple easy to build kit - we need more of those - it would be nice to see them complete with propshaft , rudder & motor or offer them as a package - looking around a 2mm shaft is about 3.50 with prop, 385 motor +- 4.0 and rudder for 4.50  (Howes etc) - so not exactly expensive.


The only cheap ones in the Billings range are the plastic hulled ones at around 50.00 - which don't offer the same experience as building something from the ground up - the little Norden which needs converting for RC and some skill is now closer to 80.00 - and that is a good introduction kit for plank on frame construction....... The sort of thing a new builder with a little acquired skill could handle.

[Colin Bishop]

Sarik Hobbies offer a number of plan/wood set semi kits, many of them based on Glynn Guest designs. Some also make reference to the original magazine build article so enabling a copy to be found. OK, not a kit in the conventional sense but should be within the ability of a lot of people.

The old simple EeZeBilt (ex KeilKraft) deigns can be downloaded for free from this website:

http://eezebilt.tk/

Colin

[redpmg]

A friend created the EeZeBilt website along with the Old Boats, Marinecraft, Adamcraft & Taycol sites where plans can be downloaded for free (with the exception of Taycol where only advice is offered). Those are fine for experienced modellers - what I was suggesting is that with novices & youngsters it would be great to have everything in one package at a reasonable price - and not have to obtain parts from different sources. Difficult for someone who does not know much about it. That was the reason for the purchase of the Anglian tug..........

It is somewhat ironic that there are such a lot of kits & bits available in what must be a shrinking market - including some kits costing in excess of 500 quid..................

[Circlip]

Thanks to T'internet (And China) cheapest way and lack of patience is always going to be instant gratification as far as most youfs are concerned. More than thirty years ago, a couple of weeks for a scratch build elicited a "Oh that's to long" for a pair of Pac-man paddlers.


  Regards  Ian

[Colin Bishop]

Sorry, but I think 'encouraging youngsters into the hobby' is really a lost cause. There are simply too many more attractive options open to them than making model boats. As Ian says, it is all about instant gratification these days. If they do want a model boat then RTR is likely to be the preferred option.

Yes, there will always be exceptions, but a signifiant commercial market for basic wooden kits simply isn't there. I suspect most SLEC Aerokit sales are to oldies revisiting their youth. Insofar as slightly older youngsters want to build something then plastic kits are the obvious option. The subject matter is more interesting too, how many kids these days are interested in creating superannuated cabin cruisers? If they do see full size leisure craft then they will be looking at sleek, white hulled speedboat types.

Colin

[Perkasaman2]

This thread has too much old doom and gloom humbug. Change is inevitable and I am optimistic as new technologies, materials and manufacturing evolve. The best recruitment I believe happens at the side of the pond where enthusiasts enjoy their models and are viewed by youngsters and indeed people of all ages. Cheer up for heaven's sake, wake up and smell the coffee. Lets have glasses half full.

[Taranis]

 


Kits are like wine. The more you pay the better the value and any kit will cost you twice the price to finish it.


Ability is priceless you can't buy that.

[redpmg]

Andy you can pay a lot for a kit - and its a disaster - conversely a cheap one can be great . Both HA kit build blogs I have read have only praise for the kits - the same goes for the cheaper Aeronaut kits - I have built quite a few of the Billings lower priced kits and not had a problem with any - but I have heard plenty of complaints about some really expensive kits as to accuracy of detail etc - and sometimes quality/scale of wood & fittings - especially from the scale model builders.

I live in the SA wine producing area and can tell you from experience some of the really expensive wine is not worth the money - a R 1000 bottle was really terrible whilst a R100 one was great - from the same vineyard (fortunately I did not pay for the expensive one......). One has to judge by the value of things - not the price.

Agreed we need to lighten up - was simply thinking of ways to encourage youngsters - always had a "have a go" boat for youngsters at the Johannesburg club - same boat was also in demand by kids at Setley Pond in the New Forest................  Picture attached
 

[canabus]

Hi All


We have a COME and TRY boat from a decease member of the club.


Old radio and a 540 brush motor but with a small Lipo battery.


So far all the club member's have had a go and a heap of kids and adults.


Canabus

[Circlip]

Nowt to do with doom and gloom Perkasaman2. The original post was the criticism of one manufacturer not producing a superkit. It's down to economics not outlook and the gloom is exhibited to some by the fact that the hobby can't be enjoyed without chequebook/credit card dominance. At the time the model in question was originally released (escaped) the quality of the wood supplied was abysmal as ALL will attest BUT, you still had to "Do your own thing" to achieve a superior (?) result OR a "Cheap" representation of a type, either result is down to the builder. I stated on this forum MANY years ago, Some build to build, some built to sail, it's down to whatever floats yer boat, literally. As far as kit manufacturers go, don't shoot the messenger and all that glisters is not gold.


  Regards  Ian.

[Taranis]

The cost of kits and parts is not prohibitive in the slightest. There is something for everyone and compared to the Xbox/PlayStation and their games I think we do ok