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[rhavrane]

Bonjour,

https://youtu.be/vxhKvpuLJmU 

If you are interested, find his email address in the description of the video 

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
If you are interested in Jean-Marc's modules, please contact him via his website:
http://electronique-ljm.com/index.php/modelisme
 

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
Jean-Marc's modules validated on  5 et 6 mm diameter pipes 
5mm : https://youtu.be/lQ7VqbAtP2c
6mm : https://youtu.be/gT3VKSaZcwE

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,

The water level detector for steam boilers created by Jean-Marc is now available for tubes from 4 to 8 mm. of diameter. Input voltage (5V - 7.2V), maximum output power 100 mW, sufficient for example to operate a servo-mounted pump.

Orders via his site: http://electronique-ljm.com/index.php/modelisme/22-cat-carte-niv-o-vap

You should check whether your boiler can accommodate this before ordering.
I would like to clarify once again that I am a customer like any other, just passionate and that I pay for all the accessories that I share with you.

[Mege66]

Hello Raphaël


I have now watched the two videos and visited the website where I hoped go find more technical data. But I found nothing.
I still wonder what the water level detector can be really be used for except to switch a LED on or off.


Don‘t get me wrong, but a timer on my remote control warns me reliably of an empty boiler, too, and doesn‘t need any additional electronics at all.


While the warning lamp could be be considered helpful on its own, it is not really what I would expect from an electronic solution. The ideal solution should in my opinion allow to control a servo for e.g. operation of a bypass valve or switching a power switch for an electric pump. Like the Deenes or the old Cheddar ABC system.


Is this just the begin of a project or already the final solution?

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Mege66,

Being the lucky owner of a large fleet of boats I buy in different shapes and that I like restoring and enhancing, I  have always timed them all in my bathtub, at least for those under 1.37m 

However, real life is always different, especially when i make my boats sing, so I am very careful and stop my navigations often too early.

Some of them have an electric RC pump which I use at will, others have a close deck and a small autonomy, so I decided as requirement to look for something reliable just able to give me an accurate indication of my water level.

A very few options exist on the market and for me they are awfully expensive based on my requirement. My friend Jean-Marc has answered to it.

Sorry if I speak French in my videos but I think you have understood the principle of this module, you are right, it just lights on a LED when the water goes below the electronic infra red sensor, this is why the initial calibation is needed.

The important point to note that you can replace the LED by any 6-7,2V output device as soon as it it consumes a maximum of 100w. This voltage is the input voltage as you can remove the receiver connector to add a dedicated battery 2S LiPo for example.

Advantage, as is, it is able to drive automatically a servo pump starting and stopping depending on the water level for example.

Furthermore, you can install a relay to manage more power.

I pay 50,00 € (<> 54,00 USD) for a module at home, that is perfect for me based on my requirement "basic functionality, economical and easy to use". You are right, it is not and advanced electronic device but how much will you pay for the brands you evoke if you don't need all their features?

Its limit is the level tube position ; https://youtu.be/1ibjlS9-Otc

Besides this, I always manage my gas with mechanical regulators, example https://youtu.be/Gc8bITIar2U


And I have never found the opportunity to be obliged to manage my bypass valves during my navigations as I learned how to adjust them during my tests. About them, to my opinion, some people make the mistake to beleive that the water level should stay constant in the boiler, I just say that the gas tank has to be empty before the boiler, this is how I adjust them.

We never aimed to copy the existing modules.

I hope this message will enlighten you on our approach.

[Mege66]

Hi Raphaël

I enjoy your enthusiasm and especially the very many videos on YouTube and would not hesitate a second to call you an important embassador and apostle for live steam model boats and anything related to it.

This morning I noted the price information on Jean-Marc's web site. I must have overlooked this yesterday (or it has been added yesterday evening..). The price looks right to me, I am tempted to buy a unit for testing.

When it comes to the features of the water lever sensor, however, I still have some questions for you before ordering

• in the post of September 16 you wrote that the output can switch loads of 100mW. That would be fine for switching a LED, but almost no other load.
• In yesterdays message (September 17) your wrote "100w" output power which is almost certainly a little over-enhusiastic if you meant 100W (although I would very glady accept this as a fact as it would allow to switch almost any load I could wish to connect to this sensor).
• In this video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ibjlS9-Otc your define the maximum output current as 100mA which would equal 6W at a voltage of 6V. Not bad, but in my opinion too little to directly switch a servo pump (the servo current when drivin a pump must certainly be 1..2 Amps, depending on boiler pressure and pump ram diameter). 

May I suggest to add a technical specification sheet to the website which contains the technical data and an electric diagaram showing how to connect the load?

Keep up the good work!

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Mege66,
At first, thanks a lot for your kind words. I would like my passion to be communicative and for young people to take over instead of turning to the digital world.
Everywhere, manufacturers are disappearing and there will soon be little choice left for those who buy like me, which I admit is totally dissuasive.

To come back on our topic, you are right again, I have made a mistake in my last messages, the right figure is 100 mA as you can read it in the notice written by Jean-Marc : http://electronique-ljm.com/images/Notire_Carte_Niv_O_Vap.pdf because is it the maximum capacity offered by a receiver on one of its ports.

Electricity is far from my favorite subject   and I hope this notice is sufficient as you can't be wrong in the wiring, three as input on the receiver, two for the output, black = negative, red, positve i, both cases, white = signal, male in and female out servo Futaba type connections.

This is exactly why the output can accept the load of a servo.

I hope this information answers to your questions and if you would have more accurate answers or possible specifications, don'th hesitate to contact Jean-Marc at his address "eljm at electronique-ljm dot com".

[Mege66]

Thank you  Raphaël

I think it's just partly true what you say about the suppliers. It is not yet that bad as long as we have the choice from Martin Baylis, JMC, Regner, Clevedon Steam, the Australian comapany (name forgotten.. getting older) or Microcosm just to name a few. And I have certainly forgotten to name one or two. But I miss Cheddar Steam which I once visited on a holiday trip some 25+ years ago. Especially the very cute Gemini. On the other hand, that steam engine was almost unaffordable expensive then. With the current exchange rate that would stillbe a great engine. Past times...

Coming back to the sensor: I think I now understand the limitations of the system. I might be a little bit more familiear with electrics, so I dare saying that with 100mA max current the servo will not be able to directly drive a mechanical pump because that will take much more current than 100mA. But the water level sensor can be used to drive an electronic power switch which then in turn can control an electric motor connected to a pump. Just another elecronic model in the else very mechanical system.

Now I am already looking veeeery forward to your video reports from Cabariot after the next weekend. Enjoy the meeting !!!

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Mege66,

I will be happy to meet Martin Baylis at the Cabariot this weekend


About a servo pump, its limit is not the power of the module but the speed of the servo, I have two, a Regner in my Resolve tug: https://youtu.be/UjHXR5gZ45o and a JMC not yet installed: https://youtu.be/VZVgnLSGGH0

Videos next week and I will ask Martin to help me make an English version

[DBS88]

Re water level control or gas control, or gas and water control, there is a great company called Denes Design Solutions that is making some fantastic electronic controls, they are very good. Here is a link to a video of me testing my water water level control, with a servo and an electric pump, the water level control unit works very well. https://youtu.be/41JYk1btA78?si=wvb0LjrkAQFqF3Ss


I have a number of their products, the automatic boiler controls are really good, much better than the Cheddar ABC. The gas controller is simply brilliant at maintaining the boiler pressure. Here is a link to a video of me setting up my unit prior to putting the steam plant back in my boat. https://youtu.be/n0LRzokdgSM?si=m1GyVVhvhMIIi8On


Here is a link to their website  https://www.denesdesign.co.uk

[Mege66]

Hello DBS88

I think these systems serve different purposes and are not directly comparable:

While the Deenes controller controls water level and gas flow electronically, as did the Cheddar ABS system, the French system is rather a visual water level indicator/warning which can supplement a timer. 

Personally, I feel more attracted by the straightforward water level warning system, which doesn't require much adjustment and also doesn't have much potential for glitches. It should help captains who have so far 'only' used a timer on the transmitter to squeeze out the last few minutes of running time. Or to draw attention to too quickly falling water level in the event of increased steam consumption.

Perhaps this is because I do not want to carry too much electronics in a model steam boat.

[rhavrane]

Thanks Mege66, perfectly summarized, that's exactly it 

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
Quite "funny", Denes has made now a simple and cheap (?) new product wich has the same feature... the story of the egg and the chicken repeats itself 
Little difference, Jean-Marc adapts its sensor to 4 - 8 mm glass pipes : http://electronique-ljm.com/index.php/modelisme/22-cat-carte-niv-o-vap

[Dainesh]

Dear Rafael,


This is an old product, originally I made it to replace the original Cheddar ABC water level sensor (my electrnics adventure in the steam world started there), this is my first product.


I just add a led on the output. Without the LED it is compatible with the original Cheddar ABC.


It is strange because I sent this product to you last summer, but I don't think that you touched it.


This little unit is using 30-40mA.
Plus it is measuring the sensor temperature, I tested the first one above 100 degrees of celsius.


Not mentioned the water debouncing :) As an upgrade to the original Cheddar ABC sensor, which switched the water servo on and of each time the water level dropped below the sensor level.


DBS88 has a video from 24/04/2022 where he run his steam engine with an original Cheddar ABC together with my little sensor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDypu_L4PGM&t=3s


You told that I'm expensive. Unfortunately, you are right my high end products are not cheap, but if somebody read the Users Manual, and connect them up properly they are working without any issues. In the worst case here I'm and I would try to help.
These units has many many options and took a lots of time mainly evenings and night to develop.


It wasn't easy to find the right components, from the proper manufacturer (Mainly I use Texas Instrument and Microchip components), I try to avoid the cheap chinese electronic components.


DBS88 and Bunkerbarge tested them a lot and they let me know immediately when they found an issue. I think these two modellers have high level of knowledge to acknowledge their experties.


Anyway, if you ever come to the UK Gloucestershire please visit me, I will have some nice English tea, and Italian coffee.   
I promise that I will get steam boat, and you can try all of my products on it, and we can have a chat about them, or if you would like to discover the surrounding we can go to Forest of Dean, Cotswolds, or climb the Great Malvern 


I know they can't be perfect for every individuals, but these products are universal.




Regards
Denes

[rhavrane]

Bonjour Denes,

I completely agree with you, I say it and I repeat it, the desire that I expressed to Jean-Marc was to give me/us a simple and economical way to measure the water level.
I readily recognize the quality, the rich features and therefore the price of your products, prices unfortunately increased by various taxes due to the fact that you left the EU for us French.

Just for memory, you sent me several beta versions of your new complete module, not the one you present now and which actually corresponds to what I was looking for and I sent you back the videos of my tests, videos that I never published moreover.

We don't talk about money on the forum, just to tell you that I haven't found its price on your site.

In France, no one to my knowledge has a Cheddar ABC module, old or new. I had seen David's video, confirming the richness of your system.

Jean-Marc does not have the objective of conquering a market, he just wants to please interested vaporists with a very simple solution, so, as I am the initiator of the project and I bought all my cards at the announced price, I feel right to advertise it because I am satisfied with it.

I had the pleasure of meeting Martin Baylis during Atlantica Steam and I also told him that it was horribly expensive, which did not prevent us from sharing, in moderation, a good red wine from Bordeaux, I will be honored to share a cup of tea with you if I pass near your home.

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
A complete installation in which I manage manually the pump when needed : https://youtu.be/qthtgp7T9aQ 
Could I make more simple 

[1967Brutus]

Bonjour,
A complete installation in which I manage manually the pump when needed : https://youtu.be/qthtgp7T9aQ 
Could I make more simple 

Wow... you've got a pretty fast feedpump! Mine is a lot slower, and 50 ml takes about 5 minutes!

But one word of warning: Feedwater never is completely oxygen free (not even when I take every precaution to prevent dissolved oxygen).
This dissolved oxygen is released when the water heats up, which allready happens a few centimeters before the water actually reaches the boiler, because of heat conduction in the metal fittings.
The Microcosm boiler has its feedwater connection at the bottom of the level glass.
It is my experience with this boiler (now well over 50 operating hours) that the level glass becomes very unreliable once the feedpump is running, on average I have to blow off the glass every 10 minutes at minimum due to air bubbles getting stuck in the lower connection. These bubbles interfere with the glass following the actual boiler level. Usually the "misreading" is too high (level in the glass is higher than actual boiler level), in very rare occasions the misreading is too low (actual boiler water level higher than is shown in the glass).

Mind you, I am NOT talking about the air bubbles in the glass itself. I am talking about airbubbles trapped in the fitting below the glass, you cannot see them but they are there. You can recognize it by the water level in the glass behaving different than normal, like for example several seconds no movement, or very large variations, or the pumping action of the feedpump being visible in the glass. If you see that, then your level indication is not correct and you eed to blow the glass.

It MIGHT be that your pump is fast enough to push these bubbles out, but that is difficult to tell.

This is the reason why I decided to go with "timed feedwater supply" (feedwater pump runs parallel with the opening of the steam control valve to the engine) instead of pumping based on waterlevel.

If my boat is on the water for, say, 30 minutes and I come in to check the level, I need to blow off the glass first otherwise I will not have a proper indication. Usually the glass shows full after 30 minutes, while the actual level is, as intended, approximately halfway the glass.

I am sure that most boilers have a properly functioning level glass, but unfortunately, Jin's design does not...

I installed this valve on top of the glass, to solve this issue: https://www.modelbouwforum.nl/attachments/20230930_101117-1-jpg.555012/
It blows off to below the water surface of the feedwater tank, so I do not lose the water, and there is no dangerous steam or hot water flying around.

[rhavrane]

Bpnjour Bert,
I fully agree with you, this assembly has a very relative reliability and I have already noticed that air bubbles disturb the measure, however my requirement was to have the simplest installation possible.
about electric pumps, I have several ones, including mounted on servo (Regner), as soon as I can, I lightly increase the voltage and let them operate.
For my Microcosm one, I have bought a x4 engine (70 ==> 240 RPM) :  https://youtu.be/FNy_x-RR9mE
But could we find a better one than tis one : https://youtu.be/ECWJJIMAVeg     

[1967Brutus]

Well, no argument about that

I will either look for a faster servo to replace the current 3001 (I have a S9254 that I can modify, it is a lot faster but probably the digital electronics are not suitable, but maybe rip out the electronics and use a small 1A ESC?) or I'll have to fabricate a wider cylinder and plunger for the existing pump.

[1967Brutus]

Well, no argument about that

I will either look for a faster servo to replace the current 3001 (I have a S9254 that I can modify, it is a lot faster but probably the digital electronics are not suitable, but maybe rip out the electronics and use a small 1A ESC?) or I'll have to fabricate a wider cylinder and plunger for the existing pump.

I decided to test with the original electronics first.
All I did to the servo, is to remove the potmeter-driver from the output gear, as well as the rotation limiter cam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2Tgj_PLs14

Now mind you, I had this servo laying around doing nothing, so for me this solution was basically "free" and it took me about all of 15 minutes to modify the servo. This servo was back in the day pretty expensive and it was manufactured and sold in large numbers but nowadays has more or less become obsolete, I would not be surprised if a good one can be picked up for less than 25 Euro or less. So this is a good solution for anyone that has a Regner pump or the one Raphaël showed in the other thread, if it does not meet demands.

This servo should be capable of delivering about 2 litres per minute compared to the approx 0,55~0,6 L/min of the original Regner specs.

[1967Brutus]

It MIGHT be that your pump is fast enough to push these bubbles out, but that is difficult to tell.

I have done some testing with this, and a fast pump does indeed improve the situation a bit. It is not a 100% cure, but I have observed over about 90 minutes of steaming that the problem with air interfering with the functioning of the level glass becomes less if a sufficiently fast pump is used.

I can not (yet) give accurate numbers, but it has all appearance that a feedrate of 1 L/hr or more, will push airbubbles out from the lower glass fitting.

I do not know if this info is useful, because the max capacity of the Microcosm boiler is about 1 kg/hr of steam so that would mean you will have to run the plant continuously at full speed to make it work.

[derekwarner]

Bert....there are a number of references here, that a slither of copper strip [a nominal 0.5 thick x 1.5 wide x 10 high], installed in the lower end of the gauge sight glass...   bouncing around with the ferocity of the bubbling boiler water, causes the gas bubbles to explode & displaces them upwards from the gauge glass


Again, the size of the copper slither is nominal, but simply sized, causes a mechanical interference with the gas bubbles


Derek 

[1967Brutus]

Bert....there are a number of references here, that a slither of copper strip [a nominal 0.5 thick x 1.5 wide x 10 high], installed in the lower end of the gauge sight glass...   bouncing around with the ferocity of the bubbling boiler water, causes the gas bubbles to explode & displaces them upwards from the gauge glass


Again, the size of the copper slither is nominal, but simply sized, causes a mechanical interference with the gas bubbles


Derek

I think you misinterpreted: The problem is NOT with the airbubbles IN the glass...
The problem is with airbubbles lodging in the horizontal part of the fitting, right about where it threads into the boiler.
These airbubbles restrict water movement to such an extent that the glass does not indicate properly anymore.
This is recognizable by two or three symptoms that can happen alternating or individually.
-Sometimes the action of the feedpump becomes visible in the glass as a very steady, rhytmic and regular oscillation.
-Sometimes it can be observed that the waterlevel, normally always bouncing up and down a bit due to the boiling (about 2~4 mm or so) suddenly becomes "steady as a rock".
-Sometimes the glass just simply very slowly rises to all the way full.
The last one always happens after the 2nd one, and it is especially this one that is "dangerous": I have seen a near full glass drop to basically empty after blowing off the glass, meaning a level control based on an optical level sensor cannot really be relied upon without a regular blow-off.

I do think this issue is specific to the Microcosm boiler due to its feedwater connection being at the lower level glass fitting.
I would think a boiler with a separate feedwater fitting should not experience this.

I do NOT have airbubbles in the glass itself in any of these cases (they happen occasionally, but that is not what I was referring to).

[derekwarner]

No, I did not misunderstand....as you clearly stated......

"Mind you, I am NOT talking about the air bubbles in the glass itself. I am talking about airbubbles trapped in the fitting below the glass, you cannot see them but they are there."

Well it would not be too difficult to install a 90 degree copper slither, to mechanically disturb the bubbles you cannot see

Derek