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[Dreadnought]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/crew-member-dies-as-fire-on-ship-carrying-3-000-cars-burns-out-of-control/ar-AA1envjE?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=1c6926cb7a4c47428957f6d93d61b7c8&ei=6

[Baldrick]

That is now three large car carrier ships that have been lost in the last two years due to suspected EV battery fires in cars on board.
The Felicity Ace off the Azores
The Grande Costa d'Avaro in New Jersey
The Fremantle Highway off Holland.

[kinmel]

It is always confusing to watch huge volumes of water being squirted at the sides of a ship that is engulfed by fire.


The hot metal of the above surface hull has already been destroyed by the heat and the rest of the hull is already under water.
If sufficient water is somehow directed into the hull in the hope of extinguishing the fire, the free flowing water on the upper decks will cause it to capsize. It is a purely "do something" reaction, a fire-fighting boat's actual purpose is to deliver large volumes of water onto dockside fires.


Two excellent examples of such fruitless operations were the Empress Of Canada in Liverpool in the early 1950s and USS Bonhomme Richard in San Diego in 2020.

[Tug Fanatic]

That is now three large car carrier ships that have been lost in the last two years due to suspected EV battery fires in cars on board.
The Felicity Ace off the Azores
The Grande Costa d'Avaro in New Jersey
The Fremantle Highway off Holland.

And they want me to have one,  and charge it, in my integral garage.

[Fastfaz]

  Isn't it strange that there is not much being said about putting out these fires in a traffic accident and the relevant dangers to the emergency services? Have a look on Youtube at "Geoff buys cars" I promise you you will be amazed at what he has uncovered especially the post on the Royal Mail changing to Electric vehicles, you couldn't make it up the stupidity of the Accountants,
      regards, Pete 

[Circlip]

Didn't think chucking water on burning LiPos put them out 


Regards   Ian.

[Colin Bishop]

This Government guidance on risks associated with EVs on ferries makes interesting reading and actually does say that a lot of water is the best way of suppressing the fire as it cools down the battery and slows the chemical reaction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mgn-653-m-electric-vehicles-onboard-passenger-roll-onroll-off-ro-ro-ferries/mgn-653-m-electric-vehicles-onboard-passenger-roll-onroll-off-ro-ro-ferries

Colin

[Barney Magrew]

""It is always confusing to watch huge volumes of water being squirted at the sides of a ship that is engulfed by fire.""
It's called boundary cooling and is an acknowleged protocol when fighting ship fires.

[davidm1945]

It would be interesting if some of the major carriers and ferries refused to carry Electric vehicles

[kinmel]

This Government guidance on risks associated with EVs on ferries makes interesting reading and actually does say that a lot of water is the best way of suppressing the fire as it cools down the battery and slows the chemical reaction.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mgn-653-m-electric-vehicles-onboard-passenger-roll-onroll-off-ro-ro-ferries/mgn-653-m-electric-vehicles-onboard-passenger-roll-onroll-off-ro-ro-ferries

Colin

An interesting document that tells you what to do, but fails to address the reality of actually doing it.
The following is a true description from a firefighting forum on dealing with a developed fire involving a single Tesla S in the open air....." Last September we had the full XVR scenario: Tesla Model S, full thermal runaway, next to a house down a country lane, no hydrants.  Knocked it down before it caught any more of the house. Winched it away from building and jacked it up with spreaders, fan spray underneath, and a big early assistance call  meant we had a water shuttle going fairly pronto. We were there for about 7 hours in total (though it had cooled earlier than this, associated tasks like PPVing the house and putting out polybooms to divert the considerable water run off from going in the front door took time).
Recovery company wanted specific time/temperature readings before they would take it away which itself needed a check by the neighboring fire service when it got to the depot. "
Special fire fighting equipment is coming onto the market, but no-one has the funds to purchase them for such specialist use....  https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/22/rosenbauer-introduces-new-firefighting-equipment-for-ev-battery-fires/

[kinmel]

""It is always confusing to watch huge volumes of water being squirted at the sides of a ship that is engulfed by fire.""
It's called boundary cooling and is an acknowleged protocol when fighting ship fires.

Boundary cooling refers to preventing fires from spreading within a structure, or vessel, I have done it myself in factories and ships aand the crew above prevented the fire spreading into the house.   The hull of the ship is beyond any useful boundary.

[Bunkerbarge]

Boundary cooling refers to preventing fires from spreading within a structure, or vessel, I have done it myself in factories and ships aand the crew above prevented the fire spreading into the house.   The hull of the ship is beyond any useful boundary.

Boundary cooling is simply a technique of cooling down the boundary of a fire for a couple of possible reasons.  1) As you say to prevent the spread of heat to an adjacent compartment by preventing conduction through the structure.  2) If is also very effective at removing heat from a compartment without actually entering it.  This can have the effect of causing the fire to dampen down and eventually extinguish itself as there eventually isn't enough heat to sustain combustion.  I once had to deal with an economiser fire that was burning deep in the tube stack but had reached sufficient temperatures that the metal was burning.  We shut down the air supply with canvas over the engine turbo chargers then boundary cooled the external surfaces of the economiser in the funnel for around 12 hours.  We used very little water for most of the process, actually trying to provide only sufficient to flash off into steam while little drained into the machinery space.  Eventually the surface temperature remained stable, then started to fall.  We entered the economiser after 24 hrs of recording ambient temperature.  Had we opened up during the fire we would have admitted oxygen from the air and any water we would have put into it at those burning metal temperatures would have broken down and provided further oxygen to supply the fire.  In certain cases boundary cooling can be extremely effective at fighting a fire when access is not possible.  What must be avoided with ship fires is putting the water into the hull, where it will drain down and create stability issues leading to possible capsize.  Cooling the outside of the hull and allowing the water to drain back into the sea is a very useful technique of trying to get an internal fire at least under control to such a point as entry might be considered.

[Martin (Admin)]

 
https://youtu.be/wjVmqMavlc4
 
https://youtu.be/AKdShb0ykdU
 
 https://apnews.com/article/cargo-ship-fire-netherlands-environment-sea-ca213ea320ba2c664d12e960c52331ee

 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-cargo-ship-fire-electric-car-suspected-source-dutch-coastguard-2023-07-26/
 
 

[Barney Magrew]

""Boundary cooling refers to preventing fires from spreading within a structure, or vessel, I have done it myself in factories and ships aand the crew above prevented the fire spreading into the house.   The hull of the ship is beyond any useful boundary.""
The hull of the ship is the boundary in a major fire.  It will reduce the heat within the compartments to prevent fire spread and possibly allow earlier entry when commiting fire crews.
My experience is in teaching fire fighting at sea for many years, both in training and serving front line.

[Baldrick]

Thermal image of the problem.  The fire has spread entire deck  length of the primary site and thence to upper deck areas .




[size=78%][/size]

[Bunkerbarge]

""Boundary cooling refers to preventing fires from spreading within a structure, or vessel, I have done it myself in factories and ships aand the crew above prevented the fire spreading into the house.   The hull of the ship is beyond any useful boundary.""
The hull of the ship is the boundary in a major fire.  It will reduce the heat within the compartments to prevent fire spread and possibly allow earlier entry when commiting fire crews.
My experience is in teaching fire fighting at sea for many years, both in training and serving front line.

That's what I said! 

[kinmel]

These hulls have large open deck areas containing a high fire load, I don't remember any of them returning to service after a serious fire because of successful hull cooling.

[Barney Magrew]

No more to be said, on my part.   Every Fire Service, RN and Merchant Navy adopt boundary cooling as an established protocol.  I don't think arguing about it and comparing examples is going to achieve anything more useful.

[Bunkerbarge]

I think trying to turn the discussion into a point scoring exercise is of very limited value.  The benefits of boundary cooling have been presented, which are well regarded as industry standard, and do not really require further justification.  As was already mentioned above the times when the procedure has failed have sadly too frequently been as a result of not following the appropriate protocol and applying too much water internally.


In this case the fire may well be beyond any form of control and will simply have to take its natural course.  I have absolutely no doubt that external boundary cooling still provided the best chance there was available to try to save the vessel.

[Bunkerbarge]

Interesting that members here still ask nowadays why there is a limit on the time available to edit posts.  It was introduced to try to prevent one or two members who seemed to enjoy posting argumentative and inflammatory posts then editing them and claiming innocence after the responses had been posted.  Good to see things never change.


Maybe the ability to edit should be removed completely! 

[Martin (Admin)]

Monitoring topic - Admin      

[Colin Bishop]

Fire Monitoring Martin? 

Colin

[derekwarner]

It would be interesting for the thread to continue without any need for moderation 


My reading appears the latest technology EV and their power supply was the source of the initial combustion


My 2006 Mitsubishi Lancer VRX Wagon    has 223,000 km under the belt........ I don't believe [hope] I will purchase an EV....[in my lifetime]


How do other Members feel?


Derek

[tonyH]

Surely the problem is that the tech keeps changing so, for example, if the Koreans do manage to finalise and produce their dry LiPo by 2030, I'm sure a lot more of us would be willing to explore the option from a safety standpoint. At present, I'm happy to keep my powder dry.

[Tug Fanatic]

Never say never.

Our current car, purchased new, is a Euro5 diesel. When we purchased it Euro5 was the bees knees and the answer to many problems..............then came Euro6. Literally overnight we became the enemy. We were targeted for emissions zones, car park charges & all sorts of other nasties. We are generally grouped as "not Euro6" and therfore became the enemy.

I have a feeling that Euro6 will become the enemy the day that Euro7 becomes compulsory (2025.07.01) and heaven help fossil fuel users the day electric drive becomes compulsory.

I am just pleased that we don't need to buy a new car at the present time but when we do..............??????????