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Author Topic: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb  (Read 4476 times)

captain_reg

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A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« on: December 25, 2023, 06:27:08 pm »

I'd been looking for a Glasgow for quite a while. Eventually I managed to get hold of one earlier this year together with a Cheddar steam plant. In theory ready to go with a bit to finish and some cosmetic work. As you will soon see the work has been much more in depth than was expected 7 months ago  %% Here she was as she arrived to her new home.

The first issue became immediately apparent, starting with a simple bath test. The super structure had been planked over which quickly revealed that the glue used wasn't up to the task as each and every one began to spring free. I couldn't see a simple fix so decided to immerse the paddle boxes and find everything that was going to spring free and see where that left me.

This is where I ended up, giving a great opportunity to customise the cut outs in the side of the paddleboxes. I decided to keep as much as I could hoping that if it hadn't come off by now, that it would stay put. The loose planks had araldite pasted underneath and the fully loose planks were reinstalled again with araldite. I made sure to take a bit of time to remove a bit of the excess material from the planks to give a bit more expansion room in the future. No idea what glue had been used originally but I scraped off as much as possible, the residue being quite gummy in texture. Tape, clamps & hope did a great job of holding the reaffixed and new planks and the new side panels were fitted with a generous quantity of araldite. All was sanded and undercoated and dunk tested. A few minor places tried to break free but a little more patience and araldite got it able to withstand a good dunking. Actually not quite, a few problem areas remained and as a final last ditch attempt and treated all problems areas with a 50/50 tung oil / white spirit mix which was left to penetrate deep into the wood and 'cure'. Paint was then applied on top which to my luck adhered no problem ontop of the oiled wood. Thankfully this seems to have resolved the issue entirely. Currently 3 weeks into a 2 week refurb :}


Thankfully finally some good news, the boiler 'passed' my DIY pressure test so I was confident about being able to get all the required testing and certification sorted eventually. I hadn't been able to test the boiler before purchasing so this was much needed relief that I hadn't bought scrap copper :-)) I was then brave enough to steam test and thankfully can report that it has steamed at home many times since without issue.
I shoe horned a battery and motor aboard to take it to down to the club for a quick test. I've never had a paddle steamer before so wanted to understand it's handling etc before committing to some decisions later in the refurb. It actually sailed great and I now knew the eventually paddle RPM I wanted to get a decent speed. It was stable and the turning circle was good enough. I'd noticed by now that the main paddle wheel shaft wasn't actually perpendicular across the boat so that was something that was going to have to change. It didn't actually seem to affect it sailing but I just couldn't leave it as was. Also discovered that the paddleboxes had been made wrong somehow causing water to cascade over the deck and into all the unsealed hatches and flood the hull. Thankfully I found this in the bath and decided to brave the lake with the masking tape providing the sealing. Thankfully I got away with a about 10 minutes without issue.


Can't be much more to do now? Can't be much more to uncover? I'm afraid we still have a way to go. The next delight was to discover that the deck had decided to part ways with the hull around the bow on the starboard side. The section around the centre was firmly attached so I didn't see any hope of removing it as one piece. In hindsight I should've cut the deck across either side of the red painted centre section. At this point in time I thought only one point was going to give way but it later turned out to be all around. Thankfully however I was able to repair this quite effectively. I also took the opportunity to straighten out the deck as for some reason, the deck wasn't located into the recess into which it should've been glued. Time to get out the araldite again. I drilled a series of 1.5mm holes around the affected section and after filling a syringe with the araldite (a bit of head thins it quite nicely) injected this through the holes and with the boat keelside topwise gravity flowed it nicely to resecure the deck.



In the end I had to do this all around which in hindsight if I had realised at the time I could've removed large sections of the deck to give better access. Anyway time to straighten up the paddle wheel shaft. So drill out the exisiting brass tube and replace with two brass bushes soldered into a tube. I planned to drill a small hole from the inside bush to allow oil to get into the central 'reservoir'. Then araldite in position, taking the opportunity to straighten up some sections of the deck and reaffix the combing that had also come away.



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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2023, 07:23:44 pm »

For a moment it felt like things were starting to come together but I now had two choices what to tackle next. The planking around the edges of the deck needed to be redone to match the straightened deck or... I'd realised that the sponsons that support the paddleboxes were glued waaaay more than the 3 degrees that they should be. It's going to be a big change so best tackle that first. I was having difficulty getting reliable results using the suggested template from the graupner drawings so decided to make a jig and call on the help of a laser level to at least get the sponsons set correct relative to the paddle wheel drive shaft. Aluminium spars were inserted through slots I cut under each sponson. There were pushed through and araldited to the structure of the deck and main hatch taking all the load off the thin plastic sides of the hull.



Next was to repair the planks that had been affixed along the sides of the deck to the gunwhales? and the gussets that I had already removed. after a quick look I decided it would be easier to just remove all the exisiting and replace them with new rather than try to fit each to the exisiting quite erratic spacing. Thankfully this was actually quite easy to remove them and sand away the same (still tacky after 25 years) glue that had caused me the issues earlier on the paddleboxes. This was a mix of 4x1.5mm walnut that came with the boat and 7x1mm tanganyka strips I had from another project. Just a very repetitive process to cut each one working from front to back and supergluing in place.



Now time to sort out the paddleboxes. Seems that the wood planking that had caused me the issues earlier on has come back to haunt me again, it appears that the ones that we firmly glued have actually caused the thin plastic the distort. I straightened the paddleboxes with some lime strips and balsa blocks to pull them square(ish). I also fitted the covers for the paddle wheel shaft. I also glued in a bit of a 'flashing' strip to try and tidy up the join and stop the water splashing over onto the deck


Something I have forgot to mention was that the removeable parts of the sponsons to allow for the paddle wheels to be removed we solidly glued in and quite frankly were a bit of a mess. So I'd cut them out to be able to dismantle things to get this far so I needed to make replacements. I made replacements from from Sapele bench slats. The existing sponsons had been built up to offset some error somewhere in construction, I tried to remove this but had no luck so just had to go with it. I milled a slot in the top to allow the feather mechanism to sit at the right height relative to the shaft.
I've come this for so to not repaint the hull would be a bit silly really. This is something I've struggled with recently having fallen out with the new formula of Humbrol which used to be my goto. More recently I've had dissapointing results with the Halfords auto enamel finding it to be not very durable and hard wearing. So I decided to try the Halfords enamel range this time. Bit long winded but I promise we'll get to the steam stuff soon enough  ok2 First step was to sand with 400 then 800 wet or dry. Then a coat of adhesion promoter because I have no idea what paint has been used previously. Red primer was sprayed all over first. Then the laser level came out to determine the correct waterline and ensure this was set correctly relative to the paddlewheels. This was then masked and the black upper parts were sprayed. I got this this point and had to decide if I was to continue and try the white stripe. I quite liked the look as is and figured there was a degree of risk attempting to get the white stripe correct.


Very happy with the finish so far and was utterly gutted how the line came out. In hindsight I wished I hadn't bothered at this point but I was this far so might as well try and save it.

Masking, masking, masking and more masking. Many many attempts to neaten and even up the edge. Compared to how neatly the line between the red & black went, I really stuggled to get the same sharp line here. Oh well, best I could do and couldn't bring myself to start again and probably get the same result. The thin line masking tape I tried (not Tamiya) seemed to be naturally wavy and trying to get a nice smoot curve took ages and was far from perfect.











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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2023, 08:49:42 pm »

Finally time for the steamy parts. I did an initial trial fit of the steam plant as I receieved it. Some issues with blocks that had been glued into the main compartment getting a bit close to the burner. The gas tank was a nice snug fit in the bulkhead but wouldn't be easily removeable. Most of the plant was mounted on a wooden base that had been raised up on 1/2 inch high legs which I didn't really like as I felt it moved the centre of gravity upwards unnecessarily.

This is my first 'real' steam boat, I've dabbled last year with a Wilesco D48 in a steam launch but with no deck and access hatches that was a walk in the park compared to this. I very quickly abandoned the idea to put the items individually into the hull deciding instead to mount everything to a single removable base. So this is what I eventually settled on. The boiler position is pretty fixed by the funnel. The gas tank is removeable via the front hatch. The wooden block under the engine, is a placeholder for a large condensate tank I'm planning. Believe it or not this whole thing feeds quite easily into the hull. Not enough hands to get a photo or video of it so you'll have to take my word for it.

The gas tank arrangement took a bit of trial and error to something I was happy with. I wanted it to be easily removable to allow for filling outside of the boat. There are 4 M1.6 socket head screws in the wooden base that act as locating lugs. The tank drops straight down through the hatch without obstruction and then once it is almost fully lowered, you move it about 1/2 inch backwards to allow it to drop onto the lugs and then the gas pipe screws on easily. The gas valve was from Clevedon steam as it didn't feel right sailing without a way to shut off the gas remotely. The reason for the gas pipe being so long and convoluted was firstly to get it somehwere I could fit the gas valve whilst keeping the servo away from the engine. Primarily though it gives it quite a bit of spring and flex which was initially required to fit the gas tank past it before I figured out it worked better with the tank not aligned with the hatch.

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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2025, 04:55:44 pm »

Due to the hull being really thin plastic I'm considering lining the inside with glass fibre cloth. Does anyone have any idea of the resin used would possibly have any effect on the plastic? I don't want to end up melting or damaging the plastic in anyway but would like some form of reinforcement that I can retrofit now that the deck is on.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2025, 07:01:22 pm »

Don't use polystyrene resin! Epoxy finishing resin with lightweight glass cloth should reinforce the hull but ideally you need to abrade the plastic surface first where you can access it to get a surface bond. It may not be a strong bond but probably enough for stiffening the hull.

Examples:

https://deluxematerials.co.uk/products/fibreglass-cloth-1oz-1m2?_pos=1&_sid=257979023&_ss=r

https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/PT41.html

Colin
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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2025, 05:26:34 pm »

Spot on, thanks  :-))
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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2025, 03:14:14 pm »

Hi All
Hoping to get some help and advice with an issue that has been driving me mad. It's a Cheddar steam plant in this boat and I don't seem to be able to go more than about an hour or so of sailing time before the port faces on the cylinders look like this.


I'm sure it must be lack of oil. I'm using the standard displacement lubricator that came with the engine from Cheddar. I decided to do a bit of a test by disconnecting he steam supply to the engine and catching what comes out. Firstly I just let the whole system warm up and then emptied and refilled the lubricator. Over 10 minues what I saw was 99% of the oil was discharged within the first minute. I then cleaned the pot to be able to see what came out over the next 9 minutes... and the answer was not much.

Minute 0 to 1



Minute 2 to 10



Do I have any chance of getting this working to get a steady oil supply over a 10-15 minute run with the current set up or could swapping to a different type of lubricator help? Currently it is just the standard Cheddar models one where the steam supply passes straight through, I was thinking I might be better off with the type the hangs off the side of the pipework with a regulating valve... like this one https://maccmodels.co.uk/shop/live-steam-fittings/lubricators/displacement-lubricator-5-8-dia-3-16-x-40-2/
Any thoughts?
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KBIO

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2025, 08:27:02 am »

Hello !
This is the brilliant demonstration that the oil lubrication is mandatory on our small machines. I say that because we have a couple of smart steamers on this side , who shout all over that it is useless to lubricate. They probably never heard of the tribology .
In your case, first of all , I would move the lubricator next to the engine.
 I asked myself so many questions about this "oiler" , I would start by asking you what is the type of oil , you are using ? Due to the steam temp , you need real thick oil. Cheddar  sells some.
Some people are convinced that olive oil does the job ! I heard so many funny things about it !  :o
Then ensure that the port letting the oil coming out is not too big . For such a small engine , you shouldn't be able to pass a needle through it !
On my side , depending of the engine, I favor the lubricator with an adjustable needle valve. I open it 1/3 and I run hours without any problem. Remember that in our case , the oil is just a friction reducer and you don't need too much. Exactly like a bit of fuel on the sidewalk that you cannot see , making our eldest slipping and breaking their fragile bones.
This is normal that the first shot of steam (which is condensate) empty ( but not that much) your oiler. The water taking place of the steam .
I recommend that you go through Keith Appleton videos. This man is a fountain of knowledge in our field.
https://youtu.be/ZSdmyOYwNdI?si=aR8wP4d5kTlxnzlU
I like the types described at 3,20 min because when you know your plant , you know how many turns to open the valve.
I hope that it is of any help , but often , the answers bring more questions ! O0
Have a good day !





derekwarner

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2025, 10:52:45 am »


Some very wise words and questions from KBIO, I could only reinforce the comment on Keith Appleton........[I subscribed to his WEB pages @ $1.00 per month for over 3 years]

-------------------
The visual degree of radial scoring shown to the Cheddar horizontal twin engine piston faces and standard appear significient, however any attempt to hand linish these scored faces has the potential to make them usless <*< >>:-( unless absolute flatness and angular relationship [thru 360 degrees] is maintained to the bushed bore in the cylinder and the fixed bore in the standard

------------------
 
You have pledged $1.00 monthly to Keith Appleton. Your pledge renews automatically and your next charge will be Sunday, August 1, 2021 (Pacific Time).You can cancel or edit your payment, review your billing history, or change your payment method at any time on your memberships page You can read our terms here
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1967Brutus

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2025, 06:08:52 pm »

In this particular case, I can STRONGLY reccomend the glass bodied lubricator that Microcosm sells: The glass body allows a visual check of oil consumption, and it has a needle valve to control the oil flow.
It also has a very nice large volume (approx 3,5~4 ml) AND on top of that, it has a drainvalve at the bottom to drain out the condensate.

http://www.microcosm-engine.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19&products_id=183
It is maybe quite an expensive item, but IMHO, especially for situations like this, the fact that you can visually check oil consumption, and adjust on the fly, is IMHO well worth it.

I use one, and my engine has done 120 hrs in about 2 years, with to date running behaviour rather improving thatn deteriorating.
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DBS88

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2025, 07:47:34 pm »

The advice given is sound, suggest warming the engine for a couple of minutes to minimise the condensate being produced, then stop the engine, empty the displacement lubricator of water and refill with good quality compounded steam oil 220 grade or 440 grade for our small engines and the re start the steam and let the engine run - there should now be minimal water condensate - just enough to force the oil into the steam line rather than a deluge that washes all the oil away. The approach seems to work well and makes the oil last a lot longer.
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rhavrane

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2025, 08:40:36 pm »

Bonjour,
Advice given by elder model makers, use a sheet of PTFE : https://youtu.be/E-dQGGOg0CE
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1967Brutus

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2025, 09:50:53 pm »

The advice given is sound, suggest warming the engine for a couple of minutes to minimise the condensate being produced, then stop the engine, empty the displacement lubricator of water and refill with good quality compounded steam oil 220 grade or 440 grade for our small engines and the re start the steam and let the engine run - there should now be minimal water condensate - just enough to force the oil into the steam line rather than a deluge that washes all the oil away. The approach seems to work well and makes the oil last a lot longer.

There is something wrong with the "cold system forming excessive condensate and washing out the oil" theory: It is physically not possible for a cold start to empty a full lubricator.
For the lubricator to work, there needs to be condensation IN the lubricator. Since there is only ONE opening connecting the lubricator to the steam line, and the lubricator being full, any liquid water CAN not enter the lubricator to displace oil, since pressure in the lubricator is identical to the pressure in the steam line.
That whole principle of oil being displaced by condensate, is ONLY possible if steam enters the lubricator and condenses there, contracting and drawing in more steam.
Any water present in the steam line, if that would enter the lubricator, it won't condense because it already IS water and cannot contract any further, so it won't draw in more steam. In that sense, a displacement lubricator is pretty much selfregulating.
With a filled lubricator, the first lubricating is caused by the oil warming up and expanding. By the time the "condensing" part of the working principle comes into effect, the steam lines are allready dry.

Typically, the steam line is allready warm and water-free within a few seconds of running. The engine takes much longer to warm up (in my case roughly 30 seconds) but the engine is downstream, and a cold engine does not affect a hot steamline or oiler.

My observation WRT displacement oilers, is as follows:
At the start of a run, my lubricator is filled to where oil level is at the needle valve. No water present.
At the end of a typical run, about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the oil content is displaced by water, BUT... when everyting is cooled down and I look inside, the oil level is at least 5 mm BELOW the needle valve. In other words: the oil expands and contracts considerably when heating up or cooling down.
Wind or ambient temperature increases oil dosing, during a colder or windier day, about half the oiler empties, while during warmer or windstill days, about 1/3rd is consumed.
I have spent HOURS sitting next to the bathtub observing, and my oiler has a glass body.
There is NO inrush of water in the lubricator at cold start-up. There IS a significant "first shot" of oil upon starting a cold engine, which I can only explain by the oiler being cold, and the oil expanding when it heats up rapidly, but that "first shot" is at best something like 1/10th of a ml.

I have experimented a bit with both "filling to the brim" and "filling to the level I found after running and cooling down" (appr 5 mm below the needle valve).
In first case (filling to the brim) the first shot becomes larger, but after that I had the distinct impression that the displacement did not really come into effect, which is logical if it is considered that there is no open space above the oil where steam can enter and condense.
When filling the lubricator to 5 mm below the needle valve there is no, or barely any first shot, because the oil has to first warm up before its level reaches the needle valve aperture. But it is very hard to tell when exactly lubrication becomes effective.

If an oiler depletes too rapid and there is no needle valve, one could consider insulating the body of the oiler, since the oil feedrate is dictated in part by rate of heatloss at the oiler (if less heat is lost, less steam condenses, and less oil will be displaced).
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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2025, 08:33:50 am »

Hello !
I am not an expert and I can only share my small experience but I think that
it's a good idea to use a glass condenser to see what is happening on the oiling side. It also allows calibration of the oil rate in the steam line through a needle valve
On top of it , the thermic conductivity of the glass is nil compared to the brass and allows a greater condensation .
I also agree that it is not normal to empty the condenser in a few minutes at the beginning. It happens when the hole allowing the oil to pass through is  too large. I had the example on mines. On your engine a hole od 3/10 mm is perfectly adequat.
I just want to underline that we are just looking at traces of oil in the steam to reduce the friction of the metallic parts.  Below is a schematic of the principle of this type of condenser The water in the assy helps to cool down more than the air as it is in our case , but the principle is the same. The difference of temp (at equal pressure) allows a small condensation to displace the oil toward the steam line. I was also wondering if the is a Ventury effect when the steam passes by , but I won't bet on that !
The displacement oiler was introduced in the United Kingdom in 1860 by John Ramsbottom. It works by allowing steam to enter a closed container containing oil. After condensation, the water flows to the bottom of the container, causing the oil to rise and overflow into distribution pipes. The oil from the distribution pipes is fed into the steam pipe, where it is atomized and transported to the valves and cylinders.
That's all I know !  ok2

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #14 on: Today at 08:40:57 am »

There is something wrong with the "cold system forming excessive condensate and washing out the oil" theory: It is physically not possible for a cold start to empty a full lubricator.
For the lubricator to work, there needs to be condensation IN the lubricator. Since there is only ONE opening connecting the lubricator to the steam line, and the lubricator being full, any liquid water CAN not enter the lubricator to displace oil, since pressure in the lubricator is identical to the pressure in the steam line.
That whole principle of oil being displaced by condensate, is ONLY possible if steam enters the lubricator and condenses there, contracting and drawing in more steam.
Any water present in the steam line, if that would enter the lubricator, it won't condense because it already IS water and cannot contract any further, so it won't draw in more steam. In that sense, a displacement lubricator is pretty much selfregulating.
With a filled lubricator, the first lubricating is caused by the oil warming up and expanding. By the time the "condensing" part of the working principle comes into effect, the steam lines are allready dry.

Typically, the steam line is allready warm and water-free within a few seconds of running. The engine takes much longer to warm up (in my case roughly 30 seconds) but the engine is downstream, and a cold engine does not affect a hot steamline or oiler.

My observation WRT displacement oilers, is as follows:
At the start of a run, my lubricator is filled to where oil level is at the needle valve. No water present.
At the end of a typical run, about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the oil content is displaced by water, BUT... when everyting is cooled down and I look inside, the oil level is at least 5 mm BELOW the needle valve. In other words: the oil expands and contracts considerably when heating up or cooling down.
Wind or ambient temperature increases oil dosing, during a colder or windier day, about half the oiler empties, while during warmer or windstill days, about 1/3rd is consumed.
I have spent HOURS sitting next to the bathtub observing, and my oiler has a glass body.
There is NO inrush of water in the lubricator at cold start-up. There IS a significant "first shot" of oil upon starting a cold engine, which I can only explain by the oiler being cold, and the oil expanding when it heats up rapidly, but that "first shot" is at best something like 1/10th of a ml.

I have experimented a bit with both "filling to the brim" and "filling to the level I found after running and cooling down" (appr 5 mm below the needle valve).
In first case (filling to the brim) the first shot becomes larger, but after that I had the distinct impression that the displacement did not really come into effect, which is logical if it is considered that there is no open space above the oil where steam can enter and condense.
When filling the lubricator to 5 mm below the needle valve there is no, or barely any first shot, because the oil has to first warm up before its level reaches the needle valve aperture. But it is very hard to tell when exactly lubrication becomes effective.

If an oiler depletes too rapid and there is no needle valve, one could consider insulating the body of the oiler, since the oil feedrate is dictated in part by rate of heatloss at the oiler (if less heat is lost, less steam condenses, and less oil will be displaced).


I have also observed that after a run the lubricator is not full to the top with water and oil, which means that heating the oil must make it expand, like Brutus says.

You could play with plugging the hole and redrilling it a smaller size, but it is difficult in an already built lubricator. It will take some work and experimentation.

A lubricator with adjustment valve and sight glass really is the best option, because it also allows you to use different grades of oil and adjust accordingly.

I really like and have used the glass lubricators made by Niggel in Germany, very high quality:
https://www.modellbau-niggel.de/Verdr%C3%A4ngungs%C3%B6ler-l203.html
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captain_reg

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #15 on: Today at 12:38:23 pm »

Thank you all, some great thoughts and discussion. I hadn't thought about the thermal expansion, I think I tend to overfill the lubricator so that might account for the initial dumping of the large amount of oil. Funny thing is, after the test runs I was always left with a small amount of oil& water mix, never just water and this has got me thinking that maybe in the enclosed boat I'm actually not getting enough condensation to displace the oil after the initial thermal expansion has pushed out my overfilling.
Talking to someone at the club, they suggested maybe a mechanical lubricator but that seems overkill and I should be able to make it work with the displacement type as everyone else seems to have success with. This design of engine is mostly run vertical, the optional conversion to paddle engine was a rare one according to the manufacturer. I'm looking at the groove across the cylinder faces and think than when upright they will be horizontal so would tend to hold any oil that is pushed out from the port faces, continuing to lubricate as the cylinder rocks. The way I have it mounted, they are vertical so anything would just tend to run straight out and down.
There's a chap who used to work for the manufacturer who now runs his own business who usually attends the Blackpool show in Novemeber so I was also hoping to ask him. In the meantime more testing I think and I might try making a different lubricator with a valve, doesn't need to be pretty, just needs to show if it makes a difference or not.
Thanks again.
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ooyah/2

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Re: A Graupner Glasgow Refurb
« Reply #16 on: Today at 05:56:12 pm »

Reg
I sent you a P.M. last Sunday, please check your message in box.


George.
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