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[Geoff]

One thought about the engine running full speed on start up and then the boiler pressure dropping. Is this being done with the boat in the water because otherwise the engine revs will be excessive. A simple way to look at a steam engine is that you have so many bites of steam from the boiler. If there is no resistance on the engine the revs will be high and it will use many bites very quickly. If under load the revs will be considerably less and far less bites uses so the boiler pressure is maintained. This may also be the reason for the condenser filling up so quickly because you are taking so many bites.


Cheers


Geoff

[ir3]

Hi Geoff,


The steam plant is on the bench so no loads on the engine.


For all of the other contributors, following suggestions, the jet is a #8 and the jet holder is set at the factory recommendation. The jet is clean. I hooked up the fuel tank directly to the jet holder and fired the boiler. When the boiler was at around 60PSI I opened the steam valve on the boiler and with the steam input valve on the engine closed the pressure holds at about 60PSI with the safety valve relieving pressure as needed. I slowly opened to steam valve input to the engine and set the throttle to a very low RPM. The pressure dropped slowly from60PSI to below 15PSI where the engine stopped running. Throughout the process which took less than a minute the condenser had a considerable amount of water in it. I plumbed another boiler that I have directly into the engine and all ran perfectly.


If someone knows of a boiler technician in the US that I can send the boiler to for a complete evaluation, please let me know. If not, I will send the boiler to Jerry at Clevedon Steam. I am putting the Mountfleet Cruiser project on hold until the boiler problem is resolved. The overall plan was the install the Proteus Steam Plant in the Cruiser. If that isn't going to happen, I have some alternative possibilities for a different steam plant. I am just taking too much time and getting nowhere with the Cheddar at this time.


Worst case, the boiler is shot. I can live with that.


Thanks once again for all the input.

[DBS88]

Glad to hear the engine is running well, thats a major headache sorted, well done. Re the boiler, before sending it away, please do post some photos of the boiler showing how it is piped into your steam plant, this will help with assessing what might be the issue. The fact that it is possible to raise steam and get it to 60 psi are positive signs, so don't give up hope just yet, there will most likely be a simple explanation.

[ir3]

OK, back on it. The problem is either the water control valve or the check valve on the boiler. It might have been suggested in this thread that water was being pumped back into the boiler constantly so the boiler could not maintain pressure. I disconnected the reserve water tank supply to the pump and ran the steam plant. WORKS PERFECTLY . As I understand the workings of the water control valve, the valve is open for bypass and closed to allow the pump to fill the boiler up to the water level sensor. The problem is water is always being pumped into the boiler whether the water valve is open or closed. I am assuming that with the water valve in bypass position, there isn't enough pressure to force water through the check valve on the boiler and thus the water goes back into the reserve tank. Could the check valve on the boiler be the culprit?


It seems that if I run this steam plant in the classic way, gas tank straight to the boiler, no water pump to replenish the boiler I will have a perfectly running steam plant.

[DBS88]

First and most important, do not run the pump dry, it must be pumping water, other wise it will burn out the seals, there are challenging to replace.
With the engine running the pump is always pumping water, from the onboard tank round a loop to the pump and back to the onboard tank, it's a low pressure open circuit. On the return leg between the pump and the tank there should be a by pass valve with a servo. This valve closes and diverts the water supply from the pump to the boiler, it's important that the valve closes hard so that no water passes back to the onboard tank (this will need checking). The pipe from the pump to the bypass valve and to the boiler needs to be a copper pipe since it has to withstand pressure greater than the boilers pressure of 6 Bar, before water will enter the boiler.
Where the boiler feed water enters the boiler there should be a non return valve, this will need checking to make sure it's functioning correctly. Please add photos of your set up so we can help.
On one of the Proteus sets I purchased, it had been piped incorrectly and was always pumping water in the boiler, once the two pipes were swapped over it was fine, please show us the piping at the pump and show where the by pass is

[ir3]

Here are some pictures:

[DocMartin]

Deleted.

[ir3]

The documentation was not very clear on this, or I just did not understand it. I will make the change.


Thanks, and hopefully there are no more problems.

[DocMartin]

The shut-off valve needs to be plumbed between the pump and the boiler.  When open the pump will fill the boiler.  When closed, the pump will circulate the water back to the reserve tank.

[DocMartin]

The servo controlled valve should be dedicated to this feed line. 

[DBS88]

Your piping is the right way round, the valve closest to the pump needs to be fully open, it’s not needed for your arrangement. Your  abc controlled valve when it’s open allows water round the by pass circuit to the tank when it’s firmly closed the water is the forced into the boiler. The first two photos show the correct piping the third is the one I received that was not correct.

[DBS88]

Placing a shut off valve as suggested by Doc at the Red Cross will work as well

[KNO3]

The shut-off valve needs to be plumbed between the pump and the boiler.  When open the pump will fill the boiler.  When closed, the pump will circulate the water back to the reserve tank.

No, that is wrong. The Proteus pump is correctly piped in the pictures, the valve has to be on the bypass pipe.

[1967Brutus]

OK, back on it. The problem is either the water control valve or the check valve on the boiler. It might have been suggested in this thread that water was being pumped back into the boiler constantly so the boiler could not maintain pressure. I disconnected the reserve water tank supply to the pump and ran the steam plant. WORKS PERFECTLY . As I understand the workings of the water control valve, the valve is open for bypass and closed to allow the pump to fill the boiler up to the water level sensor. The problem is water is always being pumped into the boiler whether the water valve is open or closed. I am assuming that with the water valve in bypass position, there isn't enough pressure to force water through the check valve on the boiler and thus the water goes back into the reserve tank. Could the check valve on the boiler be the culprit?


It seems that if I run this steam plant in the classic way, gas tank straight to the boiler, no water pump to replenish the boiler I will have a perfectly running steam plant.

No, the culprit is that your feedwaterpump is continuously pumping cold water into the boiler. That will first of all cool the boiler down fastr than the fire can heat it up, lading to the pressure drop. When the boiler is full, water will come with the steam, and water cannot driive a steam engine, therefore the hydrolocking.

Get your water level control working, and you will have a running system, your burner will be able to keep up, and your engine won't hydrolock anymore.

[ir3]

I switched the lines per Doc Martins suggestion, and it seems to work OK. In my case, with the valve open, the water gets pumped back to the reserve tank. With it closed, water moves into the boiler. With no water going back to the boiler, the engine runs nicely at 60PSI, and the ABC cycles the gas if the pressure gets too high. The big problem is still the amount of water in the engine exhaust. To add, I am in Southern California and trying to get fuel is very difficult, probably due to PROP 65.  I am out of fuel at the moment so no more testing. This will also put a damper on all of my other steam projects so it may be the end of the line.


Thanks for the help.

[ir3]

Fuel finally arrived and so back to the Boiler. I wondered if somehow the burner was having problems, so I checked it out and with a 4.5mm air gap, the flame color looks good. So, not the burner. The problem of the very wet steam still alludes me. The piping from the boiler to the engine is Cheddar Factory installed. After many exchanges with Jerry at Clevedon Steam, I plan on sending him the boiler for evaluation. In the meantime, I will be installing electrics so I can finish the boat and get it on the pond. I plan on leaving all the mounting blocks in place when and if I reinstall the steam plant. I am at a dead end. If there is any suggestion at all as to how to determine the cause of the problem, please let me know. It just appears the boiler, while getting up the 60PSI, is not producing super-hot steam.

[DBS88]

Progress is being made and this last bit is frustrating. It positive the boiler is heating up and is achieving 60 psi so can't be too much wrong. It seems like the steam thats been made is being used too fast? Not sure how far you are opening the boilers steam valve? suggest just opening it a small amount, enough to get the engine running, rather than all the way to see if that helps maintain the boiler pressure when the engine is running. I found this helped on my twin puffin set up.
Next, if you have another engine, try running that from the boiler and see what happens, the idea here is to see if its the boiler or the engine thats the issue - since its possible the engine is letting too much steam go straight to exhaust although this seems unlikely since the engine is now running well.
Good luck, having worked through so many issues it will be good to solve the last of them

[ir3]

Just a follow up. I tried just cracking the steam valve on the boiler and the engine does turn over at a low RPM. Opening the valve a bit more causes the engine to start to speed up. It is still adding a lot of water to the condenser. I hooked up another steam engine, a Martin Bayliss Double Compound. I ran it at 60PSI, and the engine runs beautifully. Water is also being added to the condenser but quite a bit less. I did not do a long run with the double compound but, to be sure, a lot less condensate is being produced. So, it may come down to the Proteus engine itself and not the boiler. Because of the behavior of the engine with the boiler valve just cracked, I would think there are no problems with the engine either. But, even at very low speeds, there still is a lot of water in the exhaust steam. I can't do much more here so I do think I will send the engine to Jerry and see if he can find a problem. In the meantime, I checked into temporarily installing electrics in the Cruiser, but I think not. I'll just shelve the Cruiser for now.

[Mege66]

Most of my 5cts of Live Steam wisdom has already been shared by others in this thread. I agree with the statements that the diagnosis would benefit from a video.

The best guess on my part is that there is nothing wrong with your Proteus at all, but you are using the engine in such a way that you are running into a situation where the condensate tank runs full.

Originally, I completely underestimated the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up. My Baylis and Cheddar engines also produce a lot of condensate, and most of the condensate is produced when the engines are started cold. As soon as the engines have warmed up, more condensate is produced, but to a much lesser extent. Baylis engines have an advantage over Cheddar engines in this respect due to their lighter construction.

I therefore think that the relatively small condensate tank that is supplied with the Cheddar Proteus is simply too small to run this engine without completely emptying the condensate tank after the engine has warmed up - i.e. before the boat is launched.

On my Topaz with the Cheddar Gemini engine, the horizontal condensate trap originally supplied was already so full after the engine had warmed up that condensate was being carried into the steam exhaust pipe in the chimney: It started spewing oily droplets into the pond when the regulator was abruptly opened.

So my standard procedure is to warm up the engine first, then empty the condensate tank and then put the boat in the pond. The amount of condensate produced in the next 20 to 25 minutes of operation is less than the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up.

Try running the Proteus like this and let us know what happens.

[1967Brutus]

Most of my 5cts of Live Steam wisdom has already been shared by others in this thread. I agree with the statements that the diagnosis would benefit from a video.

The best guess on my part is that there is nothing wrong with your Proteus at all, but you are using the engine in such a way that you are running into a situation where the condensate tank runs full.

Originally, I completely underestimated the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up. My Baylis and Cheddar engines also produce a lot of condensate, and most of the condensate is produced when the engines are started cold. As soon as the engines have warmed up, more condensate is produced, but to a much lesser extent. Baylis engines have an advantage over Cheddar engines in this respect due to their lighter construction.

I therefore think that the relatively small condensate tank that is supplied with the Cheddar Proteus is simply too small to run this engine without completely emptying the condensate tank after the engine has warmed up - i.e. before the boat is launched.

On my Topaz with the Cheddar Gemini engine, the horizontal condensate trap originally supplied was already so full after the engine had warmed up that condensate was being carried into the steam exhaust pipe in the chimney: It started spewing oily droplets into the pond when the regulator was abruptly opened.

So my standard procedure is to warm up the engine first, then empty the condensate tank and then put the boat in the pond. The amount of condensate produced in the next 20 to 25 minutes of operation is less than the amount of condensate produced when the engine warms up.

Try running the Proteus like this and let us know what happens.

This is a realistic assessment, could very well be true.

My own Microcosm M29, in its original form (pre-feedwater pump, condensate reclamation etc etc) would run about 10~15 minutes on a single boiler filling.
The condensate receiver has a volume of appr 30 cc (1 fl.oz.) and the cold start of the engine would fill that receiver to more than half of its capacity within about 30 seconds of runtime. The rest of the volume would be gradually filled up during the remainder of the boiler content.

[ir3]

I tried the suggestions and with the condenser out of the exhaust system for now, the steam plant operates perfectly. I am now not so sure there isn't a problem with the condenser or the chimney stack or both. With the condenser in the exhaust loop and the engine running at pretty brisk speed, water is dripping out of what Cheddar is calling the Offset Pipe Outlet to Drain. There seems to be enough pressure within the condenser that condensate is being forced out through this pipe. I do have this pipe plugged. That is where I see the water collecting on top of the condenser. It appears that the pipe in the chimney is not open enough to relieve the pressure in the condenser. I would include a picture of the setup, but it is hit or miss as to whether I can upload one. Is there a specific procedure for this? I use exactly the same procedure that I used to upload pictures in previous posts.


OOPS, I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!

[DBS88]

The oil separator will work better with larger dia piping especially on the exit from the separator, the pipes in and out of those separators are quite small and restrictive

[1967Brutus]

I tried the suggestions and with the condenser out of the exhaust system for now, the steam plant operates perfectly. I am now not so sure there isn't a problem with the condenser or the chimney stack or both. With the condenser in the exhaust loop and the engine running at pretty brisk speed, water is dripping out of what Cheddar is calling the Offset Pipe Outlet to Drain. There seems to be enough pressure within the condenser that condensate is being forced out through this pipe. I do have this pipe plugged. That is where I see the water collecting on top of the condenser. It appears that the pipe in the chimney is not open enough to relieve the pressure in the condenser. I would include a picture of the setup, but it is hit or miss as to whether I can upload one. Is there a specific procedure for this? I use exactly the same procedure that I used to upload pictures in previous posts.


OOPS, I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!

Suggestion: Do as I do, install a sludgetank in the boat.
route the "offset drain pipe" to this tank, with a restriction in that line. Tune the restriction such that at full load only liquid, no or minimal steam escapes.
That will keep the moisture away from the steam exhaust, and it will keep your pond cleaner, as this condnsate can contain oil that would otherwise be blown out of the funnel, possibly staining the pond, endangering your club's environmental permits...

Here a vid with a provisional set-up...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUNN3FOJzQM

[Mege66]

All right, we‘re getting closer to the problem. Check ALL steam pipes between engine and stack/chimney (including the condenser internal ones) for free steam flow by sticking a piece of silicone tube on one end and blowing through. If you can blow through without any effort, then the steam will also run through as it should. If not, then the pipe is obstructed by anything. The pressure you can generate with your lung is about 0.1..0.2 bars (1.5..3 psi). Steam will escape a small engine at higher pressure. So if you can blow through easily, then the engine can do so, too.

[Mege66]

What you should also check is whether the steam line from the condenser to the chimney is attached to the correct of the two connections on the top side of the condensate trap. One of the two connections reaches almost to the bottom of the tank and is used to drain the condenser when the machine is running. Clamping the exhaust steam line to the chimney creates an overpressure in the condenser, which forces the condensate out. The hose at this outlet is normally sealed with a plug (as on your photo). The exhaust steam pipe is connected to the other connection, the extraction point of which is at the top of the condenser, so that no condensate enters the chimney unless the tank is really full. I myself never really know which of the connections is for what and always have to check this.