Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: vintagent on June 24, 2010, 12:35:46 pm
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I've been having a chat with a couple of friends in model boating who all decry the dearth of any downloadable plans to speak of for model boats.
They make the very correct point that the aeroplane fans have hundreds of old plans which come under the SAMS auspices, but we boaters are stuffed.
They also made the point that when a thread is set up[ asking for anyone who can send copies of plans, they are sent, bewilderingly to build logs!
Well, we CAN build, thanks, we just want the plans, Ma'am, just give us the plans!!
As dodgy geezer has set up the Eezibilt site, perhaps he'd like to do one for the bigger Aerokits as a step on from the tiddlers, or at least give some pointers to anyone who would like to get an Aerokits site going. And PLEASE don't worry about copyright.
What are they going to do, sue you for advertising their non-existant product?
So, to recap...where are all the downloadable plans (MAP are stupidly expensive) AND
who's for doing an Aerokits site, with plans, instructions, history, pics, etc.?
Regards,
Vintagent
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have a look at http://modelfireboats.com/index.php thats running doing a similar thing with a lot of aerokits type builds
Peter
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Need to watch your fingers on this one Vintagent cos the word "Copyright" swings into force and as the latest owners of the old MAP archives may not have paid the original designers any bags of silver, they hold the master drawings.
And just as an aside, don't mention this to one of the forums respected contributers (Bovine skin apparel) as it's a sore point with a "Flee" seller. >>:-(
Regards Ian.
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I also believe that Caldercraft own the Copyright of the Aerokit designs.
Barrie
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I also believe that Caldercraft own the Copyright of the Aerokit designs.
Barrie
They do and they manufacture the 46" Sea Queen.
The 34" Sea Commander is currently in development.
http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Aerokit_Front.htm
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Then it's about time they got their fingers out and did something with them. I have it on good authority that their attitude has always been to kill them off by sitting on them.
That won't do. if they won't do 'em, we will by just swapping the plans around between ourselves. The onus of proof on "copyright" is always with the alleged "injured party".
I know of someone who is planning on reproducing most of them. Good luck to him, I say. All Caldercraft have the rights to is maybe the logo and arguably the plans, which can be redrawn in an evening, but still look the same and then with laser cutting the model is completely outside any notions of copyright. A lot of tosh is spoken about copyright. having been on the "injured" end of it and having been a fellow of the Institute of Industrial Artists and Designers I've had a good deal to do with copyright.
Let's sit back and enjoy on that one.
BUT... having a site that helps share plans that cannot be claimed by existing rights holders and also mentions Aerokits would be a big help.
The Fireboat site is fine, but isn't specifically Aerokits in the way that Eezibilt site is. And where's the copyright on them?
Regards,
Vintagent
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just how long does copyright last? most of the aerokits designs are 50-60 years old
what would be the difference between a ste hosting a few grubby old model boat plans to one that hosts thousands of copies of music files for free distribution???
lets have em all.... Aerokits, veron, nor-star, etc
get real
db
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Would it really be that hard so to knock up a new set of plans and make it free of copyright. As long as it was your own design ?
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Hmm... a lot needs to be said here, and I'm too dog tired to say much, but, 4 what it's worth:
I would strongly support the idea of saving 'lapsed' plans from oblivion, and would certainly add any MarineCraft or other 'lost' plans to the EeZeBilt site if they came my way.
If anyone wants technical tips on running a website I would be happy to give what I could - but I don't think my site is a great example to follow....
Copyright is a strange beast - It was originally a 'bargain' between a creator and the public which let the creator have a monopoly for a certain time, to encourage ideas and creative works to be disseminated. In many peoples view, that bargain has been broken by corporate entities who have extended copyright way beyond its allotted time....
Be that as it may, there are a couple of points to make. First, if you distribute something which is not being sold and which nobody has any plans to sell, you are causing little or no damage. A copyright holder can ask you to desist, but probably can't justifiably sue you for large sums of money. However, if you distribute something which IS being sold, you could be causing commercial damage, and could put yourself at risk of being sued for larger amounts.
The second point is that if you are going to break a law - criminal or civil - it is a good idea to keep quiet about it. My pseudonym is well-earned....
In my case I am close to achieving my aims. I wanted to get the EeZeBilt plans onto the web for long enough to be archived to the Wayback Machine, and hopefully kept forever. I would love to do the same for other old boat plans which are in danger of being lost. Aerokits plans are not in danger of being lost at the moment, though I think there is a strong case to be made that JoTika have kept them off the market for an excessive time, and might be vulnerable to legal pressure to release them. Of course, you would need to see a copyright lawyer about that....zzzzz
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lets have em all.... Aerokits, veron, nor-star, etc
get real
I have the Sea Nymph and Sea Hornet plans built...
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=850696
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=890616
.. and i have the Sea Scout and Sea Rover plans yet to come to the building board..
Putting together a site dedicated to the Aerokits plans / boats is a good idea and I'm sure plenty of us 'old boaters' would be interested in having a look at such a site..
However...
Distributing the plans 'for profit' (or even as a mass scale swap) might raise hackles in the realm of Caldercraft / Jotika as they legally still own the copyright to the drawings / design... and put the person in charge of the 'Aerokits' site open to being sued by one or the other... Not to be recommended!..
Two other points..
You only have to approach Jotika about Aerokits plans and they will sell you copies!.. but because they were from kits, they dont come with bulkhead drawings, you have to work that out from the top and side view..
I would point out that Phil Smith of Veron fame was still selling his plans up until his death a couple of months ago... and as far as I'm aware, his family intend to continue selling Phil's plans..
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Distributing the plans 'for profit' (or even as a mass scale swap) might raise hackles in the realm of Caldercraft / Jotika as they legally still own the copyright to the drawings / design... and put the person in charge of the 'Aerokits' site open to being sued by one or the other...
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Not only 'might' - copyright and patent law includes the concept that you must defend your rights or you lose them. So Jotika would be forced to act, or risk losing their assets...
dbninja has already pointed out that there are 'sites' which already exist where copyrighted material is regularly swapped anonymously - the BitTorrent seeds. Nobody actually needs to set up a new 'illegal' site - there are plenty out there. Of much more use would be gaining an understanding of the principles of copyright law, and the whole concept of 'intellectual property' generally. And if you come to the conclusion, as I have, that it is fundamentally flawed, why not address your MP about it? You could start by complaining about the secret ACTA treaty..... http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1687620/the-acta-treaty-evil
Myself? I am on the 'Information should be free' side, but I am much more concerned about the way lesser known boat plans have fallen into oblivion, and think we should do a bit more to safeguard our history....
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I fully agree with you DG, nowt more to add :-)) :-)
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When I did the Jotika interview for Model Boats a couple of years back I was told that the reason the kits have not been reintroduced apart from the Sea Queen and maybe the Sea Commander was that Jotika felt that there would be insufficient demand to justify the start up and production costs. While I agree that Aerokits do have a distinguished place in model boating history, I do wonder just how many people would be prepared to buy them in this day and age and whether there would be an ongoing demand for them. When you look at what else is available on the kit market these days Aerokits don't really stand up too well in 'shelf appeal' with their 1950s cabin cruiser designs. Yes, quite a few of us might buy one for old time's sake but that doesn't necessarily constitute a market.
And I'm also quite sure from my discussions with Jotika that they would not hesitate to move against anyone they felt was infringing their rights, they've done it before.
If, as has been stated earlier, Jotika are willing to sell copies of the plans to anyone who wants them then they are still 'available'. There is no inherent right that they should be freely available.
Colin
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As a matter of interest Colin, how were M/B able to publish a Mini version of the Sea Hornet as a giveaway?? Did the smaller scale mean it didn't contravene the rules??
Regards Ian.
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I've no idea Ian, I had no involvement with that. My work for MB is strictly on a freelance basis so I'm not plugged in very far to the inner workings of MyHobbyStore. There may have been some arrangement with JoTIKA as they are advertisers but I don't know.
Colin
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While I agree that Aerokits do have a distinguished place in model boating history, I do wonder just how many people would be prepared to buy them in this day and age and whether there would be an ongoing demand for them. When you look at what else is available on the kit market these days Aerokits don't really stand up too well in 'shelf appeal' with their 1950s cabin cruiser designs. Yes, quite a few of us might buy one for old time's sake but that doesn't necessarily constitute a market.
With todays technology I don't understand the reluctance to remarket the kits. How long does it take to load a board onto a table, drop a disc into a drive and press a button? The old days of some poor s*d stood at a bandsaw hacking round a template are long gone. One comment made by a poster on another thread re the Lesro pilot launch was that the bits didn't slot together, Todays rebirth of some of the toy aircraft kits enable you to build the fusegulge in yer mits nevermind the flat an trusty(?) plank we had to get as a worktable.
Perhaps after Jan. next year we may see a change in marketing strategy.
Regards Ian
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.... how were M/B able to publish a Mini version of the Sea Hornet as a giveaway??
Quite often this sort of activity serves to keep the original brand name in front of the public, and gives useful data to the marketing boys on whether it is worth investing in a re-launch.
So, especially if you are doing a limited run, the rights owner may give you their blessing and assistance, in return for data on the sales/demographics of the buyers.
I would be interested to know what sort of agreement or relationship RepliKit have with Amerang (if any)...
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How long does it take to load a board onto a table, drop a disc into a drive and press a button? The old days of some poor s*d stood at a bandsaw hacking round a template are long gone.
There's a bit more to it than that Ian. Producing the bits is just one part of the manufacturing, marketing and distribution effort. Many of the other components entail fixed cost regardless of sales - advertising for example. I'm told that the most expensive single item in a kit is often the box that it comes in! At Model Slipway a new kit takes anything up to a couple of years to come on stream and that is with all the computer technology etc.
According to Jotika, The reintroduction of Sea Queen was partly to test the market. It looks as if the demand in commercial volumes isn't actually there. Manufacturers aren't stupid. If they think that there is an opportunity for a profit to be made then they will take it. Aerokits may be a cherished part of our history but basically that is what they are - history. A few old gents like us in their 60s with nostalgic thoughts of their youth don't constitute a viable marketing marketing niche.
Colin
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..or as any purveyor of Oriental Plastic Zabi-doos will say " I`m fed-up telling people like you there is no demand for it" <:(
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According to Jotika, The reintroduction of Sea Queen was partly to test the market. It looks as if the demand in commercial volumes isn't actually there.
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That accords with my view. Note that that does not mean that Aerokits will never be marketable - just not now.
It surprises me that Jotika did not start with the Crash Tender. That would have been the most popular of the lot, and would have sold a lot better....
Incidentally, I did not know that JoTika would sell plans - does anyone know how much for?
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Redesign the kits for modern production and the copyright's out of the window. Call them Airokits instead of Aerokits and the copyrights up the Swanney. But reproducing them it is only the idea of them and not the form. Change one line or far more so put them in computer form and they are totally new designs.
I don't really care whether someone else makes them or not, althougn I'd laugh like a drain if they did, my main point is a derelict range/model/boat is a public one. Aerokits ARE derelict to all intents and purposes and the comments made about the range in private by the "owners" show they haven't the slightest interest in them, ergo...derelict.
I shall continue to send prints of my Aerokits drawings to any one who asks, and a lot of others I have or I've done myself.
Purchasable plans are way too expensive. SAMS is showing the way but all the boaty types seem to run more scared.
Nobody's going to sue anybody. We haven't got a bean! That's why we want downloads or cheap plans. That's why if the kits ARE reproduced they'll be very inexpensive compared to Jotika's package! That particular guy knows his market and has done very nicely thankyou, treading on an army of toes on the way who thought the game was THEIRS. Good on him!
Copyright is like fraud. It costs ten times more to sue than win or lose.
BTW, you can copy a VW Golf to the last detail AND sell it. But you can't call it a VW or have TDi on the back. And I used to drink in Braunschweig Irish pub with VW's patent tsar!! So don't worry about copyrights.
Vintagent
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Whoa Colin, your dropping back into large volume country again. Two years? sorry, if you give Replikit a ring, providing you are prepared to pay for it, he will kit an individual offering as has just occurred for a "Mercury" A/C "Kit".
If you want a copy of one of MBS er MHS "Archive" plans from what was the APS range, they take the master, or probably scanned PDF file now, press a button and the plan is deposited out the end of a printer/plotter. Quantities of "Stock" copies are not held "Just in case" somebody wants one. This is the technology we've had to accept as the norm, no more underpaid Draughties spending hours with Uno's and Rotrings and wafting Ammonia stinking dyelines about. Conversly, once a DXF file is created, forget boxes of stock on the shelves waiting to be sold and laying out vast quantities of coins of the realm in piles of formers, cos when you set a conventional machine up you need to ammortise the "Tooling" set up and make more than one to be cost effective. Not so with a laser or water jet cutter, only one cutting head so one sheet at once.
I accept what you say with reference to Model Slipways New design to the market kit, but the Aerokit designs are already in existance, the formers may need plotting but to a trained pixel driver, how long is that going to take?? Marketing?? No more than a list on one of their existing ads, "Sea Whatever" Box of bits and plan ----£, and as far as Kitting one is concerned, I'm willing to take a wager that it will take less time to cut the kit than the National delivery service takes to actually deliver it.
Just the will to do it.
Regards Ian
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Incidentally, I did not know that JoTika would sell plans - does anyone know how much for?
When i ordered my copy of the Sea Hornet, i seem to remember the cost, including postage was under $10... It's been several years ago now, so costs may have risen a little..
I accept what you say with reference to Model Slipways New design to the market kit, but the Aerokit designs are already in existance, the formers may need plotting but to a trained pixel driver, how long is that going to take?? Marketing?? No more than a list on one of their existing ads, "Sea Whatever" Box of bits and plan ----£, and as far as Kitting one is concerned, I'm willing to take a wager that it will take less time to cut the kit than the National delivery service takes to actually deliver it.
Ahhhhhh... If only it was that easy..
'Someone' has got to get the existing paper plan in to a DXF format so a CAD cutter can understand it... that takes time and money..
The equipment costs have to be covered also...
Then there is materials costs...
... and development time and money and materials to produce pre production versions, those costs have to be figured in to the price of a kit...
So, "no".. It's not just a case of pressing a button on a PC somewhere and out pops a kit..
As far as copyright is concerned, I've just spent the last 18 months producing a glass hull. I've spent 100's of hours working the design, plug and mold up to a stage where i can produce hull's... You think i would let someone rip off a copy and start producing their own (for profit) after all my hard work?...
I think NOT.....
If Jotika own the copyright of the Aerokits range, I would expect them to defend that copyright to the hilt...
Someone may well produce copies of these old plans and maybe even kit them again.. but they ought to be waiting for that 'Cease and Desist' letter dropping on to their doormat...
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Forget Glass Toes, we're talking tree wood. After a layoff of over twenty years I managed to "Generate" a plan in a few hours and some of todays graphic artists could have done it quicker, also, I'm not advocating ripping the designs from Jokita, it's in their court, wonder if the "Queen" is cut out on a bandsaw? If so, someone there needs a serious talking to.
Monetary layout for "Machinery"? No, too many contractors would jump at the chance, it's called business. The "We'll wait and see" attitude sums this country up as does the "I've got something that you can't have and I'm going to sit on it" syndrome. Just creates resentment AND ripoffs.
Regards Ian
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Just out of interest, here is a small section of one of Jotika's computerised plans used to program their routing equipment.
Colin
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I've got something that you can't have and I'm going to sit on it
I don't think it is necessarily that - why would it be? More likely they had the opportunity to buy the Aerokits rights for a reasonable sum and are holding them as an asset for possible future use. They no doubt feel they can get a better return at the moment by putting their resources into developing their Nelson's Navy range - just a logical business decision.
I wonder what their reaction would be if somebody offered to license the Aerokits range from them on a royalty basis instead of attempting to clone them? Has anybody tried?
Colin
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A few old gents like us in their 60s with nostalgic thoughts of their youth don't constitute a viable marketing marketing niche.
Colin
<*< <*< <*< <*< and a few under 60 please.. :-))
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Don't worry Larry, you'll be there before you know it.... <:(
Colin
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there probably is a limited market for them, but like someone else said...
the timeles classic the Vosper crash Tender would be the kit to release at 34" :-))
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/dbninja/1275286435.jpg)
still a pretty boat!
the Sea Queen is just too big for many folk with modern small hatchbacks and quite expensive to make it "go well" due to its size
db
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Yep, Routing Colin, the technology is too old and material wasteful, that's why I said Laser or Water jet, and I'm not trying to spend someone else's money but if you don't progress you go spheroids up. The sequoia programmes and machinery was available not only for industry but was toted for home use more than twenty years ago.
Wonder how many realise the locations of some who do work , like yourself, for MHS? Not many years ago due to the lack of super communication speeds everything had to be done "In house" from a centralised location as the predecessors of MHS had to. Data transference and T'internet speeds has changed all that. Not only do you not have to physically take a copy of drawings to a "Cutter", the slowest part of the chain is getting the bits back from them, we haven't got to the "Beam them to me Scotty" point yet but the first part of the chain ie. draw and cut to those methods was available and I was using twenty years ago.
Regards Ian
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Ian, I'm beginning to find your comments just a little bit patronising. Jotika use routing as many of the cuts they make are partial to achieve rebates etc. and they found that laser cutting left unacceptable burn marks on the wood. If you have had the opportunity to read the recent Special for Model Boats which I edited there is a description of the way things have changed in the publishing of the magazine. I write regularly for Model Boats and act as editor of their website which involves some interesting conversions from MS Word to HTML in putting the articles on screen. None of this work involves physical contact with the people I work with, it is all done over the Web.
As someone who wrote and maintained a comprehensive networked computerised commitment accounting system system for managing major building contracts in a major county council which was successfully developed over 20 years I don't really need to be told how to suck eggs when workng in a digital environment. And that was actually only a relatively small proportion of my job.
The fifty or so articles I have had published over the last couple of years or so have included a number of visits to kit manufacturers using various computerised systems to 'work smart' so I am very much aware of how digital methods are applied to the manufacturing process and, perhaps more pertinently, the general commercial considerations that apply when bringing a kit to market.
Systems like Sequoia devolop over the years and I very much doubt that Jotika are using the early system you were familar with 20 years ago.
But as FLJ says, what do I know?
Colin
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After seeing two kits that where laser cut by different company's I would never buy one until they have improved dramatically , the charred edge makes adhesion very difficult,also the dark ring on the face makes some finishes imposable, some of the best kits about are cut by router, Martin Howe & Baylis and I have never heard a complaint about them (except price) .
Peter
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Peter,
That is exactly the point Jotika made to me.
Colin
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Sorry you feel that way Colin, that was not the intention in any way, but just as you have had to be led by new tech. so have I, but many may not have had the insight into manufacturing methods and to inferr just how difficult it would be is rather dismissive. We chose to differ on this point but that doesn't make my opinions irrelevant and despite that you feel I'm trying to teach you to suck eggs, drawing pictures formed a major part of my working life and having them converted into finished objects likewise. The means are available, the fact Jokita don't want to do it is fine but lets be under no misapprehensions that it would take years and cost a mint.
Regards Ian.
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I don't think I suggested it would take years and cost a mint. As you say, Aerokits are pretty simple compared with other kits on the market. Jotika obviously don't feel that they are a commercial proposition at the moment compared with the other irons they have in the fire. Whether they could be successfully reintroduced on a franchise basis with the franchisee bearing the risk is an interesting thought though. As DG says, the Crash Tender would definitely be the best place to start.
But overall, I think the market would actually be quite small in reality and once all of us 50/60 somethings who wanted one had bought one then the demand would fall right away. I enjoyed building my Patrol Boat at the time but if I was in the market for a kit now I wouldn't give it a second look.
Colin
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You guys just wait. I think you may have a shock coming to you. Slight tingeing to the edge of laser cut , so what? It doesn't affect proper glues and it doesn't show. You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
Funny how model boaters seem on the whole to put up objections to things they don't want or don't like without any knowledge of where they may be helped or where product CAN be done cheaply as Circlip says.
You all think you know about copyright. You all know CAD production. In actual fact there are more ways to skin a cat in both worlds than most of you think.
Just wait and see!
That's it from me till much later ;)
Vintagent
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I seem to remember that someone a couple of years ago brought out a limited production and improved version of the Fireboat, This I'm sure got coverage in either MB or MMI, I was seriously thinking about getting one but could not justify the cost.
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You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
No, but you would varnish the veneered faced variety that Jotika use for their Nelson's Navy range which isn't intended to be painted. Horses for courses I think.
Colin
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You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
Vintagent
why not most of the models in the aerokits range had ply decks and they where varnished with Indian ink lines.so are we not talking about aerokits now ? or havent you ever built one ?
Peter
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Redesign the kits for modern production and the copyright's out of the window. Call them Airokits instead of Aerokits and the copyrights up the Swanney.
BTW, you can copy a VW Golf to the last detail AND sell it. But you can't call it a VW or have TDi on the back.
Vintagent,
Looks like you have been there and done that.
Very, Very good point and to illustrate there are several "Oriental Suppliers" who sell model DMW's car kits which look exactly like a BMW kit for a fraction of the cost, as well as others. Bought one for my son
Also the argument about high cost etc is invalid as it only relative to a particular manufacturer and not really applicable as to why they are not being produced.
In other words Jotika cannot afford to do so as perhaps their overheads and operating costs are too high, whereas a "Cottage" producer could.[/color]
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Forget Glass Toes, we're talking tree wood.
I know we are talking 'tree wood'... that was to illustrate how much development time (and money) would go in to producing 'something' from scratch and bring it to the marketplace... just to have someone 'rip it off' without a second thought.. and make a profit from someone else's hard work..
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As an outsider looking in I see inherent problems with this discussion.
Firstly, there is a combined discussion about apples (plans) and oranges (kits). And there is a tendency to 'flip-flop' between the two when trying to make points, to support the argument.
Secondly, as pointed out by RAG, there is a big difference between running a company with overheads (premises and employees), and cottage industries (or paying hobby) where you are producing in an ad hoc manner or even knocking off other people's products.
In reality though, if you want to run a cottage industry legitimately you do need to consider overheads, and at some stage you will be big enough to have to pay tax and VAT, accountant and maybe employees. These would bump up your production costs, even as a cottage industry.
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there may be another reason why Jotica have not gone any further with the range and that is they may not sell.the sea Queen was not a massive seller, and the number of the kits that show up on ebay at regular intervals unstated or partly built must say something . there are always some of the old kits cumming up unstated I got one not Long ago, I think some people buy them and open the box and close it again, also I think model boats have moved on with ready made hulls (that are the correct shape) and plastics that take paint well and can be worked easily. so is there a need for these kits on a commercial basis and would they sell
Peter
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there may be another reason why Jotika have not gone any further with the range and that is they may not sell.
Exactly what Colin Bishop said in an earlier post.
Peter.
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Firstly, there is a combined discussion about apples (plans) and oranges (kits). And there is a tendency to 'flip-flop' between the two when trying to make points, to support the argument....
As a fully signed-up member of Richard Stallman's fan club, I believe that information ought to be free. So, for instance, Shakespeare's words are free to humanity. But if I went to see a play being performed, I would expect to pay. For the acting and the theatre, but not the words...
Similarly, beyond a short period of copyright (and Stallman would cut this to zero) I would expect to pay for a kit of parts, but not the concepts embodied in the plans...
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So DG, if you sweated blood writing your first novel and it was eventually published with all the hassle that that entails and actually sold well then you would be quite happy for somebody else to come along and make a cheap print of it, steal all your sales and deprive you of your hard earned royalties.
Just out of interest, what are your views on ripping off music over the Net - maybe not the same as the artistes I would guess?
Colin
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You guys just wait. I think you may have a shock coming to you. Slight tingeing to the edge of laser cut , so what? It doesn't affect proper glues and it doesn't show. You wouldn't varnish bare ply would you?
Funny how model boaters seem on the whole to put up objections to things they don't want or don't like without any knowledge of where they may be helped or where product CAN be done cheaply as Circlip says.
You all think you know about copyright. You all know CAD production. In actual fact there are more ways to skin a cat in both worlds than most of you think.
Just wait and see!
That's it from me till much later ;)
Vintagent
Well it looks like you can enlighten us all, seems to be what is intended.
Sounds like you are going to produce a kit yourself.
If you are so good why dont you go and actually produce one not rip off others work.
Oh yes that would mean you would have to actually work at it.
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Obviously we have got a little off track and onto copyright in general <:(
Who owns The Boat Plan? %)
Obviously not the drawer because they did not build/draw the "first" boat/plan, so to apply some of the illogical logic commentary it is ripped off. :police:
The comment that there is copyright for the kit contents may have some merit, {:-{ same as trade marks have copyrights but as mentioned earlier there is no copyright on cars but on brands/trademarks etc.
As for Music there is no copyright infringement copying music it is "What you do with it" that may create a problem. :embarrassed: Same with books you can copy them, but for what? O0
In any case to prosecute an offence you have to prove the intent :kiss: :police:
Commonsense prevails (well it should) and all your own work, when push comes to shove may not be your own work and indeed may not be original, for instance influenced by training, education, what you observed, ie other boats, but you may be entitled to some degree of intellectual property rights.
Think this thread can go on "add nauseam". <:( 8)
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So DG, if you sweated blood writing your first novel and it was eventually published with all the hassle that that entails and actually sold well then you would be quite happy for somebody else to come along and make a cheap print of it, steal all your sales and deprive you of your hard earned royalties.
Just out of interest, what are your views on ripping off music over the Net - maybe not the same as the artistes I would guess?
Colin
I am 'sweating blood' writing a web site, designing boats and publishing the drawings. It's free. I believe in selling objects, not information. If someone wants to sell my designs he will have to compete with their availability for free - if he wants to sell a loose-leaf folder with pretty prints of my plans in, and charge people for the loose-leaf folder and printing - that's fine by me. They're not very good anyway....
This subject of copyright and philosophy of copywrong or copyleft is complex, and not really one we can cover completely in this thread. I assume from your comments that you are not familiar with Richard Stallman's approach to this topic? As a good example the FSF have published a book of his essays, which, of course, blood has been sweated over, etc...
You can buy it for $25. If you want just want the ideas in in, rather than owning the hard copy, you can download the complete book in pdf form from the same site. For free. And that business model is working....
http://shop.fsf.org/product/free-software-free-society/ refers
Oh, and quite a lot of artistes are very happy with having their music downloaded for free. It encourages people to attend their gigs. The people who aren't happy are the music publishing companies. A direct connection between artists and their public makes their whole business model of screwing the music producers and music consumers at the same time somewhat redundant...
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Think this thread can go on "add nauseam". <:( 8)
It already is :((
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I appreciate that the subject is a complex one and a lot turns on the individual circumstances. But if I write an article for a magazine then I expect to be paid for it, there is no physical object, just a digital file. I composed and wrote the words, I took the photos (or obtained permission to use them). I'd be a bit upset if the publisher turned around and said 'thanks for the information, but it's us that sells the object, so we'll take the money.'
I think that one area where the line can be drawn is if you 'steal' someone's ideas or work and profit from that at their expense - in our hobby rip off GRP hulls would be a typical example.
No, I've never heard of Richard Stallman, I simply take the view that if you have created something then you have the right to do as you wish with it, sell it or give it away. Of course, if you have made a ground breaking discovery that will benefit the human condition then you probably have a moral duty to share it on whatever terms appear to be reasonable in the circumstances and most people will understand that.
There is plenty of evidence for altruism on this forum where we freely share our knowledge and techniques to help each other with no thought of reward and frequently at some expense to ourselves.
Colin
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I appreciate that the subject is a complex one and a lot turns on the individual circumstances.
In this case my position is based on principle rather than circumstance....
No, I've never heard of Richard Stallman,
In that case we will have difficulty discussing a lot of the principles. Briefly, he believes that trading in ideas can be deeply destructive of human society. Trading in ideas has gone hand-in-hand with objects for so long that it takes an effort to appreciate the difference, and it has only become apparent with the rise of the web, which provides a carrier for the free transfer of ideas and information. The press and the entertainment industry are feeling the first bit of pressure at the moment - it is likely to become an unstoppable torrent everywhere. Legal and technical attempts are being made to stem the pressure - these have continually failed in the past, are becoming ever more draconian, and still do not look likely to succeed in the future, unless everyone's brains can somehow be controlled. The technical attempts have already damaged software development badly, for no gain.
Stallman reckons that business models and commercial activity can flourish in a new world of much freer information exchange, but that current businesses will need to adapt and understand just what it is that they are selling. He sees attempts to hold back the tide as misguided and doomed to failure - akin to the buggy-whip manufacturers who complained that they would be put out of business by the arrival of the motor car, and lobbied for its abolition...
As I said, this field is complex, and little to do with model boats! Please do not develop this thread by asking for examples - look at some of the extensive literature in the field. It is a big subject, all of your initial questions are bound to be answered somewhere....
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I also think this thread has run its course
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Bob