Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: Nordlys on August 30, 2012, 05:33:09 pm
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Hello all repair experts (I hope)(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/FireboatdamageAug2012001.jpg)
My beloved first boat -Fireboat - is starting to come apart at the seams(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/FireboatdamageAug2012004.jpg)(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/FireboatdamageAug2012002.jpg)[IMG]
after sailing over the summer.
I hope the pictures show the damage clear enough.
How do I go about sorting out this deterioration in the seams / joints?
I have neglected to pay attention to routine maintenance so it seems.
Any advice would be most welcome and helpful.
Nordlys
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Hi Nordlys
Can you recall what type of ply the hull was built from.If it was interior grade ply best thing would be to glue the laminations back together with water resistant PVA and clamp until dry.It seams to be delaminating where the paint has been chipped ,best to repaint once repaired.
I would be very reluctant to wet it again if its interior or poor quality exterior,would be better to repair and display only..
How about covering the outside with fibreglass tissue,sand smooth and then repaint.
Hope this is of some use to you.
Mickyrubble
:-)) :-)) :-))
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It would mean quite a bit of work, but if you wanted to continue to use the boat, you could cut back the paint, get some epoxy resin and very thin cloth, and cover the hull in that. It will outlast you then!
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(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboat9-3-11007.jpg)
This is the boat in better times -not perfect, just better.!
I don't know what type of ply the boat was constructed from - I haven't owned it from day one
but it was my first dabble in to model boating.
I would like to have it available to run rather than just as a display model but you may be right to suggest
doing just that. I have noticed two or three of my boats with delaminating ply.
Some are easier to fix but this looks like i need to work on most if not all of the hull
to be sure to get her watertight again.
Yes, resin and thin glass paper looks a likely solution but I don't want to change the hull
profile to much.
Many thanks....
Nordlys.
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I think you need to find out why it is coming apart. Is water getting in due to impact damage? If so then cleaning out the crack, letting it dry out and then running in some thin epoxy or Super Phatic glue followed by some car body filler and then repainting will sort it out.
Have you let water lie in the hull after using the boat so that it has soaked in from the inside? Again, make sure it is fully dried out and then give it a coat of resin, plyester, epoxy or Ezecote all over the inside of the hull to waterproof it.
Hulls don't come apart for no reason. If you can work out why then you are half way towards a solution.
Colin
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Hi,
Water is entering through the delaminations via the outside
due to aged paintwork which has left parts of the hull exposed that I
hadn't noticed.
I've probably sailed the boat 3-4 times without noticing the underside paint wearing a bit thin.
There has been no impact - it is just a gradual deterioration of the outer paintwork. Plenty
of water taken on this last sailing (not a flood) drying out now while I enquire how to proceed.
Certainly no problem coating the inside of the hull - its the outside that I would like to apply
my best efforts.
Thank you
Nordlys...
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One way to repair this fairly easily is to use a dremel with a roughing out bit or even a router bit in it,after you have done this fill it with 2 part epoxy personally I Zap epoxy please don't use araldite.Rub this down and use filler if necc to get the hull profile to the correct shape and simply repaint,I have had this on a couple of S/H wooden boats in the past and have used this method successfully.If you was to totally re tissue the hull it will become a major job.After you have repaired the hull I would personally strip all the electrics out of the hull and get some grp resin form halfords or similar mix the resin and simply pour into the hull obviously turning it so the resin can get everywhere to waterproof it completely.As others have allready stated make sure the hull has been fully dried out before attempting the repair
Dave
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Hello Dave, Yes I will be leaving the hull to dry out thoroughly now then I think I'll
attempt local repairs after removing some material (carefully) as you suggest rather
than treating the entire outer hull.
I need, of course, to stop the water getting in as a priority.
Was that 'Zap Epoxy' that you are using?
I have plenty of Halfords resin. (At the moment)!
Thanks...
Nordlys.
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yes Zap epoxy I simply can not fault it
Dave
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I notice that the Zap Epoxys come in 5 - 15 & 30 minute and
Finishing Resin.
Is the finishing resin the one to use?
Didn't realise there were so many types.
Nordlys....
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I'd say go for the 30 min... the slower setting resins give a stronger bond
Finishing resin is for skimming over the entire hull
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I've decided to lay a narrow length of fibreglass blanket down each side of the hull
where the ply join is separating and a length down the centre over the keel
and cover with resin.
This should prevent any chance of a leak through the joins at least.
I will cover any flaws and hollows with P38 - usually does the trick.
Drying out nicely now in the afternoon sun
I can post more photos as I go if anyone is interested -I'm grateful for all
the suggestions - so helpful to get a confirmation of an idea.
Nordlys.
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Looking at the picture of you Hull, as you can see the original nails, would it not be better to strip all the paint away , sand , seal and then light glass cloth or such ? and then also run the resin inside the boat as well.
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Yes, that is what I have in mind to do. I will strip away most of the paint in immediate areas
then continue with the process.
What kind of 'seal' would you use or have in mind?
The 'light glass cloth' I thought of using comes from Halfords - do you
know the type? Light enough?
And end up coating inside with a layer of resin.
Nordlys.
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I would have probably just used sanding sealer or just dope, however for ply they may not be the best..
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I will strip away most of the paint in immediate areas.
What kind of 'seal' would you use or have in mind?
The 'light glass cloth' I thought of using comes from Halfords - do you
know the type? Light enough?
And end up coating inside with a layer of resin.
Nordlys.
Hi Nordlys,
This is what I call light cloth:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10903
I can't get that at the local Halfords, they only carry polyester and non woven glass, the stuff to repair car bodies, unsuitable for your purpose.
"Most of the paint" will only work if the structure of the wood is visable, as epoxy doesn't bond well with paint.
I'd repair the cracks with 24h epoxy resin, sand the repaired spots back into shape and cover the entire hull with glasscloth end 24h epoxy resin.
Don't attempt to glass a hull with the 30 minute stuff, that's how long it'll take to set completely, the 24h epoxy gives you that long to work with it...
I have recently covered my 110 cm wooden M.A.S. with glasscloth and epoxy; as the edges needed to stay sharp (glasscloth can't be forced around a tight radius anyway, not without vacuumbagging that is), I worked each flat(ish) surface separately, leaving a small overlap:
(http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/members/pompebled-albums-motoscafo-anti-sommergibile-picture87697-glass-epoxy01.jpg)
As you can see the structure of the glasscloth is still visible after the first layer.
Once cured, the cloth is cut with a sharp knife and sanded flush with the adjacing surface, which is covered next with glasscloth and epoxy.
This leaves you with a hull with razorsharp edges:
(http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/members/pompebled-albums-motoscafo-anti-sommergibile-picture87698-glass-epoxy-02.jpg)
When all surfaces have been covered in (at least one) glasscloth, adding two more layers of epoxy resin will fill the weave, smoothening the surface, no filler needed:
(http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/members/pompebled-albums-motoscafo-anti-sommergibile-picture88073-glass-epoxy-03.jpg)
I sanded through the glasscloth on several spots, so these had to be re-done:
(http://www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/members/pompebled-albums-motoscafo-anti-sommergibile-picture88074-glass-epoxy-04.jpg)
After light sanding and a few coats of epoxy, the hull is smooth all over.
If you work with 24h epoxy and you have the time to add another layer within 24h, you won't have to sand and degrease between layers, as you'll have sufficient chemical bonding.
Letting the epoxy cure in a warm surrounding allows you to add more layers in a shorter time, I managed three surfaces in a day, the entire hull took five days.
Regards, Jan.
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Hello Jan,
Thats very interesting and detailed - thanks.
Can you recall the weight/grade of cloth in your photo -would it be
48g as shown in the photo on the website you sent?
They dont look quite the same texture?
Would a 400g cloth be useable -found some on Ebay.
Thanks
Nordlys
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No 400gram will be very heavy. 48g cloth is very thin- almost like tissue. HK go thinner still, for very lightweight reinforcement, but the 48gram cloth will work well. Thicker cloth uses more resin, is harder to fill and will add quite a bit of weight. All you need is thin coat to keep the damp out, the strength is already in the hull from the wood. With a thin layer of glass and epoxy, you will have a composite construction which will be incredibly tough.
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Ah!
Thank you, thats very helpful info. There are plenty of weights to choose from on
ebay around the 50- 100g weight.
It is, as you say primarily to keep the damp out after all.
HK prices all in $ currency -are they not out of UK?
Thank you
Nordlys
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I have found a glass cloth of 110g weight -would that be about right?
Combined with 24hr epoxy resin - as recommended - hopefully job done!
Thanks
Nordlys
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Another one to think about in this application. I've used Nylon or Silk. Providing you've stripped all the paint off the hull (Which is a necessity) before coating, wet out the material and treat as you would glass cloth. Paint the hull with Epoxy, lay on the cloth and use a dead credit card or similar to squeegee excess resin.
Regards Ian.
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As Ian has said, you can use this cloth.
http://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/pages/clothsandresins.htm
the 0.6oz cloth is good for this, we have used it (Red and myself) on fire boats and a huntsman 28 you will have to remove all paint first though look at red181 new fire boat thread I thing he about to show how he did it.
peter
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Thanks for both posts.
I'll look for a lighter cloth!
Then commence paint stripping.
But I can't find that thread for Red181?
Nordlys..
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Hi Peter,
Do you know if the Eze-Kote resin is anything like or similar in
effectiveness to the Halfords resin.
(Only I have loads of the Halfords and Eze-Kote seems pretty expensive)?
Thanks,
Nordlys.
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Jan, Longbuild - can you tell me the name of the 24hr Epoxy resin please.
Would it be Zap by any chance?
That seems to be available at my local model shop.
Somehow didn't think Eze-Kote was quite the right stuff? Am I wrong here?
Nordlys
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The type of resin you're after is "Wing Skinning" type and is as thin as water. "Laminating" resins are thicker. If you go back to Peters (HS93) post, the one he shows, "Aeropoxy" is ideal.
Regards Ian.
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Yes, thanks Ian, I have it now.
Fortunately my local model shop does stock this, so if you think its ideal
and not too thin then I'll give it a go.
Many thanks.
N....
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(http://h[IMG]http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12004.jpg)ttp://i118(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12002.jpg)2.pho(http://i[IMG]http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12007.jpg)1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12001.jpg[/IMG]
I have now stripped my Fireboat, and found the weak points where it had let in water.
Actually most of the hull does look in reasonable condition considering that the boat is at least 40yrs old.
I have applied 3 coats of sanding sealer in readiness for the glass fibre cloth and resin which will
be going on tomorrow. The cloth is 48g weight and the resin is Z Poxy 24hr finishing resin.
I have included a photo of the cloth which is quite thin and fine. Have tested it on a piece of ply
and it does go on very easily with a fine, smooth finish once dry.
Nordlys...
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[IM(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12001.jpg)G]http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12007.jpg[/IMG]
These 2 photos got left behind somehow.
Nordlys....
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(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/Fireboatstrippedsanded6-9-12007.jpg)
Ok last chance for the glass cloth pic.
N...
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Before you go any further Nordlys, the chine stringer needs to come off, 2 reasons, it will be difficult to get the cloth round it, but more importantly, it's fitted in the wrong place.
Regards Ian.
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Really? Can you enlarge on that please?
Not hard to remove but where does it belong?
I hadn't paid any attention to that at all......
Nordlys...
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Morning.
Ok, I see now where the stringer should be - how odd that I hadn't noticed this before.
I wasn't actually thinking of fibre glassing on the sides of the boat, just on the
underside of the hull, rightly or wrongly.
I am wondering whether the slender modelling pins (brass) that I use will be strong enough to
penetrate thru' the glass fibre & cloth?
I would be interested if anyone can tell me of a supplier for these modelling pins ie. the preferred type.
Nordlys.....
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I have got as far as laying on the first layer of glass cloth and resin. Easy enough to
apply but have to say that it's looking a bit rippley right now -I think I'm loosing what was a decent
flat plywood surface and now have this uneven surface which I hope rubs down into something
reasonable!
At least it will be watertight with some strength.
A lengthy process with this 24hr poxy resin.
Nordlys.....
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On the opposite side I seem to have achieved a better finish by
following Pompebled method from an earlier post (I believe).
I just applied a layer of resin to the hull and layed the glass cloth on,
smoothed it into place but did not add any further resin to the cloth.
No runs or ripples so far.
Hope this may be of some interest to anyone attempting to fibre glass hull
for the first time. Techniq
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Didn't try pulling the resin through the cloth with a squeegee then? (post #20). Idea is to get the cloth as close to the wood skin as possible.
Regards Ian
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Yes, did that with a thinnish piece of plastic card as you suggested. For some reason had
more success on 2nd side than 1st.
Will have to work the 1st side more extensively to smooth out the ripples.
Would you put on more than one layer?
Bit of a learning curve for me.
Thanks for your help tho'.
Nordlys...
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No more than 1 layer of cloth.
Regards Ian.
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If you're getting ripples, you're doing things wrong- it should go on absolutely flat, and only the slight weave of the cloth should need to be filed with resin to get a perfect smooth finish. The answer is- always practice on something non-critical before committing to a model that is valuable to you.
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I was going to post a couple of pictures of the progress
I have made with fibre glassing the hull of my fireboat but I can't upload to photobucket
Keeps saying 'error in upload'.
3 times I've tried but it won't have it? Im following same procedure as I always have,
so thats it for me!
Nordlys///.....///
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Just found out - its a Photobucket error which they say they
are working on.
Ahh. Patience I lack......
Nordlys
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Photobucket now up again. So here are a few pictures of the progress
made on fibreglassing my fireboat hull.
Two coats of Halfords red primer and three coats of
Halfords Vauvhall Burgundy Gloss now drying in the sun.
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/HullRe-Paint15-9-12004.jpg)
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/HullRe-Paint15-9-12003.jpg)
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/SeaScout1/HullRe-Paint15-9-12001.jpg)
I wonder what all you experts think of the finish?, one side is slightly better than the other- thats
my learning curve.
The final colour Burgundy is a bit different to the bright red on most Fireboats? I think
it will look ok once the sides are painted black with a white waterline.
Yes?
Nordlys
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Lovely colour.
Perhaps Stavros can advise on the ripples. I should imagine there's still time for a bit of sanding and an application of very fine filler.
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use filler primer then flat with wet and dry starting with about 800 and work your way to the finer grades always using a block on the flat serfises should get it as smooth as :-))
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Can you give the paint code for that burgundy paint?
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If you have some resin left, you could mix it with some micro balloons to make a tough, waterproof but easy to sand filler.
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The paint is a Halfords spray Vauxhall Burgundy Red and
a code that I have found from their website says:
Compatible to Vauxhall manufacturers code 78L, 567
Nothing else on the can.....
Nordlys...
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Getting rid of the ripples is going to mean going through the glasscloth.
Regards Ian.
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Right.
With the boat in front of me the finish is actually not too bad, yes there are a few
ripples and a few humps after the fibre glassing work. I thought I had
rubbed it all down to very smooth surface, but the finish paint coat
does enhance the few flaws.
I doubt if I would go as far as sanding down through the cloth now though.
I'll just have to live with this finish, it's underwater mostly!
It has been an interesting lesson in finishing for me and I hope the thread hasn't been
a bore for all the experts on this site who have offered some very useful techniques.
I'm a bit lost with the use of micro balloons -(subculture)?
Nordlys...
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Microballoons are a filler made up of tiny glass spheres. You mix them with the resin, and they bulk it out, making it lighter and easier to sand, also reduce shrinkage which is very low with epoxy resin anyway.
You can use microballons with polyester resin and even cyano glues, so they have lots of uses. Colloidal silica is another filler you can add, which is a little easier to sand.
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Yes Ken I will advise as regards the ripples on the hull,What Nordlys should have really done was to have taken the advise given in the paining section and if the hull would have been filled with the filler I advised the hull would have been as smooth as a baby,s derriere so to speak,and is so easy fixable even now.
This is what I would do to get a smooth hull.
Rub down the Hull with 80 grit paper DRY to achieve a good key
Fill the hull end to end and rub down yet again with 80 grit using a RUBBER block having first coated the hull with Matt Black so you can see the indentations,fill and rub down till all the black guide coat dissapear.
Give the hull a THIN coat of filler and rub down with 80 grit firstly and then change to 180 both papers used DRY and defiantly NOT wet.
Apply 3 coats of filler primer and rub down with 500 grit paper and use DRY
When rubbing ANY hull down to paint it is of PARAMOUNT importance to do this DRY as WET rubbing WILL allow water to be drawn into the primer and also any parts of the hull that has bare wood IRRELEVANT if sanding sealer has been use of it has been coated with resin,as it is practically impossible to guarantee a 100% coverage of resin as it will be of varying thicknesses on the hull and also it can be porous as well.
This is WHY I ALLWAYS advise DRY rubbing,it is something that has BEEN proven in the motor trade as it will in time cause Micro blistering which in fact is caused by moisture.Yes there are members on here which will say WELL IT WORKS FOR ME But I personally know and a few of you on here will also agree that what I say is perfectly true as you are in the motor trade yourselves.
Dave
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Did I miss a posting from you Stavros? Must admit I didn't refer to any posts
in other sections of forum.
However, yes all my work on the hull was done 'dry' before and after glassing.
I think basically the finish I acheived seemed to be pretty good prior to the finish
coat of gloss colour - then the imperfections became a bit more noticeable
Thats where I am now after quite a bit of work on the hull this last week!
I've lost the will to strip it down again.......
Your advice is noted though...thanks.
Nordlys....
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I've lost the will to strip it down again.......
Your advice is noted though...thanks.
Nordlys....
[/quote]
I think that will not be necessary,
Stavros' clear, step by step instructions, are how to "finish/rectify" your hull.
At the end of the day it is your call.
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I have applied 3 coats of sanding sealer in readiness for the glass fibre cloth and resin which will
be going on tomorrow.
Nordlys...
Hi Nordlys,
I haven't followed your work on the hull closely, or I would have reacted sooner, but I think that the sanding sealer may have been (part of) the reason the glasscloth didn't go on the hull without wrinkles.
Granted, for a first attempt, you did well.
I always put the glasscloth on the bare hull, no sanding sealer or whatever, just a light coat of epoxy resin, of which most is absorbed by the wood (acting as a sanding sealer, correct), but as it's epoxy, when adding the glasscloth, or a second layer within 24h, you have the benefit of the chemical bond between the two layers.
I'm not sure the epoxy will have adhered to the sanding sealer just as vigorously, leaving room for imperfections in the layer...
Nice red by the way!
Regards, Jan.
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Thanks Jan, I ended up rubbing down most of the paint finish, black and Burgundy, as I had
encountered a complete mess with the white waterline!
I endeavoured to follow Stavros method and have been filling and rubbing down
to get that flat surface.
It is coming.
I am waiting for some fine filler to arrive so I can finish off completely.
Funnily enough, I'm now glad that I am tackling the wrinkly finish.
The colour is not the usual bright red but it will look good I think with the Black and Greys
of the deck and cabins.
Thanks for your method description, it will be used again shortly, I've had 5 boats
leak through this summer!
N...