Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: Colin Bishop on November 24, 2022, 06:14:45 pm
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Just a heads up to the discussion on the Model Boats Website about the future of model boating. Lots of interesting points being made and probably worth a look.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=184063&p=1
Colin
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I don't know if anyone has investigated this, but a few things that younger (even the very young) are interested in could be combined/integrated into a model boat.
Robitics, Rasberrypi/Arduino, and drones. Before anyone mentions costs, the amount some kids (or their parents) spend on drones, tablets and apps is not small.
In the same wat that people move from model aircraft to model boats (stress, crash costs, etc.), people could start to move from flying drone racing (with FPV) to drone boat racing with FPV.
I also see a lot of Sim APPs for phones based on transport, truck driving, truck parking. Perhaps modifiying Springer Tugs (a very cheap platform)
to drones and have course running competitions, and parking/manouvering loads. Or for the real adrenaline junkies, making drones of Club 500 boats.
If you look at the popularity of robots, a lot of the attraction is in the design and build, and the programming etc. Water would also provide new challenges for roboteers.
Just some thoughts.
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The decline in the hobby is not exclusive to model boating, any hobby which requires a practical skill set is facing severe challenges in maintaining healthy engagement.
I think a lot is down to a break in the skills set, brought about partially by a decline in industry, changes in the education system to reflect that industrial shift and changes in culture/tastes.
At some point there was a break in the transfer of skills and knowledge on how to make and fix things, and I think that break came in the 1980's. Fast forward forty years or so, and it's hardly surprising numbers are falling.
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Some thoughts on this from a young ish (mid 30s) boater: whilst model boating does seem to be less popular, I think we have recently seen more interesting in practical engineering skills from younger people - being a 'maker' as they say seems to be cool again.
Many of these new hobbies seem to relate current technology - eg. Drones, planes, 3D printing. Computer programming seems natural to my undergraduate students - and having tried it, the problem solving skills seem to have a lot in common with 'real world' building. Also check out many YouTube channels dedicated to model making - eg. Tom Stanton's inventions (drone helicopter controlled only by altering the rotational speed of a motor during each revolution - genius!).
Ship modelling in general faces the problem that ships are the most complicated things to build so take the most time investment, compare this to plastic tanks, planes and Warhammer which might be assembled in a few evenings or weekends.
So maybe practical hobbies are alive and well, but are influenced by current trends in engineering?
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It would be interesting if the likes of Tamiya produced RC boats as well as vehicles. Unlikely I know, but one of the attractions of their models is that they are just assembly rather than a lengthy build from materials like timber which requires certain skills to be developed. This assembly consists of many technical parts which many enjoy putting together. Model boat builders also enjoy building them and I've been building one as well.
Helicopters and drones also contain a lot of technical parts requiring assembly and as said are still being developed which adds to the interest.
Conversely most model boats don't contain many technical parts and only make up a small part of what can be a lengthy build. 3D printing may go some way towards addressing this but we then still have the problem of limited access to suitable water.
So yes, I'm sure that the younger generation are still interested in building mechanical/electronic models etc., including cars and aircraft/drones but just not boats.
I'm guessing that boats were popular many years ago because they were seen as a safer bet in the days before decent RC? I built a plane when I was young but was frightened of flying it as it was free flying and I didn't fancy control line planes. No chance of RC vehicles of course.
All that has now changed and radio equipment now allows sophisticated control of vehicles and aircraft which has allowed them to develop at the expense of boats.
Chris
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Conversely most model boats don't contain many technical parts and only make up a small part of what can be a lengthy build. 3D printing may go some way towards addressing this but we then still have the problem of limited access to suitable water.[/size]So yes, I'm sure that the younger generation are still interested in building mechanical/electronic models etc., including cars and aircraft/drones but just not boats.
Exactly. I have had such requests from several CNC hobbyists, and am trying to address them by putting up 'virtual kit pages', where you can download CNC cutting files (DXF format) AND 3-D printing files (STL format - all for free, so an entire boat kit and accessories can be created. Some example pages can be found at
http://eezebilt.tk/OSAkit.html (http://eezebilt.tk/OSAkit.html) or http://eezebilt.tk/Seakit.html (http://eezebilt.tk/Seakit.html)
These were initially intended for school CDT workshops, but more and more people are buying 3-D printers for personal use. If anyone knows a teacher looking for 3-d projects, perhaps they could draw their attention to the resource?
We still have the problem of easy access to ponds, though....
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It’s not just modelling that is seeing falling numbers. I am a member of a fishing club and a engineering club both can’t get younger members know matter we do to generate interest. It looks more and more that young people are just not interested in anything that doesn’t mean playing on their phones or computers.
The lack of skill based education in our schools is partly to blame. The lack of industry within the country another. But now it’s phones and computer games before model airfix kits.
Sad.
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Yes, the basic issue seems to be that for most people, leisure interests have shifted from 'Makers' to 'Consumers'. Instead of creating you buy!
Colin
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The 'entryway' for model boating isn't kids, it's getting the plastic kit boys on board. Building plastic kits is still a relatively popular hobby and is well represented on Youtube. It's the closest thing to building an RC boat in terms of skills, processes and outcomes. Children have always gone through ten different fancies a year and bored quickly.
It’s not just modelling that is seeing falling numbers. I am a member of a fishing club and a engineering club both can’t get younger members know matter we do to generate interest.
This is surprising, it MUST be a regional thing as fishing is still very popular over here, judging by license sales. Hunting has tapered off a bit recently though.
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One of the problems bringing children into the hobby is the greater demands placed on them by schoolwork. A friend's daughter has been getting homework since she was 5. I'm sure I enjoyed several years of freedom when I was that age! But, parents and government love lots of testing, and it's the school's job to prepare their charges for these. Even if they want to, I bet a lot of kids simply don't have time for hobbies that don't offer quick gratification.
I have seen some model engineering clubs bring in the younger members, but I've also talked to people in the target group who have been scared off by some of the members who don't want anyone under 70 to join...
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I don't think that it's just the skill side but also what is the reason for the need. Historically, models weren't just 3D images of the real article but also something original to be continuously developed, modified, engines built, tested and then either scrapped etc. or otherwise died, and this still happens, to an extent, with model planes and cars but not so much with boats. We focus on, in the main and I'm as guilty as anyone, somebody else's work. Some of this is down to regulations but a lot is down to which electronic module to replace so little or no long-term input and where's the fun in that? It's often now down to the "how much?" rather than the "how?" or "why?".
Ramble over....sorry {:-{
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One of the problems bringing children into the hobby is the greater demands placed on them by schoolwork. A friend's daughter has been getting homework since she was 5. I'm sure I enjoyed several years of freedom when I was that age! But, parents and government love lots of testing, and it's the school's job to prepare their charges for these. Even if they want to, I bet a lot of kids simply don't have time for hobbies that don't offer quick gratification..................
I went to a school where we had homework at 5 and where we were certainly tested and made aware of how well or badly we were doing. The objective was to pass the entrance exams to the junior school at age 7 and then to pass the entrance exam at age eleven to be allowed to progress to the secondary school. From age 7 we had weekly exams in both maths & english and the class results list was always published in results order. There was no hiding. From age 7 we also went to school 6 days a week which included Saturday. It was assumed that we would nearly all pass the 11 plus. This was the philosophy that got so many into the best universities at a time when there was real competition to get into university at all. Modelling was a release in the spare time that I made for it. I don't see that children today have it hard.
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And if you weren't working hard enough in secondary school the teachers used to hit you oR throw things like board rubbers at you.... (you could get the occasional slap in primary school too if you stepped out of line.)
We had a really vicious maths teacher, horrible man! I only found out over 50 years later that he had been held in a Japanese prisoner of war camp in WW2.
Colin
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Yes. From Primary school onward if you handed in poor homework or were naughty you got a detention which was 30 minutes after school and if you got 4 detentions you got caned.
I don't actually remember blackboard rubbers being thrown but I do remember plenty of detentions!
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Whilst a little off topic, both my children are well past school and university age but schools no longer give a class ranking - apparently its divisive and discriminatory!
We were told my daughter had made a 20% improvement over the term, okay sounds good until we saw her work compared to other class students on an open day. She was hopelessly behind as she had a problem. Okay once the school realised we weren't having a pop at them but we had been suspicious there was a problem they eased up and we were all able to apply corrective action to help her. They admitted virtually all parents were asking for the ranking system. It gives everyone a sound idea how a child is developing and if extra help is needed.
She did well in the end GSCE's A levels and University but none of that would have been possible if we hadn't dug to get to the truth.
Because schools are too full of PC nonsense they won't tell you how your child is actually doing relative to others so you have no real idea. Children get left behind and their education damaged because schools are too PC to tell the truth.
Unfortunately the real world isn't like that.
Okay rant over so back to the real topic.
We all agree that membership is down but as a child I had few toys so I made do, pretended or made them and skills with your hands was actively encouraged by schools and parents in those days, so I started making models.
I think the war wasn't such a distant memory so we were also encouraged to make model Spitfires and the like and to play with them. Today that encouragement just isn't there and to be fair its hard to compete when you can go on line and shoot down alien spacecraft and get street kudos for doing so.
In real terms the range and availability and cost of toys has improved tremendously so why make when you can buy?
There seems to be little social approval or perceived benefit in model making these days. I don't know what the solution is but in terms of shows I think multi discipline shows are the way to go as you get more footfall which justifies the increased costs but its not cheap to take a family of four to a show and that's a great put off for many but multi discipline can bring people in.
Cheers
Geoff
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Model boats no street cred can't, boast about having the latest one, almost never on Telly, a bit understandable really
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.......................They admitted virtually all parents were asking for the ranking system. It gives everyone a sound idea how a child is developing and if extra help is needed..................
Cheers
Geoff
They say they do but a significant minority of parents get very upset if told that their child isn't perfect. They want to believe that their child is perfect and that the school is failing them by not developing their full potential. They would never suggest that they could do more at home nor accept that their child is less able. There are other parents who really want to know & will do anything to help but every teacher knows about the problem group of parents with perfect children (in their opinion). :o
There is also the problem that what is average for one school catchment might not be average for others.
I guess street cred comes with visibility. the race car from the right manufacturer with the right advertising and promotion that can be seen by everyone on the road outside the house has more cred than the boat that you made yoursef and which has to be sailed a drive away. To have cred seems to be mainly about how much is spent rather than what has been achieved.
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Whilst I agree with the majority of posts regarding juniors joining the sport (I have an 11 year old Grandson who would much rather be on his phone or an ipad) Model Boat Clubs as a stand alone club are suffering from Council's lack of support in supplying suitable resources to Boat Club members.I live in Britain's "Ocean City" and we have been promised a new lake for almost 40 years. But apparently they have no money for that but they can build "Rusty Reg", a statue overlooking the sound for an undisclosed sum of money.Why would you spend money on a model when you have nowhere to sail it.However if you want to buy a skateboard you have a choice of about 5 different sites in the city, none of which are particularly well used., They would much rather use the City Centre and wreck all the edges on the walls and benches.
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No education system is perfect but I continue to think the ranking provides a guide. There are many factors involved but it does catch children who appear to be behind the norm so help can be provided. I agree there are some parents whose children are "perfect" and will bitterly contest anything that says they aren't, its always been like that.
There is no easy answer and if you ask 100 people you will probably get 100 different answers!
I agree council support is lacking for model boaters these days. I don't think it has enough visibility for councils to show they are being proactive and great!! Much easier to pay for some monstrous work of art - they seem terrified of being called fuddy-duddy. They should focus funds where they are needed and not on vanity projects.
Sadly without council support for the local ponds they will only go one way. In Southend they decided to repair the concrete banks so raised the edge by over a foot but kept the water level the same so now its very hard to get any models into the water. They also spent a lot on money to improve disabled access, which is fine and proper, so built a ledge over the water with a railing. Hmm not sure how that helps as no one can launch a model boat from there as the drop over the rail is about 3 feet!!
Cheers
Geoff
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Yes. From Primary school onward if you handed in poor homework or were naughty you got a detention which was 30 minutes after school and if you got 4 detentions you got caned.
I don't actually remember blackboard rubbers being thrown but I do remember plenty of detentions!
At junior school I was hit on the face with a ruler by a teacher during a school play for allegedly making a noise in the wings! At high school one of the technical drawing teachers used to twist your sideburns and the woodwork teacher threw pieces of timber at you and board rubbers! Fortunately the metalwork teacher didn't do anything! And they were good schools in a nice area.
And I married a teacher!
Chris
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I got the slipper for running in the corridor! I've also seen one teacher take it too far and punch a 13 year old boy off his chair (bad school). That should never have been permitted but the cane should be because it can act as a deterrent. However those days are long gone and 'little Johnny' mustn't be upset! And as for corporal punishment, never these days.
In my opinion most children can be controlled and chastised with a verbal telling off, detention and the like but some (in the minority) only seem to understand physical chastisement. Either way you need parental support as otherwise there is no real punishment.
There is a lot of talk about an exclusion policy being unfair - sometimes it probably is but they also need to consider the disruptive impact on other children's education. To quote Spok, 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few!'
Today we seem to live in a society where the needs of the few dictate how the majority must behave!
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Yes, I forgot, twisted sideburns really used to hurt! Did no real harm though!!
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We got twisted ears...
Colin
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Stories about schoolday punishments are all very interesting, but, just as has happened in the original Model Boats thread, we have drifted far from the original question. It almost seems as if no one really wants to address the issue.
The impression that I have is that modern children, though having many more pastimes than we had to attract their attention, are still open to creative hobbies which involve making things. The big problem is that they can make a car and drive it on any convienient bit of flat ground, but to sail a boat you need a pond or lake, and these have been extensively removed from public access. Clubs still have their own local lakes - often private or of limited access, but there are few places nowadays where a young kid can go and sail a pond yacht. Model flyers found this problem in the 1970s and 80s, and the SMAE did quite a lot of work with local government to ensure that the interests of model aircraft were considered in sport and recreational provision. I know of no any matching negotiations from any representative boating authorities - unless someone can correct me on this?
If we had moved earlier we might have been able to save some of the many boating pools in parks which were all filled in during the 1980s. And even now we may get some recognition for the few that remain. I think that if the hobby is to be revived then ensuring that provision for it is protected, and expanded if possible, should be an early agenda item...
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I agree council support is lacking for model boaters these days. I don't think it has enough visibility for councils to show they are being proactive and great!! Much easier to pay for some monstrous work of art - they seem terrified of being called fuddy-duddy. They should focus funds where they are needed and not on vanity projects.
Sadly without council support for the local ponds they will only go one way. In Southend they decided to repair the concrete banks so raised the edge by over a foot but kept the water level the same so now its very hard to get any models into the water. They also spent a lot on money to improve disabled access, which is fine and proper, so built a ledge over the water with a railing. Hmm not sure how that helps as no one can launch a model boat from there as the drop over the rail is about 3 feet!!
I think it depends upon your relationship with council officers, at Colwyn Bay we are allowed 7 day a week complete control of the park lake and even have "club member only" lakeside parking with members holding their own key to the bollard on the access road.
Licences to other organisers of events in the park require them not to interfere with our activities.
It all works on trust that we always work within our Licence conditions and are on first name terms with council staff at every level - it is harder to say no to Alan, than to say it to the club secretary.
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The days of 3D6s and XFY 34s, experimentation and failure are long gone, never to return, to be replaced by reliability and instant gratification. Accept and move on.
Regards Ian.
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... and instant gratification.
I guess that the people who go through the steep learning curves required for 3D printing and programming for microprocessors like arduino might disagree with the notion of instant gratification. Neither of which are plug and play, believe it or not.
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But you need specialist equipment/knowledge for those rather than a knife, saw, tube of glue and patience.
Regards Ian.
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Correct use of any tools requires specialist knowledge, which can be acquired either through experience or received wisdom.
The old school and the new school is accessible to all if they have sufficient motivation to want to to learn.
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A few years ago when i was doing an out of the normal pick up of one of the grandchildren from our local school (a co-educational secondary school and sixth form with academy status ) I took an interest in their craft workshop through the window. To my surprise it was a fully equipped classroom with walls fully racked out with complements of chisels ,gauges knives and power tools such a pillar drills a lathe and bench saw. I guess the equipment was for the 6th formers but I was honestly surprised . I had assumed that under the current H&S regimes nothing more dangerous than plastic tools would have been allowed. In my tool kit I still have a junior hacksaw which my son made when he was at this school
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This discussion is very interesting, along with its diversions but we all know which way the hobby is going.
The biggest obstacle as we have identified is the lack of suitable water. Even if there were folks willing to take up the challenge (but most of us quite rightly want a quiet life now and have other hobbies etc. as well) and approach the authorities it would be nigh on impossible to present a strong argument especially as the pond/lake would more than likely attract the undesirable element and cause problems.
Also many ponds would have to be provided across the country to have any effect. It just ain't going to happen.
I count myself lucky that I got into the hobby around 5 years ago at which arguably was a good time with modern radio equipment and brushless motors having become established with the prospect of a few years enjoying it whilst good suppliers are still around.
Chris
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Some thoughts on this from a young ish (mid 30s) boater: whilst model boating does seem to be less popular, I think we have recently seen more interesting in practical engineering skills from younger people - being a 'maker' as they say seems to be cool again.
I was just about to type this exact thing, that being a 'maker' seems to be a very current trend judging by the popularity and surge of related youtube channels. How much of this audience interest crosses the barrier from consuming youtube content to actually taking up a hobby I'm more skeptical about. And then a lot seems to be skewed towards CNC, 3D printing & drones.Model railways also seem to be having a bit of a resurgence, with new models, manufacturers, rocketing prices and TV shows.It's just down to chance that I got into model boating really, I was just about the right age for it to stick with me when my grandad was giving it a go, having previously tried rc cars, control line flying etc. Took a break while being a teenager, student & through my early career. Firstly due to it not being 'cool and latterly due to not having the time. Got back into it since 2020 and not looked back. My only problem now is managing the number of boats :}
Access to suitable water has been a pain, I've given up trying to go it alone on canals and just accepted that I need to drive a fair distance to the nearest club (Bury) however the welcome I've received has made it more than worthwhile.
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The MPBA as the recognised official body for powered model boating used to be quite active in lobbying for use of water for model boating but today's scale model boaters are no longer interested in competitive boating and long ago decided that the MPBA was of no use to them personally, whilst ignoring the bigger picture, so the Association now has too few members to carry any weight.
I have not been an active member for many years but still keep up my membership in general support of the hobby and for the insurance it brings.
Colin
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Colin
I have often wondered about insurance. It is relevant if we are discussing bringing in new modellers. This is particularly true as the MPBA insurance only covers those under 18 if accompanied by a parent or other adult with written authority and excludes model to model damage for everybody.
I can see that high speed or steam craft could give rise to a claim but what do you enisage our electric displacement models doing that could cause a claim?
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Yes, it's mainly aimed at high speed and steam but before 2.4Ghz TX aerials could be a hazard, hence a requirement for balls on the top by many event organisers. Another potential risk is people bending over scale models to admire the detail and getting impaled on a mast. In reality running scale models poses minimal risk but you never know what might appear out of left field in this litigious age. I think there was a case a while back when someone was field charging a LIPO and it cooked off causing some burns. LIPOs are found in quite a few scale models now.
As an aside, back in around 1975 or so the MPBA hosted the NAVIGA Scale Championships and one of the people judging a simulated naval shore assault had his jacket set on fire by a stray rocket. I saw it myself. Happy days!
Colin
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Candidly I really wouldn't be concerned about insurance unless you are into steam (danger very much over-rated) or very fast electrics which personally I think are extremely dangerous. If one hits a bank at high speed you have a projectile going towards people.
For most modellers the exposure is really minimal. Note the models themselves are not insured - insurance is only for third party claims/damage. I've never seen an accident in over 50 years of modelling that could result in an insurance claim.
The main concern is suitable water!
Okay now two "events" I have seen.....
- A very large and fat woman stumbled whilst pulling her dog out of the water and sat on a model pushing the superstructure into the keel!! Yes, really!!
- Six of us were bending over one of the Graupner ARTR models - Belfast which was balanced on a wall. No the model did not fall off the wall. This was daytime and there was a bang in the sky as a kid let off a rocket, so we continued our examination of the model when the rocket came down between out heads and hit Belfast smack amidships!! Almost impossible but it happened as mine was one of the heads!!
Cheers
Geoff
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Colin
I have often wondered about insurance. It is relevant if we are discussing bringing in new modellers. This is particularly true as the MPBA insurance only covers those under 18 if accompanied by a parent or other adult with written authority and excludes model to model damage for everybody.
Um. Not exactly.
The original thread was entitled "Encouraging the next generation of boaters". So we are talking about how to fertilise the ground so that more youngsters consider model boating as an attractive pastime. However, I see a lot of comments here about the difficulties of existing established modellers.
These are simply not applicable to children wondering about a new bath toy. They ARE applicable to new members of a club - but I am thinking about the steps before that - building the idea that a model boat might be better than getting another football or the latest Playmobil set...
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- Six of us were bending over one of the Graupner ARTR models - Belfast which was balanced on a wall. No the model did not fall off the wall. This was daytime and there was a bang in the sky as a kid let off a rocket, so we continued our examination of the model when the rocket came down between out heads and hit Belfast smack amidships!! Almost impossible but it happened as mine was one of the heads!!
I understand the BAe are looking for talented missile designers....
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I think there is a big question over visibility of the hoppy in the public eye and the lack of it is just not encouraging youngsters to get into the hobby. How we get higher visibility is more challenging. The public shared discipline shows are probably the best way to promote the hobby but also general sailing at our respective lakes.
Maybe as a club(s) we could always try to have a model that we can let the youngsters use and try to sail round a course. It would probably have to be moderate speed to give them the interest but not fast enough to cause any damage - rubber bow?
That way they could perhaps get some practical experience at zero cost to themselves. I'm sure a number of us do this ad hoc anyway - I certainly have with a destroyer. Curiously after about 15 mins sailing he just went round and round in circles and got bored to a degree. Its just not particularly exciting going up and down a lake.
Maybe some little challenges for the boat to do would catch their interest, go through hoops and the like and as always we should be friendly and encourage anyone we can.
It is difficult where most children are not allowed to even hold a knife and are perhaps not generally encouraged to start making things.
Cheers
Geoff
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I think there is a big question over visibility of the hoppy in the public eye and the lack of it is just not encouraging youngsters to get into the hobby. How we get higher visibility is more challenging. The public shared discipline shows are probably the best way to promote the hobby but also general sailing at our respective lakes.
I think that the key to getting more youngsters to think about model boating as a pastime lies outside of our hobby - if someone wants to join a club they are already interested, and we need to ensure that the next generation have the opportunity to start gettying interested.
So yes, sailing on public lakes is about the only way to attract attention from the general public - but there are far fewer of those than there used to be....
I am reminded of a model flyer - George Bushell - who used to campaign for the retention of flying fields in the 1970s. He pointed out to local councils that they had a statutory duty to provide for adequate recreation and sport in their area, that model flying was a sport, and that if they restricted access to it in one place they needed to provide suitable facilities in another, as required by central government directives.
I don't know if the same argument was used by model boating authorities at that time - I suspect not. And nowadays clubs only consider the maintenance of their own facilities. So I suspect that there is no one to chase local councilors and the like, to argue for the provision of ponds suitable for model boating in recreation areas, not connected with any particulkar club......
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Access to waters definitely tricky, my local water is the lido up at Bury, were model boaters have 7 day a week access as long as we respect the anglers. Unfortunately the anglers have become a lot more prevalent on the lake at all times of day and all days a week and with that have sadly come run ins where they believe they have run of the lake and feel it's acceptable to set up where you're running your models. I've been using the lake for 10 years and it's put me of, let alone some one starting out
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Always worth looking at local byelaws. Most councils seem to follow the standard guidelines, which really simply restricts the use of combustion powered craft. Steam and i.c. need designated areas, whereas electric and sail can be run on pretty much any body of water with public access.
Course I think some basic sense should prevail, probably ill advised to churn up the local duck pond with some 6S fast electric monster.
This is the guidance-
Model boats
37. No person shall operate a power-driven model boat on any waterway [except in a designated area for model boats].
“power-driven” means driven by the combustion of petrol vapour or other combustible substances
“waterway” means any river, lake, pool or other body of water and includes any fountain.
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37. No person shall operate a power-driven model boat on any waterway [except in a designated area for model boats].
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The point to make to the council would be that as model boating is a sport/recreation, they should be making provision for it, and if they have NO designated areas this effectively bans a sport which they are meant to be encouraging.
In my experience they will have two responses:
1 - model boats cause noise, safety issues and disruption, and we have nowhere suitable - to which a reply is that yachts and small electric boats do not, and it is their duty to find somewhere suitable....
2 - there is no demand - to which there is not much of a reply - beyond pointing out that without any facilities the sport cannot generate demand...
Which is why a concerted push by representatives of the sport would be so useful...
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I'm not sure one can comfortably call it a sport, but most definitely a hobby. Even yacht racing would be hard pushed to call it a sport?
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Which is why a concerted push by representatives of the sport would be so useful...
As mentioned previously, the MPBA are the recognised official body in the UK but scale model boaters have largely turned their back on it and are unable or unwilling to get involved in running the Association - so not much in the way of representatives unfortunately....
The MPBA used to be affiliated to the old Sports Council - now Sport England I think, but they are no longer listed. Model yachtsmen are arfilliated to Sport England via the Royal Yaching Association.
Colin
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I'm not sure one can comfortably call it a sport, but most definitely a hobby. Even yacht racing would be hard pushed to call it a sport?
It's just that councils would address it as a 'sport/recreation', so those are the words you would use when talking about it to them. I think that one issue is that we would get future generations of hobbyists from youngsters who see it as a 'recreation', while much of the formal representation for model boating sees it as a competitive sport. The provision of services for these two aspects would be different, of course.....
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I think that by around 2000 the MPBA recognised that the competitive element had largely gone out of RC scale model boating and actively encouraged the establishment of recreational social boating events. Sadly their initiatives were not supported by clubs or individuals who preferred to focus on local activities and saw no need for a national association. As I think someone has remarked, many recognised model boating waters were effectively taken over by angling societies who stepped into the vacuum where no local boating club was present to stake their claim. A classic case of use it or lose it.
Colin
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Would it be reasonable to say that the Future of Model boating lies in the hands of Grandads. They have disposable funds, Dad's and youngsters have very little.
This is now an expensive pastime, cars and planes even more so. Getting set up will cost serious money these days.
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Can be expensive or very cheap. R/C equipment, batteries and motors are fractions of the cost they used to be in real terms.
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The money goes elswhere. The latest must have iPhones are over £800. Even mid range phones are £500 and then there is the cost of computer games and the equipment to play them.
Youngsters have different priorities these days.
Colin
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I do agree with you. My model shop is selling hugely expensive models and rc equipment. Way beyond what I would be prepared to pay anyway.
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The money goes elswhere. The latest must have iPhones are over £800. Even mid range phones are £500 and then there is the cost of computer games and the equipment to play them.
Youngsters have different priorities these days.
Colin
No one's (well very few) are going out and dropping £800 or even £500 on a smart phone though. Maybe will be parents cast ofs and many will be on contract and paid monthly.
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There's a lot of things competing for your money these days and that's before all the recent increases. The little darlings are way too interested in the content of their phones and video gaming so I dare say that anything rc whether planes or boats is boring to them. One thing i've noticed is that certain hobby magazines like RCM&E and Model Boats are hard to find on the shelves these days. Still seems to be plenty of railway stuff though.
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I’m afraid that I don’t agree that model boating has to be expensive for beginners. Dodgy Geezer’s Ezebilt range is exactly that, plans are free and all you need is a bit of balsa and small motor & running gear.
http://eezebilt.tk/index.html
There is currently a Triton build log on the Model Boats website.
https://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=183653&p=1
Glynn Guest has published dozens of plans of a wide variety of subjects and just about all of them feature simple construction, basic materials (balsa, card sanding sealer etc.). It’s usually possible to track down the original build article and purchase a magazine issue secondhand or members of the model boating websites are often happy to scan these and email them to you if asked nicely.
Model Boats magazine publishes free plans in every other issue and again, most of these are straightforward to construct, the January 2023 issue features Ray Wood’s Eventide yacht and recent issues have included a small tug from Glynn and a ‘bumper boat’ from Ashley Needham.
Radio control needn’t cost an arm and a leg either whether bought new or secondhand.
People have been bemoaning the lack of youngsters coming into the hobby for at least 20 years to my knowledge. If it didn’t happen then when there were far more model boaters around, then we have to face the fact that it is unlikely to happen now. Over the last five years, before Covid the numbers have fallen off a cliff, most of the big shows vanished almost overnight and we are left with just Blackpool this year plus efforts from manufacturers such as Deans and events put on by some of the larger clubs. Hopefully Warwick will return next year but otherwise there are few signs of any of the other shows being revived in their old form although there are some overdue moves towards multi model shows.
Given the problems of finding suitable water in many areas it seems to me that the continuance of the hobby as a social activity lies with those remaining clubs which still have healthy memberships although most of those members are probably in or approaching the ‘grandad zone’
Colin
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One thing i've noticed is that certain hobby magazines like RCM&E and Model Boats are hard to find on the shelves these days.
I'm afraid that is a chicken and egg situation. Once sales fall below a certain level in a branch, probably about 5 per month, W H Smith stop stocking them. Just another indication of falling boater numbers.
Colin
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That's if you still have a local WH Smiths. Most have bitten the dust. The majority consume media via phones days.
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Sorry Colin you're too late with twenty years, you need to go back to Tele Tennis and the original Space Invader game to herald the change, far earlier than twenty.
Regards Ian.
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Quite right Ian but for some years before the 20 I was taking a break from model boating in favour of the full size version (and that WAS expensive!)
Funilly enough, beforethat I was happily juggling between the MPBA regatta circuit and writing stuff on my Sinclair Spectrum which was also expensive - I bought a 15 inch colour portable TV for £250 to display the results. You can buy a 43 inch smart TV for that now!
MAP who used to publish Model Boats published two of my games.
Based on the Battle of the River Plate
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/15611/ZX-Spectrum/Raider_41
Based on The Channel Dash
https://spectrumcomputing.co.uk/entry/17510/ZX-Spectrum/Operation_Cerberus
Happy days and I was no computer whizz kid either just an interested 36 year old with two young kids.
Colin
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' The moving pen writes and having writ moves on' Nostalgia ain't what it used to be and the days of Aerokits, Rip-Max, ED etc. are LONG gone so get over it. S*d all to do with lack of waterways, the stupid kids can still manage to find cold ponds in hot weather to drown themselves. The old Farts, and I readily class myself as one, had a period of time where, as kids, we pressed our noses at the shop windows with a sense of wonderment at all the toys, from Dinkys to Aerokits and Eddie Keils offerings displayed, hoping for a 'Surprise' round Christmas or Birthdays. From the mid forties until the mid sixties we still had the 'Mend' and 'Adapt' attitude and disposable income would to the many be an unknown term. Bought my Lathe when I was forty but used one in the works for the previous fifteen.
I hope that I will be able to teach my grandson and great grandson when old enough to APPRECIATE how to interfere with the intricacies of flight of my airforce and boat fleet but I know darned well it will be a transitory experience.
This is not a pessimistic attitude, It's realism.
Regards Ian.
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I’m afraid that I don’t agree that model boating has to be expensive for beginners. Dodgy Geezer’s Ezebilt range is exactly that, plans are free and all you need is a bit of balsa and small motor & running gear.....
Colin
The main reason I put up the EeZeBilt website was to stop these little starter boats becoming completely extinct. Left alone, the few remaining kits would have passed through Ebay for £100 or more, and disappeared into personal collections, never to be seen again.
I reckoned that the best way to preserve them was to make them available over the Web for free, so that lots of people would download them. Spreading them about in this way seems to have been successful - quite a few people liked revisiting their childhood and building them again (often double-sized!) but the main aim was to create thousands of backup copies on disks all over the world... at no extra cost to me. I am still surprised at how widely the plans have spread.
Might the Model Boat website consider a similar exercise? I am sure Glyn Guest could turn out a very good 'starter' design suitable for small stretches of water - perhaps even a short series of boats. If plans for these, with a build log and advice on the purchase/acquisition of materials, running gear, motor and radio were put out on the site - as a free, one-off exercise - you could get a lot more new hits on the web site and, crucially, get the attention of people who are not sufficiently interested in the hobby to fork out for a magazine (at the moment!).
'Free!' has a lot to commend it as an advertising technique, particularly for those who have not thought about the product before. I have seen a number of gyms, golf ranges, etc offering 'Free!' initial trials, and you would be providing the same service for model boating...
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Not sure why there is so much opprobrium aimed at the use of mobile phones (an activity not age-restricted in my experience). Everyone here is sitting in front of some form of communication device and using it for a host of things beyond reading MBM. How is that any different? Times have changed folks - and so have we!
Greg
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I am sure Glynn Guest could turn out a very good 'starter' design suitable for small stretches of water
Basically Glynn has done exactly that in the current Christmas issue with his 15 inch US Army tug pull out plan and building instructions.
Colin
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I fear most looking at the eezibilt kits and GG designs are missing the point. Yes they’re easy to to build, but how many beginners start with one? Most younger people now start with plastic rtr fast electrics and don’t stick with it because of how overpriced and disappointing they are. A lot of young people have no desire to build things anymore, which is not their fault, it’s the way the world was directed by the previous generations. Bill Gates is one of the leading lights in the modernisation of our world, and he’s a right at the tail end of being a baby boomer
The answer for getting more people into the hobby is not the young generation, the majority would not be interested (I speak as one of the forum’s youngest members). The answer for getting more people into the hobby is aiming at the 30+ who have young kids, though how best to do this is not my area of experience. Our club has seen a significant rise in members over the last three years, the youngest is 42, not counting my fiancé who is 26.
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This has come up a few times, last time I commented I was 21, now I'm 25. Have a read of what has been said about the younger generation over the few pages. Then imagine you are a little 'un reading about the hobby and read this thread. Would you continue? Absolutely not...
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Andy,
You have highlighted the split between those who want to simply run boats on the water, hence the attraction of RTR, and those who actually want to be creative in making things which work.
Many younger people do still want to be creative whether it is in physically making things or in designing them - another area where there is a split. Creating computer games is very different from playing them just as building model boats adds another dimension to those who simply want to buy something to sail.
So, as has been said previously, there is an underlying split between makers and consumers. People take pleasure in different things and there can be variants in different areas. Some people like to design or provide tools, physical or virtual, as an end in its own right. Others like to take those tools and create things with them. Fewer people do both.
I use Photoshop Elements to help improve the images I take in my hobby of photography. To me that is just a tool to be used. Others are more interested in developing the capabilities of the software to provide additional options and get their satisfaction from that. There is room for everyone who wants to be creative although it has to be said that a large chunk of the population are not much interested in either these days and are happy to buy a 50 inch TV and consume whatever content is available to it. These people are essentially just passive consumers although they may be creative and active in their day jobs. It takes all sorts.
Colin
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Have a read of what has been said about the younger generation over the few pages. Then imagine you are a little 'un reading about the hobby and read this thread. Would you continue? Absolutely not...
To be perfectly honest, if I were 25 years old again (sigh!), model boating would certainly not be my first choice of a hobby unless I was already particularly hooked on the subject. There are so many other attractive options these days to explore and exploit for those with a bit of imagination and drive. The truth is that model boating is now an old man's hobby and we should not be expecting younger generations to find it especially attractive considering what else is on offer. It all comes down to the individual and the extent to which they are prepared to explore and develop their particular interests. I don't have any quarrel with that. I am on the side of the creative people rather than the passive consumers as that is where the real satisfaction lies.
Colin
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I came back to modeling boats in particular 20 odd years ago with being off work for a month with of all things Chicken Pox. I now find myself the Chairman of our Model boat club. While I have built and do have rc boats in the pipeline I build quite a lot of static plastic kits ( I tend to build while away in the caravan) one reason is when displaying at shows it's to show you don't have to just build RC to be in the club. Back to Juniors when our daughter was 7 we'd been watching a program about the Titanic, the next visit to our local model shop she picked up a fairly big box up (probably looked bigger than it was with a 7 yr old holding it) "dad can you build this one next!"......"No!", it was quickly and carefully put back on the shelf and placed in her hands was a 1:1200 Revel Titanic "you can build it!" so I set about showing her how to build & paint it and make it into a little diarama including a polystyrene iceburg. This was entered as a last minute entry into the juniors section of the Harrogate Model Engineers exhibition, which she won and got a 1st but criticised for no build log. From this acorn.... the following year she followed up with a 1:1200 QE2 and again entered in the junior section at Harrogate build log and all and won a 2nd place. Yes I thought, she's got the modeling bug. Her 3rd build a:1200 QM2. the build was going great, and then we entered her QE2 into the Model Boat Convention at Haydock park. Unfortunately that was the year the Russians came to town! They practically won everything including the juniors, yes they were fantastic models, but the juniors didn't even attend the show! That was it, the rot had set in and it was all we could do to get here to finish the QM2. Now she's 18 still a member of our model boat club and studying Art at Uni so I can only assume somthing has sunk in with her.
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It would appear that RC Helicopters are a "sport" but RC Boats are not. From the Houses of Parliament.
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Sport to me would indicate a competitive element, so yacht and power boat racing yes, but leisure boating no.
Chris
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Basically Glynn has done exactly that in the current Christmas issue with his 15 inch US Army tug pull out plan and building instructions.
Colin
I think this rather missed the point I was trying to make. This very attractive plan is ONLY available to those who buy the magazine - in other words, those who are already interested in and following the hobby. If we want to attract new blood, we need to make such things available to people who are currently OUTSIDE the hobby.
I don't have the benefit of the sort of professional advertising and reach as Model Boats does, but over the years several people have messaged me to say that they have seen the EeZeBilt plans and have started to make one as their first model boat. The initial attraction seems to have been browsing the web and finding a free set of plans and support. That was why I suggested that the Model Boats web site might consider putting up such a service for a single plan and seeing how many people downloaded it...
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Fair enough DG, I suggest you contact the Editor, Lindsey Amrani, with your suggestion. The advertising content on the website is paid for so she would need to pass it on to her bosses to decide.
As moderator of the website I would be quite happy for you to set up a dedicated topic and give it prominence by making it a 'sticky'. The initial post could describe EzEbilt models and give the download link. I know a lot of this is already on there in various places but bringing the EzEbilt material together under one heading would be more likely to catch the eye of casual visitors to the Forum.
Colin
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Have model boats considered making a selection of electronic versions of past free plans available for download? Plenty of content out there already, probably much that isn't respecting copyright, but it may raise some interest.
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Model Boats haven't been involved with the plans service for some years now. It was sold off to Sarik Hobbies who of course are in the business of selling plans rather than giving them away. Prior to this many of the magazine free plans were incorporated into the plans range for sale but that apparently no longer happens. The magazine used to publish feature plan articles where you ordered the plan after reading the article but this seems to have been discontinued after the transfer of the plans service to Sarik.
As I have posted elsewhere, the free plans will be available to digital subscribers with effect from the January 2023 issue. This is clearly aimed at promoting digital subscriptions.
I don't know the ins and outs of it but it would seem that MyTimeMedia decided that maintaining the plans range was simply no longer worth their while as as a commercial proposition. Actual turnover of plans has been very low for years now as most modellers buy RTR boats or build kits and the more serious scale modellers do their research elsewhere.The magazine these days runs on around 50% of it's former budget and contributor payments have been lowered pro rata with little indication of a return to former levels. Regular contributors do it for love, not money, and in the interests of keeping the magazine afloat. It's a better situation than for Marine Modelling which simply went bust due to low circulation figures.
The Plans Service is logically a better fit for Sarik who produce and sell things rather than publish them. If you look up their company details they are essentially just a small family business much like other model boating suppliers.
Colin
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Model Boats haven't been involved with the plans service for some years now. It was sold off to Sarik Hobbies who of course are in the business of selling plans rather than giving them away. Prior to this many of the magazine free plans were incorporated into the plans range for sale but that apparently no longer happens. The magazine used to publish feature plan articles where you ordered the plan after reading the article but this seems to have been discontinued after the transfer of the plans service to Sarik.
Colin
This illustrates a classic problem that model boating (and model flying) is falling into.
During the 1960s, for example, copies of plans commanded considerable prices - they were essential for most people to create a model vehicle - and so a collection was a profitable item. Small companies used to produce their own ranges of models - again, the Intellectual Property invested in these was a valuable asset of the company. If such a company was bought up, the plans and die-cutting tools were essentially what was being bought, and so they appeared on the accountant's books as profit-making property.
Gradually, as the plans became old-fashioned, and the hobby moved on, these items (which held considerable historical value) became less and less valuable in the commercial sense. Although the accountants had defined them as valuable, they were not bringing in money, cost a lot to maintain, and, of course, no one was willing to buy them at the price the accountants had determined that they were worth. But because they were on the books as assets they could not just be 'given away'. In many cases they were just forgotten or written off and destroyed - I guess this is what happened to the Model Aerodrome 'Marinecraft' range, or the 'Felstra' boats. Phil Smith took the Veron range and kept them going for a while - I think some of his aircraft are still available from a company - and the Aerokits range seems to be clinging on. Outer Zone is doing a marvelous job of retaining aircraft plans, but they don't do boats...
It would be nice if there was some form of archive available, like the Public Records Office at Kew, but I don't suppose we can interest the historians at Greenwich in spending money on model plans...
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At least nowadays a number of plans have been saved by individuals by having them as PDFs rather than the original paper copies disappearing by disintegration or being thrown out.
And now and again someone posts asking for identification of a model which has lead to an interesting search to hunt down the mystery model and even better plans. One such turned out to be a kit from Modav for a nice little boat the Sea Vixen which was finally tracked down and a nice addition. Plans courtesy of Canabus/Harry Smith and cleaned up by Ian/Circlip. An internet search threw up nothing about Modav, apart from the Fairey Huntsman 31 kit, which I already knew about and Modav being Model Avionics, later to become Precedent etc.
Chris
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Never be an easy archive while the word copywrong is bandied about. After processing more than 5k toy aero plans to O/Z (another 75 in the last fortnight) I sometimes wonder what's going to happen to the more than 14k that Steve holds for FREE download in the event of something happening to him? On the boat side, probably about 2k some of which thanks to a f*rt in a space suit (Now deceased bless him) known to both Chris and Dodgy, having sent and elicited my services to others to scan, clean and convert purely in the interests of preservation. The Sea Vixen (boat) saga was a lucky shot in the dark, resurrected ONLY due to international co-operation, nobody in the land of its conception came up with the plan but thanks to electronic communication, one appeared from our past penal colony. (JOKE Harry). Another one saved from obscurity but important to a select few. With reference to running an archive for boat plans, I was asked a few years ago if I would administer this for the other free mass archive but due to the number of plans I was 'Tiffling' at the time, (and still do), there are only a number of hours in one day.
The main reason O/Z started was to collate and save the plans that appeared on one of the threads on an American forum. These were mainly from a defunct magazine of which their plan archive had been 'Acquired' by an individual and despite orders being sent for plan copies, nowt came back. As Dodgy is aware, on another thread for boats, on the same site, the acquisition of the plan archive of a model boat manufacturer again now defunct, by a company who has no plans to resurrect the kits but cling to the perceived 'wealth' they own. Thanks to some rebels %) many of the designs are freely available.
BUT, once they're gone, they're gone.
Regards Ian.
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And there is the Brunel Institute at Bristol which holds the David MacGregor plans collection but has no apparent plans(!) to make them available although you can go and look at them I believe.
They took the model plans as part of a bequest from MacGregor's representatives but I was told that they 'don't fit in with our acquisition policy'. There may be some sort of condition which precludes them from selling the plans to a third party. I think they find them a bit of an embarrassment.
Colin
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And there is the Bodleian that keeps copies of ALL magazines, BUT will only let you copy one article.
Regards Ian. Proud possessor of 20 out of 24 issue copies of 'The Model Mechanic' predecessor to Model Maker (The REAL one)
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My wife used to work at the Bodlean, and still knows people there. I can ask her if there's any way around the 'one article' limit.
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Ian - what's O/Z?
Must admit I'm a bit confused regarding rights. Aerokits for example - JoTika state on their web-site that they took over the manufacturing rights in 1999 and now produce the Sea Queen and Sea Commander under the Caldercraft banner and yet SLEC produce the Sea Hornet which was another Aerokits/Les Rowell design, so who does hold the rights to Aerokits?
Then copyright. Vic Smeeds drawings for the Huntsman 28, MM680, for example, as are available from a number of sources. I can understand Sarik having them as they came the Model Maker/Model Boats route but who holds the copyright for all Vic Smeeds designs?
Chris
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The Aerokits rights are complicated, being split between Jotika, SLEC and Lesro! There is a bit of background to this.
Vic Smeed was associated with the various publishers of Model Maker and sister titles but you can often pick up the plans from other online sources as is the case with many older Model Boats plans. I don't think that MyTimeMedia or its successor are much interested in enforcing copyright over these old designs as there is little commercial value in them these days and it would not be cost effective. I bought a copy of the PS Bilsdale plan online fron a internet advertiser which turned out to be a couple living in Canada. The plans were delivered OK but the scanning process had introduced distortions. The plan is no longer listed by Sarik and the copy I got was probably enlarged from a copy of the magazinne in which it was published. I have that issue in my own collection.
The reality is that many of these plans were reproduced in the original magazine issues to a high standard and can be easily enlarged if you get hold of a copy of the original magazine.
Colin
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Thanks Colin, I was just interested out of curiosity. Yes, Aerokits sounds a bit complicated and Veron probably is as well.
Drawings for models from both of those, Swordsman and Huntsman 28 respectively were available, might still be, on an internet auction site, consisting of the original kit drawings and really badly drawn templates, which are pretty much useless.
Chris
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Yes, there was a deliberate policy on the part of kit manufacturers to provide only sufficient documentation to make the model as long as you had the bits as well. So 'plans' were not to scale, and frequently not in proportion either which could cause problems in placing fittings. The most common omission was of course to omit sections so it was difficult to reverse engineer a model if you only had the plan and elevation views.
On top of that, instructions could vary enormously in clarity, some manufacturers were very bad, others better. The instructions for the recent Fairey power boats from SLEC designed by Dave Milbourn were literally models of their kind. A little while back, I made a review model of a traditional fishing boat from a Greek manufacturer. It was a relatively simple static kit and the instructions were pretty clear. The bonus was that it came together with a full sized drawing including all the hull sections which means I could scale it up into a working model if I wish to.
Colin.
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OuterZone Chris and t'other is Aerofred. The copyrite minefield is not helped on many UK generated plans by the successive change of hands, in the main by accountancy firms of the various model mags. A classic example of 'Management stupidity', if you look at Sariks lists, there are a number of plans designated 'X-List' for which not only those but later designs have no picture in the description. I find it unbelievable that no one else has a copy of the 1955 'Aeromodeller Plan Service' handbook where most of the now X series are clearly illustrated and weren''t X at that time. Many designs have been lost due to the deterioration of the plan because not all were drawn on Linen or all rag sheets, ever seen old paper shatter? On one occasion at least one masochist (no, not me) offered to scan the whole of the collection and record electronically for FREE but was turned down by the 'Accountants'. Probably thought HE was going to make millions of pounds selling pirated copies, Doh! wonder how much Sarik makes?
I think the residue of the AeroKits stock was sold to Jokita which included the stocks of printed plans that were included in the kits originally but think Les Rowell had the masters. Both sold copies of the plans to Joe public.
Bulk of Vic Smeeds designs were held by APS and later MAP but held his own later ones when he left MAP.
Dave-S, will send a PM.
Regards Ian.
Forgot to mention Veron. When they closed, Phil Smith retained ALL the master drawings but made available copies which his son now sells.
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Whilst we have gone off at a tangent, as good discussions always do, it is of course relevant to the topic to ensure that plans are available for future builders, however many there are and as a record.
There are a number of sources of drawings on the internet and as Ian touched on what happens when those that set up the sites and maintain them are no longer capable or around? In some ways, as with photographs, electronic storage is worse than paper copies especially if only held by one person.
Archiving can be a bit mind blowing really. Do you try and archive everything or in our case just concentrate on UK produced drawings and kits? And then just on the better known ones? Even without drawings a list of models and pictures has some merit as at least if someone wanted to build one feelers could be put out for plans. A couple of members are saving as many classic models as they can by collecting/refurbishing/building many of them i.e. Madwelshman and Zooma.
The Aerokits Swordsman and Veron Huntsman 28 drawings with poor templates were Ok for me as the kit drawings were excellent and I used them and original Fairey plans as the basis for my own drawings and having made many alterations to the construction there isn't any problem with copyright. No different to other Fairey models really where some kits were based on existing drawings. For my own part I have pretty much every Fairey drawing available, paper and PDF, except those for the latest SLEC kits.
Chris
Edit: overlapped posts. Thanks Ian, will have a look.
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I was told that the 'X' list consisted of plans that the publishers at the time no longer considered to be worth listing as they were making hardly any sales. The the model boating ones (not sure about the aircraft) were passed over to John Cundell when he retired for him to make available on some sort of franchise basis. When the company later changed hands they were taken back in house much to JC's disappointment and annoyance. The new owners couldn't be bothered to go through the chore of illustrating them online and simply listed them instead. I'm not sure just how accurate this is but it came from a good source.
Colin
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Well, as my name has been mentioned a few times, perhaps it's worthwhile to add a comment or two and bring it back to the original topic.
Getting youngsters interested via schools, clubs or other societies is not so easy these days.
Schools are often obsessed with students performance and any extra curricular activities which doesn't have an obvious way to boost exam/test scores wouldn't be welcomed. You might disagree with this but before you blame the teachers, they didn't create this measurable performance obsessed culture.
Even if there was some interest in introducing this hobby to youngsters, the people running the show would likely have no experience and have to get someone in. With the Health & Safety and Child Protection Laws and all the hoops that have to be jumped through and boxes ticked, is there any surprise that they might not feel like doing all this extra work to protect themselves..??
The MPBA has been mentioned and it is hard not to think that they are only currently interested in a limited range of activities in this hobby. The insurance cover used to be a major reason why club members joined the MPBA but then lots of clubs decided to arrange their own cover presumably at less cost than joining the MPBA. Having said that, I cannot help but think that the Officers of the MPBA let things slide to what can appear to be a position of total irrelevance to the vast majority of the UK's Model Boaters.
As for accessible and suitable waters, I've never suffered from a serious problem here. True, I have to drive maybe five miles to use a canal turning basin which is usually very quiet. The local clubs larger sailing water is more than double that distance away from my home but I'm probably luckier than many. But, you don't need a dedicated sailing water to enjoy this hobby.
Back to schools and the lack of knowledge in the teaching staff of our and related hobbies. I've long thought that the publishers of relevant magazines (scale modelling, planes, boats, cars, etc) could have put together something and sent to schools perhaps once a term. It could reprint items, perhaps abridged, that have some relevance to the curriculum. There is a lot of project work in school and believe me, ideas for new and interesting projects are not easy to come by especially if it's something that has to work! Cheap to do as it could be sent out via the internet. There is some sensible scope for advertising things like sources of materials, glues, paints.
Ah, a shade more written than originally intended.
Glynn Guest
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Young members has been a problem for at least the last 25 years, our club (Blackheath Model Power Boat Club) tried may things, we introduced Radio control (in a straight running club, what could go wrong.......well aerial sword fighting for starters, then we tried mini straight running at one of the model engineer exhibitions, then when my Dad was teaching DT at school, they had a vac form machine, sooooo he made a mould and produced 18 inch hulls (the longest he could get into the machine) took them to shows and gave them away, all you had to do was go to Proops (remember them) buy the running gear and a tube glue and you are away......result nothing
Now as GG has said we in the MPBA are a bit slow, and believe me I have sat on so many meetings over the years where they try and solve the problem of not only new members but the youngsters as well.. now there is another problem which has been mentioned before...child protection act.
When I left the entertainment industry I went into teaching Drama, the school that I was at (independent) have a not bad workshop, so I started an after school model engineering club I had 12 students and the first thing I taught them was building a little oscillating engine, followed by a boiler (over several months obviously) most of them worked and they all got a commendation at the Midlands model engineer exhibition (several years ago) Meanwhile the head of DT at the school had now idea how the lathe or milling worked as ( again as GG has said) that is not their thing, they have a curriculum to fill (stick part A to part B) get a good grade and have now knowledge of models.
I then went on to design a small sailing yacht (sort of based on the we nip) very easy to build (note to self not all students know how to treat super glue with respect) I still had the same 12 students and this was their second year with me. I taught them how to cast the lead keel (they liked that it involved huge flame)
Well they were all finished, 2 channel radio, simple. Took the school mini bus to Bushey park (Surrey) and let them loose.....a lot of crash ban wallop, nothing sank.
As far as I know they are all still going, they all wanted a new project after that and came up with a 5 inch gauge loco......, the school approved, I did a deal with Polly Model Engineering....and then Covid.......
So I retired
Sad, who knows where it would have led
Like GG, gone on a bit
And still no answers
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Well, no one could criticise you for trying Phil. Teaching is a skill, which both you and Glynn share. I'm happy to explain things to people which, is why I concentrate on the writing side these days, but teaching is much more of a two way interaction and requires different skills which I lack.
In the more general situation I do find it encouraging that there is now a more positive attitude to acquiring practical skills with aprenticeships becoming more popular again and recognised as a pathway to a worthwhile career. The idea that almost everyone should go to university and get a degree has always been a disaster in my view and doesn't recognise that people have differing talents. It has resulted in degrees in subjects which are of doubtful practical use in the jobs market, such as media studies, and simply landed students in debt.
Getting qualifications in practical skills is far more worthwhile whether they are in what used to be termed white collar or blue collar jobs. In both cases competence has always been the thing to achieve as that is what will earn you a decent living. I have come across many graduates with excellent paper quailfications who have been pretty useless at the jobs they managed to get. It's the people who understand the 'nuts and bolts' either on Paper/Information Technology or in applying hardware that actually make a difference.
I've also always been in favour of learning on the job but combining study with earning a living which gives you a good practical grounding. In my case it was day release to get an HNC in public administration but applies equally in respect of the City & Guilds vocational qualifications.
Colin
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At school I did woodwork and metalwork and enjoyed using the the lathes in each department and the forge and other equipment. The school still has lathes and a forge, albeit electric now rather than coke (!) but sadly none of the teachers know how to use them. :(( So the children who might be inspired and interested to go into engineering etc. don't get the opportunity at an early age before they choose a career.
On the subject of plans again, I was reading the digital version of MB earlier and there is an article on Model Maker plans etc., very timely.
I agree with you Colin about studying and working and like you followed that route. My two sons went to university though, but that was the right route for them.
Chris
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I'm an ex teacher (Chemistry) and even when training there were comments being made that Techical teachers were not coming in from industry with wood and metal working experience. I finished up as a school technician (much less stress) and the school I ended up at was new built and had plenty of new machine tools including three lathes. A lot of the work using these relied on the technician who was an ex toolmaker. (He retired a year after me and don't know the qualifications of the new technician.) Even though I have a small lathe at home plus a bandsaw I couldn't use the ones at work as to do so you had to have attended a training course for them. No such courses were available as the local authority wouldn't spend the money on training.At least there was simple wood and metalwork classes for the first 2 years with the option of continuing on to do Craft and Design quailification.
Jim
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When I was at school in eighties, access to equipment was exceedingly restricted. In metalwork they had a nice pair of Colchester Bantams, but I never saw them turn a revolution. This was during the time woodwork and metalwork became “design technology” and you ended up spending more time in the classroom than the workshop, trying to teach you to run before you could crawl IMO.
My Dad had a small Zyto lathe, but that and the bandsaw were off limits, I think he was concerned I’d use them unsupervised and risk losing digits. When I started an engineering apprenticeship and the first year was full time at a technical college where I spent three days in the workshop, where I got a thorough basic grounding in milling, turning and bench fitting.
After that I was allowed to use the bandsaw and lathe in the home workshop.
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When I was at school they had a well equipped workshop but I left before I got the chance to really use it. The workshop was great but the rest of the school was awful which is why my parents moved me. Smaller school but no equipment at all.
Now one of the first lessons the teacher told us was to hold our hands up and count the number of fingers. He then said at the end of the year there would be a few missing if we didn't do as he told us! It clearly sank in because at the end of the year we all still had all of our fingers!
It was also some of the little things - we were taught at 13 how to wire a plug because in those days most electrical devices did not come with a plug, you had to buy it separately. Some other practical skills were also taught and some good experiments with a Van-der Graff generator - lots of sparks!! which I still remember.
Fundamentally the world has moved on and children are not introduced to the concept of making or repairing things but just to buy something new so many do not discover the sense of achievement in making things, and there is little perceived social benefit to be seen from making model boats.
On public lakes many people look at you in disbelief when you say you made it! Some still cannot understand that a yacht uses wind to move. To be fair if people have never been introduced to the concept there is no reason why they would even have thought about it. As kids we made small yachts and motor boats to sail in the local pond (now long gone) we made our own kites and other stuff so we naturally learned a lot of practicable skills.
I don't think any of us have a real answer other than to be friendly and keep trying and let youngsters have a try where practicable. Lockdown didn't help as it killed lots of shows so no where for potential new members to go and see.
I think one item is that most model boaters have been doing the hobby for years so what they build and sail are very good and a youngster may look at that and think, no way can I do that, which is a circular argument and they are put off. We all agree without youngsters joining in then the hobby will go the way of the dinosaurs!
Sorry, no answer here!
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi all we had our Christmas evening yesterday and I ended up in conversation with our very own teenager who came on his own via another club. He was saying that the 15 - 17 year olds are on their phones. I understood him to mean that they could partake anonimously or withdraw, he said he had a few 'friends' he had never met, they could be anyone maybe even living next door!
I asked about the lack of interpersonal skills that this would lead to. He responded that on occasion he met some and they behaved like 10 year olds.
I asked how he had moved on as he was a quietly confident young man nicely spoken that anyone would be proud to have in the family. He said he got used to it and commented you will never get them here as you are all soooooo old!
He did say that he had just done his mock GCSE's and this was clearly important to him.
I think we must all accept that there is so much pressure on performance and having a qualification as the main method of employing young people. You have to accept that we have to work with the system as it is now. It is all done on-line it is just the way things are now. We as I am sure other clubs have, a presence on facebook and we are watching to see how that pans out.
It looks like the main source of young people to any of our disciplines is via Parents who bring them. We had an interest about 6 months ago from a mother with a 14 year old lad who liked to build and mend things and he was interested. He was working with his dad renovating a sports car. Then he got an invitation to join in a small team in motor sport and he went to them. I do not this think of this as a loss but rather a lad who was going to get his hands dirty doing someting he enjoyed.
Maybe it is us oldies that need to adjust? The times are so different from our now distant youth experiences.
Having read previous threads it is all there, but needs bringing together in a new way.
At our recent Model Show (2000 visitors) I was fortunate to find the Headmaster at last, they have good reason to walk quickly! We shared a mutual friend, I had just found out, which helped a lot. I was able to say how we had failed over the last few years to contact any of the teaching staff and they do have a craft and technology section. He identified himself with an email address for future contact next year. Fingers crossed!
regards
Roy
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If we want to get people involved in our hobby, WE need to get out there and sell it.
That means taking stands of model boats to local events. Maybe even hiring the local village hall and putting on a show ourselves. The general public are NOT going to seek out a pond hidden away unless they are interested already. Those sailing on public pools have the chance to engage people, some of whom may not know yachts are powered by wind, and chat. The success rate will be tiny, but it's going to be higher than sitting on forums moaning no-one wants to join the hobby (this isn't an exclusive model boat thing...).
People are interested, but at the moment, unless they pick up the only magazine on WH Smith's shelves, or randomly search online, they aren't going to be exposed to this hobby.
Even if Warwick show returns, that doesn't help, you only go there if you are interested. We need to be where people are, and there will be lots of general events where a free display stand will be possible. It doesn't matter how small. Your village fete (and before someone leaps up and says they don't have one as though that means the whole idea is doomed, ANY village fete) will do.
People need people to engage them. It's up to us.
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Phil is quite right but I rather suspect that for most older model boaters the energy is no longer there. I still enjoy building models, not so much running them, but but advancing years tend to focus your interests and, to be honest, at the age of 74, I have other priorities to enjoy in my declining years than in actively promoting the hobby, but I salute the efforts of those that do. I rather suspect I am not alone in this respect. (how the hell did I get to 74 anyway? I was just 60 only yesterday! :(()
Colin
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What it requires is many to offer small amounts of their time, rather than a few having to contribute a large effort.
I think it's rather too late to stop the ship from sinking, but may be able to slow its descent.
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I'm guessing that many of the membership who contribute to this forum have been modellers from when they were young? Unlike me for whom it's only been 5 years. We had a spike in interest and builds during lockdown but haven't heard anymore from most of them since.
I think that even if you could get youngsters interested in the majority of cases it would only be a passing interest as it was for one of my brothers and myself. I don't remember my other brother being interested. We moved on to messing with motorcycles and scooters and then cars followed by work and family and little time for hobbies and other interests. I only became interested in model boats as I was looking for a winter hobby as I approached retirement and came from a conversation with a neighbour who is interested in various RC and my lifelong involvement with full-size family boats. So there was an element of luck with me getting interested. What drew others into the hobby and when?
Chris
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I get the horrible feeling that we're a generation too late. I'm 74 and learnt the art of " doing stuff" from my dad. I've tried to give some of the skills to my kids but it was an uphill battle where many of the things we learnt on, cars, washing machines, radios etc. started to call for specialist/modular replacement bits rather than a soldering iron/spanner. Now, a generation later, what use generally is the ability to wield a Stanley knife apart from, of course, doing the decorating? I had a retirement job in a proper hardware shop and it was pretty obvious that there was generally a real skill difference between the age groups.
All is not lost though. A lot of the skills that tended to be the domain of the ladies, knitting, sewing, gardening etc. still ring true so, perhaps, we need to learn from them......again! There are plenty of videos on-line about the finer points of all forms of modelling but I don't know of any that do the "how to draw a straight line" or "how to use a Stanley knife without slicing your finger off" variety but I reckon that's where we need to start.
:-))
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How true TonyH and I am 10 years older than you. Best to ignore age I do.
Over the years when I wanted to learn something from scratch I would visit the childrens section in the library.
Some things are difficult to work out I remember in Spanish wondering what is the equivalent of some..... It was ages before I found out it was the plural of 'one' Uno and Unos. Some things are assumed.
I reckon during covid lock-down there were a lot of model boat kits bought to pass the time. Were they built? have we seen any new boaters?
regards
Roy
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Cheers Roy. I've the same attitude as you about age and it's a fact of life that blokes tend to be children at heart. The sad fact is that it's the basics that have been lost. Your comment about kits over lockdown is spot on and if someone wants a model of Titanic, for example, and spends up to £1000 for a kit, they hope to end up with something decent but if they don't have the basics under their belts then they'd be better off buying the Lego monster and finishing it, especially if something goes awry. Again, lowest common modular denominator.With the knowledge on Mayhem in toto and no doubt on the Model Boats forum, would it not be feasible to make a start of trying to re-establish the basics of modelling successfully without falling into the trap that we're often guilty of and talking down to beginners?We've got O0 the masterclasses, how about a kindergarten?
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then they'd be better off buying the Lego monster and finishing it, especially if something goes awry. Again,
And a great Monster to have as well..
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And a great Monster to have as well..
Can't disagree with that! :-))
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I have always felt the Titanic was a bit of unlucky ship but each to his own!
Roy
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Christmas has been taking up a lot of my time of late, but I did want to return to this topic.
Comments seem to be spread between those who believe that nothing can be done, and those who believe that something should be done - though no one is sure just what might be possible or useful.
For those who believe that nothing can be done, I suggest that they consider how best to preserve information about the hobby for future generations. Plans, manuals, memorabilia, reminiscences and anecdotes are all things which are worth preserving in some way. Model Boats runs a very useful 'Flotsam and Jetsam' series which is ideal for that - I am sure that it would welcome more input.
In the 'something can be done' camp there is some feeling that the representative bodies for the hobby are rather inward looking. If we want to attract more people to the hobby we need to look outside - at people who have no exposure to it, rather than people who already attend model boating events - this was Phil Parker's point.
ChrisF also made the point about the increasing lack of suitable water - without some weight behind the request it is hard to argue with local councils when suitable sites are converted to nature reserves...
Several people spoke about about the decrease in manual skills in schools, and I think that there is a change beginning in the education field. Quite why the country needs 50% of its young people to have academic university degrees escapes me, and I see that there are growing numbers of vocational trainming establishments such as St Edmunds in Norwich - these should be much more responsive to participating in manual hobbies such as ours - but again an individual has less weight than a body representing a larger number of modellers...
One of the things my web site was set up to do was to provide resources for just such activity. As I said earlier, I am now moving more into the area of providing both CNC cutting files and 3-D printing files, to enable educational establishments (and those of us who have appropriately equipped workshops!) to create comprehensive 'virtual kits' in an easy to make up format. It would be nice for such services to be part of a wider initiative rather than being individual instances...
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I work long shifts that start at 3 am, moving to the mid morning to late on at night with a split of the 3 am's for a 2/3 rd's of the year, so time off is spent mostly sleeping now, model work has diminished (in fact come to a complete stop), I have never been able to set a drive train up efficiently, so this stalls most attempts at new boats when I was interested, it's why I started the HMS Victory's Airfix kits as it would not need a drive train and just sail, they are both sat in the loft awaiting a day when I have the mojo to take them out, so I cannot pass on any skills to my lads as they have their own interests.
One morning I was waiting to start my shift, and a BBC news channel article went on about the lock down and how Airfix had re engineered the spitfire with the 1/24th scale having enormous detail - how is this going to enthuse people to build models when shown at 2 am in the morning?.
My opinion is that this county needs to get it's youngsters to get into designing products and making them that makes Britain great again, make technology advances that push us above the likes of those in the east, become another semiconductor producer etc. but thats just me.
Have a very prosperous new year (even if it is a bit difficult at the moment)
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But the same film clips were shown at least twice on the breakfast show. Problem facing ANY manufacturer in the UK are wages.
Regards Ian.
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..... I have never been able to set a drive train up efficiently, so this stalls most attempts at new boats ......
Interesting. One of my current EeZeBilts on the stocks was designed with just this sort of problem in mind.
I thought - "What are the most difficult aspects of making a traditional wood boat?", and came up with:
1 - getting the side skins to attach at the bow
2 - getting the drive train to line up
And so I designed a hull where these issues would not be a problem. You can see from the pics below that the hull is an offshore power boat type - rather like the Surfury - where the side skins simply continue to a point at the front, and there is very little bending requirement at all.
The drive train issue was simply sorted - there is a keyed bulkhead which clips in at the correct angle for the propshaft - the motor is simply bolted to it and the bulkhead is then fixed in place automatically at the correct angle.
It's only been test run so far, and I might change the stern to a round one before going any further. It was designed to take standard 4 1/2 inch figures as an added attraction to juniors....
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I think the future of model building has always been the same, get the kids interested early! I have quite a few great nephews and the eldest has already had a go at sailing one of my models and he handled her really well. He has shown an interest in building something and I’m on the lookout for a decent kit to follow up on. In the meantime I’ve just ordered a Hornby TT 120 set as I think this will interest all the great nephews and get them building.
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In the meantime I’ve just ordered a Hornby TT 120 set as I think this will interest all the great nephews and get them building.
Never seen Hornby TT 120 (https://uk.hornby.com/hornbytt120) before, looks great :-))
Mark
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Mark, have a look on Yesterday next Monday at 9pm Hornby a Model World, they are showing the new TT 120 and how it’s been developed.
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TT or Table Top was used years ago by one of Hornbys competitors - Trix?
Regards Ian
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TT or Table Top was used years ago by one of Hornbys competitors - Trix?
Regards Ian
Apparently the Hornby TT is similar to the old Triang gauge but has been scaled to "true" so is overall a bit more accurate. I like the idea of something that's accurate but easy enough to put away whilst not using it.
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Hi all TT is one tenth of an inch to the foot, which comes out as 2.54 mm to the foot. TT means TableTop and is popular in central Europe according to Wikipedia.
It also scales to 15mm as the height of a human figure.
There used to be a 3mm to the foot scale from Triang Railways and there are still a few fans at this scale.
N gauge is to a smaller scale UK 1 : 148 and Japan 1 : 150 and elseware 1 : 160, all a bit too small for me as I have started using re-railers for OO gauge!
Then if you wish to dig deeper there are the track gauges and the several codes for the height of the rails. Yeesh! I am staying with the UK only scale of OO gauge i.e. 4mm to the foot but the track is to 3.5mm to the foot then there are the rail codes.
If you try to use really old stuff on code 80 rail you won't get past the points.
Cheers
Roy
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What tv channel is the Yesterday program on please, 9pm Hornby show.
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27
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What tv channel is the Yesterday program on please, 9pm Hornby show.
Not sure if the scheduling is correct, the Freesat (channel 159) listing is currently saying the program started at 8pm but it's not on now, hopefully it'll start at 9pm
Mark
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Thank you. I'm hoping to catch this, either 27 or 159.!
N.
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It not on tonight being rescheduled apparently- it might have something on the show they didn’t want to show ahead of the grand announcement from Airfix tomorrow for their new releases for 2023.
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It not on tonight being rescheduled apparently- it might have something on the show they didn’t want to show ahead of the grand announcement from Airfix tomorrow for their new releases for 2023.
Just checked myself and you’re right, it’s something about the Second World War and Pykecrete. A bit disappointed as I was looking forward to seeing a bit more detail of the TT120 sets. I went and checked the “Yesterday “ website and it’s been rescheduled to Thursday night.
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Hi all I watched the programme and it was all about the TT120 set. When you eventually see it the parting shot is a bit of a con! Look at the Flying Scotsman's wheels they are not rotating and then there is a jerky reation one rev and they stop again.
Hope the train sets are better.
Roy
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All I can say is I couldn't find the channels mentioned, one channel said " back at 5am". It looks to me that Yesterday is not avail on free view, aerial connection?
Is it internet dependant?
N
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Hi I have Virgin 360. So it was on at 08:30 but I was expecting 9. I went back on the prog guide clicked it to view It then went to ITV Hub and picked up the programme. An advantage doing this is the adverts are removed.
regards
Roy
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Liverbudgie2 is correct, Channel 27 on freeView. Have you done an auto 'Re-tune' recently? Shouldn't be T'internet dependant, thus 'Freeview'
Regards Ian.
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Excuse me for asking but -
What have the last 15 posts on this thread got to do with the 'Future of Model Boating' ?
Don't you just hate it when a thread gets hi-jacked off to another subject ?
OK, rant over, apologies to anyone offended by my reaction to the divergence.
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It's quite an old TV not been tuned since day 1 when M&S sold electrical. I might try to retune it, ch 27 didn't appear at all.
N
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Yes, you're quite right we have diverged a bit from the original topic but the TV aspect was to do with the Hornby new scale train set, another hobby I know.
My earlier post re the topic in question was that Grandads are probably the obvious way forward to keep the model boat hobby going via their grandchildren, well hopefully.
Apologies for diverging so much.
N.
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Interesting. One of my current EeZeBilts on the stocks was designed with just this sort of problem in mind.
Didn't I see this in one of the Star Wars films ...?!?!?!
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdgH1C9N/side-view.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdgH1C9N)
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Yes, you're quite right we have diverged a bit from the original topic but the TV aspect was to do with the Hornby new scale train set, another hobby I know.
My earlier post re the topic in question was that Grandads are probably the obvious way forward to keep the model boat hobby going via their grandchildren, well hopefully.
Apologies for diverging so much.
N.
It is true, my granddaughters spend many hours with me in the workshop, I have designed some easy build projects (mainly little cars) so they can play with them at home (easier than digging a pond) although we are working on a few little boats at the moment.....
Yes I think grandads are now leading the young (I just hope they carry on, grandads and grandchildren) O0 O0
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Absolutely agree Phil. I have the time to show my grandson how to build and fix bits of boats that i sail and prepare for him.
Hs learns stuff with me every time we get together. We sail and repair boats when the weather is good. He may carry on without me one day,
I tried, he enjoyed. What more can you do.
Nord.
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Didn't I see this in one of the Star Wars films ...?!?!?!
(https://i.postimg.cc/VdgH1C9N/side-view.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VdgH1C9N)
Do you want the plans? %)
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Do they come with an R2D2 unit %) and an imperial team chasing him
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The hull shape reminds me of a design by Nick Rees called 'The Bug'. I know that design works exceedingly well.
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The hull shape reminds me of a design by Nick Rees called 'The Bug'. I know that design works exceedingly well.
It's actually close to the Delta hull designs of Sonny Levi - which is why I put that Surfury superstructure on it. At the moment I'm wondering whether to change the stern to rounded one and call it a 'stand-off scale' Surfury, or make another hull with a rounded stern to compare the difference. His Delta hulls went very fast in a straight line, but were not designed to turn at all....
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The Bug is certainly no poor turner.
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The hull shape reminds me of a design by Nick Rees called 'The Bug'. I know that design works exceedingly well.
http://www.traplet.com.au/the-bug-bm1395
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http://www.traplet.com.au/the-bug-bm1395 (http://www.traplet.com.au/the-bug-bm1395)
Thanks - interesting similarity,and not a boat I'd seen before. My design was primarily driven by looking for the easiest way to glue 4 sheets of balsa together to make an exciting-looking hull for beginners. I wonder how long the Bug is - mine is 24" x 6"...The Bug looks smaller...
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The Bug is about 17" long.