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Author Topic: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?  (Read 5072 times)

Patternmaker

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2009, 11:05:33 AM »

Here's an interesting story to mull over about Dale Farm illegal travellers site to from our local newspaper,

(Traveller leader president of the Gypsy Council tried to strike a 2million deal with Local Council chiefs so 86 families would leave peacefully if they handed over the huge sum as it will cost the 2million to remove them).

I has already cost the council  100 of thousands of pounds in legal fees to get the eviction order to remove them, all the travellers costs borne by legal aid!

No wonder our council tax has gone through the roof.
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maninthestreet

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2009, 12:43:36 PM »

And people wonder why there is a surge toward the right, it's staring everyone in the face for goodness sake! This kind of pc pandering nonsense will eventually turn society round, the right wing will grow and there will be bigger problems ahead than we have now. It's no good moaning about people turning to the 'right' if all you do is keep raping the system and their wallets in favour of some 'disadvanted' minority who decide to either dump themselves on your doorstep or choose to live outside society with their own rules which are diametrically oppose to the very society which supports them.
This pathetic pc thinking and practices will be responsible for putting and extreme right wing government in place. It will be by their own hand and everyone will be able to sit back and watch and listen whilst THEY moan for a change!
 
 

Couldn't have put it better myself.
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Perkasaman2

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2009, 03:17:05 PM »

Our NHS/democracy is still the envy of many peoples in the world.  :}
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Inkmark

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2009, 03:39:42 PM »

Guys
Interesting reference to democracy.
I think we have the democracy of the media in the UK now, after all if it's on the tele everyone takes notice.
I am old enough to remember when CB radios were introduced on 27 Meg. Over a million licenced modellers
(yes we had to pay in those days) suddenly were overruled by a few hundred cars driving round parliament square.
Same here. Travellers do what they want and make a song and dance in the media.
As an experiment just you try to build a shed on green belt without planning permission.
You would be gone in a flash, just like the guy who built a tree house in his own garden without planning permission.
Basically there are rules and we should abide, everybody no matter from what ethnic background you originate.
Cheers
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Patternmaker

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2009, 06:04:45 PM »

Absolutely correct Inkmark,
The travellers have built several houses on the Dale Farm site without planning permission and the council had to get an eviction order to gain access to demolish them as it is to dangerous to enter the site, I wonder if the council will eventually send them the bill for demolition as they do normally to anyone who builds
without planning permission but then I suppose they would get legal aid to pay the bill or rather the tax payer
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wombat

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2009, 08:49:42 PM »

I'm not suggesting they should be discriminated against but they don't tend to be very co operative with conventional authorities. Attempting to get their kids into some minimal degree of education has proved to be very difficult. It is certainly a problem but the very nature of their society is that they do not wish to engage with normal society and are to some extent parasitic on it. And yes, I do recognise that there is a distinction between genuine Gypsies and "Travellers" generally. My comments stem from many years working for a County Council which has a statutory duty to provide for travellers.

Colin - yes there does need to be a quid-pro-quo. There has to be some measure of reciprocation. The coming of travellers does tend to be disruptive on the communities they encounter. One of the problems comes from a fundamental shift in the way government services with the Major administration - the shift in concept to view the users of services as "customers" rather than "clients" and the rather fatuous idea of the internal market. It put the emphasis on the consumers demanding what they want.  Perhaps what society needs is to shift the focus back from rights to responsibilities.

Quote from: DieselDo
Wom,
I do disagree with positive discrimination. Discrimination is Discrimination so where should it stop.

I am not so sure - it is something that can help disadvantaged groups in the short term. Problem is that it does stir up prejudices that those groups are getting an easy ride - despite the fact it is attempting to level the playing field. Problem is how do you deal with prejudice and the discrimination that comes from it? In many ways positive discrimination is perhaps not so much the best solution as one of the least worst. Political Correctness does get fairly bad press - I think that it has become a parody of itself because of the ideological and doctinaire way it is used. The basic idea of politcal correctness though is very laudible - that one sohuld be aware that the way things are said may betray you own prejudices and that as far as possible neutral or positive terms should be used, particularly when speaking on behalf of an agency or body, where what the individual says is taken as what the agency says. This can get taken to extremes though.

I think that our welfare state is something to be proud of - it embodies the ideals of a socialism that is now lost - the idea of comunity where each recieve according to their need and provide according to their ability. Problem is it don't work when the emphaisis is on the individual. The move to the right, I think, is not just a feature of the disenchantment with the political process. With the disintigration of the concept of community, people have lost their sense of belonging and become isolated and alienated. Bring in a sense of uncertainty such as economic upheaval to create a climate of fear and you have a fertile groud for the right who offer a sense of community and a set of scapegoats for the problems the individual see as besetting them. Just look at the rise of Fascism in the wake of WWI and the collapse of the Weimar Republic.

Going back to the original subject - I think that the situation is being exploited by the tabloid media for no other reason than to see papers. It is out and out manipulation. Remember what R.L. Stevenson wrote: "One can never hope to bribe or twist, thank God, the British journalist. Being seeing what the man, unbribed, will do there isn't an occaision to" The print media has a problem in that its traditional role has been taken over by the broadcast media and the Internet - they have to find a new role, and one they are trying to develop is to comment upon and interpret events rather than report them. This involves them taking on populist hobby-horses to sell their rags.  Typically, inm the tabloids, this is through lowest-common-denominator rhetoric.

And the solution offered in the guidelines - in the first case it did make me uneasy, but the more I have thought about it, the more it seems to me that it is a very good solution - low cost - very simple to implement the guidelines - it ticks the positive action box meeting the requirements of the legislation and yet it relies no the travellers to come into the surgeries - if they don't come in there is no service given (no outreach costs, no special staff etc etc). Then they will get the attention - but because of their mobile lifestyle the travellers will be moving on very soon so the burden on any particular surgery or trust will be limited. A fairly elegant solution - with a Machiavellian simplicity.

Wom
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Patternmaker

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2009, 10:04:21 PM »

Travellers building large 4 bedroom houses, I dont think they will be moving on soon.
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DieselDo

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2009, 10:47:13 PM »

Wombat,
One of the real sticking points is the cost.
This positive discrimination is seen as disadvantaging the very people who pay for the service.
Most residents pay Tax and National Insurance, as the Health Trusts are very cost conscious now it has to lead to a reduction of the service to the indigenous population who are paying for the service.
I don't have a problem of use when needed, but do have a problem with ANY group having a disruptive advantage over the rest.
As Colin has said they use a lifestyle choice to suit themselves, not the community as a whole, leave the local taxpayers with huge costs to clean up after they chose to leave.
They force entry on any land they want so therefore disengaging with our laws and customs.
Then expect superior service over the tax payers supplying it.
Surely you must admit there is ammunition for a backlash.

Bob
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Patternmaker

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2009, 11:22:13 AM »

I do not object to travellers or their lifestyle as it is their choice, what I do object to is their blatant disregard for   the law.
I lived on a houseboat from birth for over 20years and were regarded by a minority of people as gypsies but we did pay rates, and pay for our water.

With regard to Dale Farm you have to respect the feelings of the law abiding people who bought their houses many years ago backing on to the green belt land which has become an illegal travellers site. There outlook now is a fenced garrison living in fear of reprisals if they do or say anything to the travellers, they cannot move because nobody will buy their houses. It's now become a no-go area for the police. The only way to track the activities on the site is by aerial photograph's

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Perkasaman2

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Re: UNBELIEVABLE or is it ?
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2009, 06:31:45 PM »

I agree with Wombat's impressive reasoning/analysis but also see a real need to pass law's which give police appropriate/immediate powers (which apply on public roads/areas) extended to act in these 'trveller' situations. An alternative to the current ineffective lengthy/cost prohibitive civil actions to prevent  'Dale Farm situations' which enables prompt/effective action. These people are still paying plenty of non- house taxes - many authorities run transit/short stay sites/facilities to minimise avoid friction/nuisance - a better solution for everyone. Don't fancy the protest vote/bunker/armageddon approach  :o.   
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