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Author Topic: Evenos /Mont Caume  (Read 20059 times)

sjoormen

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Evenos /Mont Caume
« on: July 01, 2009, 05:17:00 PM »

Hello
I`ve been looking for plans of steam tugboats few years back and I found plans for two French tugboats:
»Mont Caume« and »Evenos« on this link:
http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/,
 I learned that they were ex German tugboats (I think) in service 1930-64 and their length was 28,5 m
and plans for them are under name Remorqueurs de 600 chevaux.
Because uncle Google doesn't help much and I know no French I need your help with any information where to search for any photos .
Thanks in advance
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2009, 06:20:26 PM »

Thank you, I hope that will help, still every help is welcomed and every link appreciated.
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DickyD

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2009, 06:23:49 PM »

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Proteus

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2009, 07:05:52 PM »

 DickyD    Read his post he said he could not read French and Goggle wasn't helping , NOW he can read the site and see if there are any links,

PICK PICK PICK

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DickyD

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2009, 08:11:35 PM »

Beg your pardon, another old moment.  :embarrassed:
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Xtian29

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 08:46:26 AM »

Hello

There is not a lot of pictures "easy" available for those tugs.

With Marius bar there is one of the Evenos taken in 1952.  http://www.mariusbar-photo.com/catalogue.php?action=view_new&pageCourante=1&choix=ebat&catalogue=fg&PHPSESSID=0b7e0b59c937a296c1ccdeabb6

And 6 for the Mont Caume http://www.mariusbar-photo.com/catalogue.php?action=view_new&pageCourante=2&choix=mbat&catalogue=fg&PHPSESSID=0b7e0b59c937a296c1ccdeabb6

Marius bar is a well known professional photographer / collector / salesman. It's a pity but there is no way to see a piture on the net prior to buying.

A+ Xtian
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 04:20:23 PM »

Thank you for information, I will try to contact them and then I will see how it goes
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Xtian29

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 04:32:38 PM »

Don't hesitated to contact me by PM if you need assistance

A+ Xtian
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 05:42:12 PM »

Thnak you- I will do that, my French is, well as I said: there is none :embarrassed::
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 02:10:34 PM »

Although I have no photos yet I started the plug of the hull to see that lines are OK. I like plans from this link- they are very accurate, but some details are missing

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gondolier88

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 07:49:27 PM »

Hi Sjoormen,

That will be a beautiful model, what scale have you gone for?

Just wondered what the iron oblong sections are for?

Greg

Ps- what are you powering the tug with?
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 08:11:44 PM »

I find it interesting, I hope it will look fine, As I am studying plans it reveals more and more interesting features(and much more details that I thought at first). Those iron things are old cutting tools  I use for weights when gluing things(to fix them in right positions) As for what will power this thing- no idea yet- diameter of propeller is 110mm so probably geared speed 900 BTW: scale is 1:24( to match my other models)
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gondolier88

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 08:35:55 PM »

Hi Sjoormen,

Thats an impressive prop!

Would suit a nice steam plant to a 'T'!

What do you intend to do- plank on frame or plug and GRP?

Greg
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2009, 09:54:47 AM »

Hull will be made of glass and epoxy resin. About steam plant -there is a thought- well I don't know yet- there is question of price, I don't  know -aren't boats with steam plants usually larger. I have very little knowledge about steam, so.. Any idea is welcome.
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2009, 03:52:40 PM »

Some progress with plug



It was busy weekend

I like her lines , but it is quite big and working room is  messy
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gondolier88

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2009, 06:10:06 PM »

Hi Sjoormen

Hull will be made of glass and epoxy resin. About steam plant -there is a thought- well I don't know yet- there is question of price, I don't  know -aren't boats with steam plants usually larger. I have very little knowledge about steam, so.. Any idea is welcome.

Before I can advise you I need to know a few things...

1. What are the overall dimensions of the boat?

2. What budget, if any, do you have for a plant?

3. Do you have machining skills and equipment, or would you have to buy a kit, or even a ready built plant?

A plant can be fitted into pretty much any size boat from 25" and longer, it's the beam that really matters, and yours looks like it has plenty!

Greg
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Xtian29

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2009, 10:05:49 PM »

Hello

Very nice built Sjoormen  :-))

A+ Xtian
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2009, 02:35:49 PM »

Thank you both for replies, I have few questions(again).

Xtian I tried contacted Marius bar but after week there is no answer- is normal for them to take this long(this time of year).

Gondolier boats length is 1118 mm at beam is 265mm, displacement is unknown for now.

About budget , well what ever it takes  ;)( but sometimes built is slowly). I´ ve been looking these plants and they are quite expensive, so I´ ve been thinking maybe it would be best to make heater and boiler at home and to buy engine itself. I have some skills  and some equipment, but about steam itself I know very little, so maybe with some help,.. How much power this kind of boat requires anyway?

And another thing puzzles me :there has been few threads at this forum about riveting and plating, did somebody tried to plate like this? I tried to find some photos but with no luck yet
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gondolier88

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2009, 05:49:21 PM »

Hi Sjoormen,


"Gondolier boats length is 1118 mm at beam is 265mm, displacement is unknown for now.

About budget , well what ever it takes  ( but sometimes built is slowly). I´ ve been looking these plants and they are quite expensive, so I´ ve been thinking maybe it would be best to make heater and boiler at home and to buy engine itself. I have some skills  and some equipment, but about steam itself I know very little, so maybe with some help,.. How much power this kind of boat requires anyway?"

In reply- That boat sounds plenty big enough, and by the pics I would say you have enough displacement.

A slowly built steam plant will always be the best- and a well planned one will always work better, and a well working one will always give you more pleasure in return.

First of all you will need a few things to build a boiler- a professional blowtorch or ideally an Oxy-Acetylene set- and know how to use them- you will need a proven design or know how to calculate material stresses to design your own. You will need to posses annealing skills, tapping and threading equipment, and know how to form copper.

Alternatively you can buy boiler kits- so you'll only need soldering equipment.

A burner can also be bought commercially for relatively little cost.

Any engine with a cylinder size of 11mm (3/8") square or bigger will be perfectly suitable- though to give 'scale' appearance and power a twin cylinder engine of 22mm (3/4") square. The bigger the engine you have, the bigger the boiler as it will use more steam.

A typical budget could range from approx' £400 for everything to £2500!!! Depending on what you buy, where you buy it, what you have to do to it once you have got it and of course the quality of the item.

I recommend these links;

www.forest-classics.co.uk- burners gas tanks,, bits and bobs, including a fantastic auto boiler pressure gas regulator- want one of those!

www.stuartmodels.com- you have probably heard of these people- very old and famous company- beautiful engines, many more than suitable for your tug- recommend the D10.

www.maccsteam.com- good quality and quite affordable boilers, gas tanks, burners and fittings.

www.engineersemporium.co.uk- second hand and brand new steam equipment- stock always changing.

www.stationroadsteam.com- as above but generally more comprehensive.

www.steamfittings.co.uk-  clue is in the title- steam fittings galore- everything to finish a plant off.

www.blackgates.co.uk- steam fittings, tools, engine plans, materials and boiler kits.

www.mainsteam.co.uk - fantastic collection of model marine steam equipment.

www.ajreeves.com - everything you could ever wish for and more- their international steam fittings range is pretty good.

www.monohansteammodels.com - fantastic engines- probably the best looking in the hobby- and some good, although rather american looking, steam fittings.

www.miniaturesteammodels.com - still make the wonderful original cheddar ’puffin’ engine- the ’clyde’ osscillator in their range- wonderful engine and really controllable.

See diagram I put together for you- general arrangement of steam plant in a model.

Please keep asking questions- don't be put off by the budget, there is more than one way to skin a cat- search ebay, model engineering magazines, and of course this forum.

Have a search through the steam sections of this forum- there are some very interesting and well built steam plants.

We'll have a model engineer of you yet! :}

Greg


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Xtian29

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 08:22:31 PM »

Hello

Yes in July France is like a closed store or factory ... Only beaches and restaurants are open  %% I will try a call tomorrow

A+ Xtian
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Xtian29

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2009, 08:37:31 AM »

Hello Sjoormen

I've call Marius Bar today and it's open in july -

The problem they said is that they received more than 200 e-mail every day and they do like a "sorting".

So please send me your request (my personnal adress is in the left enveloppe just under my name) So I will do the request for you in French and I will follow it.

Have a nice day

A+ Xtian
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sjoormen

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2009, 05:28:34 PM »

Hi

Gondolier, I tried to learn something new about steam plants, How do you know which one is best for ones purpose there are so many, so many types-which is most reliable . How do you calculate needed power?  Just for fun:
http://www.aero-naut.net/index.php?id=634&L=1

Here it states that is for boats 100-200 cm long but 0,038 HP -that is not very much compared with electric motors (unless these boats are very narrow) or I am mistaken?
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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2009, 06:44:53 PM »

I find it interesting, I hope it will look fine, As I am studying plans it reveals more and more interesting features(and much more details that I thought at first). Those iron things are old cutting tools  I use for weights when gluing things(to fix them in right positions) As for what will power this thing- no idea yet- diameter of propeller is 110mm so probably geared speed 900 BTW: scale is 1:24( to match my other models)

if you blow up sections of the plan you have om your pc and print them out , I found a lot of detail you can then put arrows points to things of interest in highlight pen , you end up with lots of squiggles and marks but it stops you forgeting about bits you find .

and the hull is  looking really good

Proteus
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gondolier88

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Re: Evenos /Mont Caume
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2009, 06:02:51 PM »

Hi Sjoormen,

Gondolier, I tried to learn something new about steam plants, How do you know which one is best for ones purpose there are so many, so many types-which is most reliable . How do you calculate needed power?  Just for fun:
http://www.aero-naut.net/index.php?id=634&L=1

Here it states that is for boats 100-200 cm long but 0,038 HP -that is not very much compared with electric motors (unless these boats are very narrow) or I am mistaken?

Your first lesson in steam has been learned- they don't produce much power- well not horsepower anyway- I'll give you an example in SY Gondola, the boat I work on- she has  twin cylinder 'V' engine- cylinders are 9" X 8"- supplied with steam @ 40psi (2.8bar) on the valvechests (the chambers on each cylinder that control the admission and exhaust steam)  giving a cruising RPM of approx 140-150 RPM and a speed of 6/7 Knots, at this speed the engine produces aprox just 30HP! And that’s a 45ton boat!!!

However if you were to compare the torque to an electric motor- it has the same line of acceleration- ie. no matter what power it's producing, it produces max torque (ie. from 0 RPM to max. RPM) yet a steam engine will produce MORE of it.

This means you can stick a slow revving but big diameter and good pitch propeller on the blunt end- which is after all what the prototype had!

Also- a few people have used those Saito engines in model tugs to good effect- you just have to be careful because although great value and beautifully built- they are on the fragile side of build quality and can't be fed more than 30psi steam pressure- this means it would use more steam than one that could work at steam at say 100psi.

You get what you pay for!

As regards power requirements- there are few engines which come to mind that have power specified by the manufacturer- other than a couple of the Stuart Turner ones- you could always get in touch with the manufacturer- i'm sure they would be more than happy to help.

There is a way to calculate the Horsepower made by a steam engine- this is called the PLAN method;

P- Mean effective pressure working on the pistons. (psi)
L- length of piston travel (Feet) (ie a piston travelling @ 3inch on it's downstroke and 3inch on it's upstroke, completing one full stroke of .5 Feet for every rev of the crankshaft)
A- Area of piston (Sq. Inch)
N- RPM

Then divide by 33,000

PLAN
33,000

Then further divide by around 15 at a generous estimate- this will give you the power minus the inefficiencies of the plant- frictional losses and such, in a full size plant this number  would be far less- 6 or 7, but in a model plant frictional losses are of far greater detriment.

So a working example of a twin cylinder model steam engine- it has two cylinders- each are double acting. Each cylinder is .5 inch wide and a working stroke of .5 inch. The piston, then, has an area of Pi x r so 3.141 x .25 inch gives an area of .7853 inches.

In a model engine working on 100psi steam from the boiler it will typically have a mean effective pressure working on the piston of 20-35psi on its entire stroke, lets for arguments sake call it 30psi. (2 Bar) In a full size plant this figure is normally 50% the value of boiler pressure, so would normally be 50PSI- however scale pipe sizes and tight corners mean that in a model engine losses are much greater.

As we have a stroke of .5 inches, and it is a double acting cylinder- a piston will move 1 inch on one full rev of the shaft while doing work- and at a typical 400 RPM it will travel 33.3 Feet (1 / 12 x 400)

We have to double this figure at the end however as we are talking about a twin cylinder engine.

So our PLAN is thus;

30 (psi) x 33.3 (ft)  x .7853 (sq. inch)  x 400 (rpm)
33,000
/15
X 2

Equals a power of- 1.26Hp theoretically- however, as i've mentioned before the power doesn't really matter, it's the usable torque of the steam engine that is it's real advantage.

So now you know how to calculate your own power, which engine is the most reliable?

Well, you must ALWAYS have a twin cylinder (or more) SIMPLE engine (meaning that as it uses the steam it exhausts away from the engine) this is the complete opposite of COMPOUND (engines which use the steam twice), and TRIPLE EXPANSION engines (which use it three times), in full size even QUADRUPLE EXPANSION (steam expanded four times) engines were made, however it would be difficult to get to work in model sizes.

This is because only one cylinder will be supplied with steam at first and if it is at rest on it’s top or bottom dead centre (TDC or BDC) it WILL NOT start! Not what you want when your prised tug is being blown by the breeze to the other side of the boating pond!

Hope this is of some help. Any more questions and I’ll happily help- I’m quite enjoying teaching a newbie the intricacies of steam. ;)

Greg
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