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Author Topic: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!  (Read 49671 times)

ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2010, 01:26:18 pm »

sorry for duplication from another new thread, but I wanted the video to be attached to this build thread also. Its an on board camera, at Gautby Road in Birkenhead, prop testing! :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSdb8C9e_JY

Red, do you prefer comments on this thread or the other one at http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=26768.0
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ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #76 on: October 20, 2010, 03:13:55 pm »


In keeping with this thread, I have just looked back on all your (lovely) pics as I wished to see your running gear from the side to compare with mine (pi to follow).

This is in relation to Rudder shape, size and position & Prop position etc.

I am pretty happy with the handling of my boat, but, being aware of the tendency for this design to lean inwards excessively during turns, esp on a course pitch prop, I am keen to attempt to minimise this.

I can envisage the forces from the rudder and the prop wash "lifting" the outside of the boat during a turn.
I have seen various rudder shapes (mostly on Multi FSRV Racers) - some have the rudder much thinner in the area of the prop wash, though my thinking is, the lower area of the rudder should be smaller than the part nearer the hull, as this would result in less leverage pushing the outer, rear part of the hull out of the water (hard to explain in words, but easy to "imagine" what goes on)
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #77 on: October 20, 2010, 09:33:03 pm »

yep know exactly what you mean ghost, I suffered real bad with my 3 foot aerokits Fireboat. My saviour (HS93) made me a narrow rudder and it cured all the handling and turning probs. With the hunts, I have not yet done any work on the rudder its a big brass thing, I have no handling problems at all, only self induced ones, that are:

When at speed, especially in choppy water, if I throttle off for a tight turn, the boat goes stern light, and if I apply rudder at that moment, it ploughs straight on :embarrassed:, I have to think of this when on a small lake as I have been very close to the walls on a number of times. On one of the previous videos, you can see this happen. Due to torque roll, left hand turns are sweet, right handers you have to be on your guard as  at speed its a little bumpy :-))
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #78 on: October 20, 2010, 10:47:25 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Jcz3ic_Og

Hoylake earlier this year with onboard rear facing camera, check out how close to the walls once or twice! :-))

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfjAm3l7A0M

Hoylake last sunday morning, is it my imagination or is the mtor getting noisier! :}
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #79 on: October 21, 2010, 02:24:12 am »

Yep it rattles like a BMW :}, who built the crappy gear reduction %% I think it needs new bearings ok2, Oh and a tighter belt >>:-(

 <*<Peter <*<
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ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #80 on: October 21, 2010, 11:10:28 am »

When at speed, especially in choppy water, if I throttle off for a tight turn, the boat goes stern light, and if I apply rudder at that moment, it ploughs straight on :embarrassed:, I have to think of this when on a small lake as I have been very close to the walls on a number of times. On one of the previous videos, you can see this happen. Due to torque roll, left hand turns are sweet, right handers you have to be on your guard as  at speed its a little bumpy :-))

Aye, when I was at Gautby lake (3 weeks ago) a guy there pointed out that with a hull like ours, the best approach was the opposite of driving a car fast. that is enter the corner at speed, throttle right down during the corner and only apply full throttle after the rudder is straight again. This seems to lessen the "lifting" effect on the rudder from the prop wash.

I tried it, and the cornering, (esp r/h ones) was certainly less "hairy"

I intend to build another rudder with less area low (down as suggested above) and see what that does.
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2010, 11:26:41 pm »

still not done the rudder yet ghost! :-))

here is a short video with an amp meter meassuring amp draw whilst running, it also shows the belt drive working at speed, quite interesting, I was expecting the belt to be flapping around as I like it loose to stop drag on the driveline, it does wander up the pulleys though, I was messing around with different size props, (again!! :embarrassed: :embarrassed:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vJGoCM8vM
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Bryan - G4CVF

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2010, 01:25:40 pm »

Hi Red181,

I have been reading your build record and found it very informative and useful. Many thanks for taking the time to document it.

Just about to start the renovation/completion of a Veron Huntsman 28 (winter project).  Problem is I now have a standard to aim for and that's going to be difficult for me to achieve !!!



The vac-forming looks interesting and I wondered what thickness plastics you were using in the end ? Also, what thickness plastic did you use for the windscreen ?

Probably more questions to come but for now I'll re-read this thread and see what I've missed.

Bryan


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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2010, 03:38:09 pm »

Hi Bryan,

anything I can do just ask, the windscreen was real hard work, I didn't want just thin plastic wrapped around a frame, it is lexan 2mm I seem to recall. I made a cardboard screen, then made a frame out of an old biscuit tin, and then melted, well heated! the lexan over this, it took a few attempts to get it right, and I think if I did it again could do better. The downside is extra weight and I suppose thin plastic would have been equally as good. I fitted it with 4 2mm bolts, so it can be removed for replacement or maintenance. The frame was made from plastic "u" profile strips long enough to do the top and bottom in one go so no joints, this was from B & Q. I then went to the local car "tinting" shop, and scrounged some mid grey scraps and tinted all the windows, inc the screen.

The air intakes, if you are struggling let me know, Ill do a couple for you, it was 1mm I think as I experimented with a lot of plastic card, from easter egg cartons, plastic page dividers, to shop bought, even the plastic card that flowers are wrapped in, anything really, the painting was the problem, I wanted chrome finish, have a look through this thread for all the details :-))
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Bryan - G4CVF

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2010, 09:19:11 pm »

OK Red181 - thank you for the offer. I may well take you up on it. For now though, having re-read the thread, I fancy trying the process you have described. I hope over the next few days to build a jig and see how I get on.  It won't be side vents yet but I would like to prove I have the means to vac form items. It's something I have never thouight of doing before and it could be very useful for all future builds.

Bryan
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madwelshman

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2010, 09:16:56 pm »

What a simply STUNNING boat  :-))
I love the full size Fairey boats and am looking for a Huntsman, Swordsman or Spearfish model. I quite fancy the Precedent Huntsman, but if I got one of those, I would have to convert it to aft cockpit instead of aft cabin as I prefer the sweeping lines of the larger open cockpit.
Thank you for taking the time to show us all your work and pass on the info.

Will
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phillnjack

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #86 on: January 27, 2011, 01:41:13 am »

This story from start to now has been a fantastic read.
I do like it when people tell of the mistakes as well as the good bits, it gives us all hope.

I do think that your trying for far too much speed with the boat and personaly i would definitely drop prop size.

The best thing to do is try a few different props, all metal as plastic bends far too much to give an honest result.

The x50 alloy will be slower as the pitch wont be as small as the plastic due to flexing.even active x reinforced are not like metal.
The x 50 plastic is like a x42.5 metal.
Plus if you slow down a tad youl get much longer runs and more motor life.


Its a wonderfull looking boat in every way, would be a terrible shame to crash it.

have you tried a hand held gps on board to see  what it does speed wise ?


very good topic
well done

phill
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #87 on: January 28, 2011, 12:08:00 am »

Hi Phil, thanks for comments, and you must have read my mind!! :}

Story so far, I love testing and meddling, better than just sailing, so during the big freeze things have been moving on, Firstly you are right, I am pushing this old girl way too fast, but you have to see it to believe how superb it handles, the videos just dont do it justice!

 Anyway, my "mentor" who has done a fair bit of work for me has been saying exactly the same, brass quality prop, slow up a bit, so the shaft assembly has been removed, and re-bushed and new bearings with new 5mm stainless shaft, but the prop end has a 4mm thread. Reason for this, between us we have possibly 10 propshop props to test with. I did a fair bit of testing with my Fireboat and resulted in a 4 blade cleaver prop, there was a very clever explanation for this, and propshop where very helpful, its something to do with the way the water leaves the prop blades O0, but in my heavy hande way I stripped the thread in the motor pinion gear, its held on with 2 grub screws, so just waiting for that to be re-tapped then the testing begins again. I have a load of data for the 2 blade "x" props, so will know the comparison.

I am also the proud owner of a new eagletree data recorder, with the gps add on, so will be able to record amps, revs, and that important speed. I can map it with google maps, and graph the battery performance, all should be able to be uploaded on here which should be interesting .


Over the last 18 months, when this started, brushless motors have moved on, and costs have fallen sdramatically, which leads me to belive I now need a lower kv (something like 900kv) outrunner (to help with the heat build up I suffer with) and then I can go to 1:1 ratio direct drive, as the motor will hvae more torque than I have now. The cost of these motors on giant cod is as low as 25, I recently paid that for a 600 BB Turbo! :-))
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phillnjack

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2011, 01:40:37 am »

I too have tried to explain to some people about using 4 bladed cleaver props on submerged drive.
They realy can be very good,especialy when being used for very fast applications like fast planning offshore type boats.

This prop below is 4 bladed bronze prop from propshop, its a 5017e, now when i used it and done tests with the prop i was
amazed to find how different the cleavers are to normal race props.

Here is what happened with a 10cc ic engine on a 50inch offshore race boat.

If i used a 50mm 3 blade alloy prop with 1.5 ratio pitch the boat ran very good,but slightly slower top end than a
2 blade 50mm alloy prop with same pitch ratio.
Both props gave similar acceleration though,but the 2 blade had the edge.
Now then i tried the 50mm 4 blade cleaver with a ratio of 1.7 pitch and expected more top end performance with
a sacrifice to accelearation.
Top end was indeed a bit better than 2 blade, but the pull away was also dramatically improved !!!!!!!
so then i tried a 2 blade 5017, this was no good, too much pitch for the engine to get to top revs,and slower than all the others.
Now this didnt make sense, so tried the tests again this time on a different boat and results were very similar.
The cleaver was the best of all 4 props in every way, and not as much cavitation in airy water.

Here is my wonder prop in all its glory


it realy baffles me, as It shouldnt  do what it does



phill     
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #89 on: January 31, 2011, 11:08:57 pm »

only problem is phil the cost of the props means you cant have a load to test with, I am fortunate that a friend has a selection all 4 mm hence getting a 5mm shaft with 4mm thread so we can test. After seing the success of changing the fireboat to a cleaver, I am looking forward to doing the tests, after that a new motor! the one in the boat has had a hard year :}   
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phillnjack

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #90 on: February 01, 2011, 12:11:51 pm »

That motor might of had a hard year ,but it still seems very good to me.

can you not just put new bearings in the motor and use it direct drive on something else ?

I think this is definitely the best performing huntsman ive seen on electric by a long way.
I used to have a 46 huntsman with ic engine, great performance and they do look good from front and back
when up on the plane.
But to see your boat getting performance a like an overpowered ic engine is brilliant.

if another boat was exactly the same as yours it would require a 10cc to catch it,but i think your getting a
better pull away than a ic to be honest.
The boat is fantastic, and i think your on the point of no return, it cannot possibly get much better  :-))

How long can the boat run on a single charge ?



phill :-)
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ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #91 on: February 01, 2011, 12:26:35 pm »


But to see your boat getting performance a like an overpowered ic engine is brilliant.

if another boat was exactly the same as yours it would require a 10cc to catch it,but i think your getting a
better pull away than a ic to be honest.

phill :-)

Hey Red, my 10cc (Irvine) Huntsman (35") is still ready to have a race at Gautby, when I come out of Winter hibernation  ok2  (as long as the race is at least 20 minutes long and no pit stops  :embarrassed: )

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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #92 on: February 01, 2011, 11:32:53 pm »

ha ha I was dreading you turning up Ghosty!"! :-)

To answer Phil also (thanks for kind comments) the gears used (MFA) are not very expensive, so initially we had 2.5:1, which gave very fast acceleration, but the esc sometimes went into "safe mode" not allowing full throttle for the first few seconds. The setting can be changed, but on the "very fast" setting, castle creations waive the warranty :} The fast acceleration is great for the 2 small local lakes I test on. run time was embarrassing, wait for it........10 mins flat out :} :}, but boy are you sweaty and shaky after 10 mins on a small lake!
I have tried 3:1, thinking for the bigger lakes slower acceleration, faster top speed, its easy to change the gears as the prop one stays the same, its the motor one that comes off, but the belt needs changing also as the length now differs. Didn't really see much improvement in speed, although I didn't have any reliable test equipment then. The optimum seems to be 2:1, but I am convinced the motor has more to give, still fast acceleration, but I think it will go faster top speed if I can feed the throttle in slowerand maybe back on 3:1.
For now, its the props, we did briefly try a massive 60mm brass prop, similar to a cleaver, I think it was a "steamer" but it scared the life out of me at Gautby (big lake) as it nearly turned over with torque roll, I lost a vent thats how far over it went (hooligan!)

Run time at present a whopping 15 mins  :embarrassed: unless I throttle back, but my left thumb will not do that, flat out or stop is all it knows!

Ghost, 20 Min's!!!!, I would be fun though, I was by Gautby a few times over the last few weeks, the thing that worries me is where did the shopping trolleys go when it was frozen over, I bet they are not that far under the water level, that would be a painful experience if we hit them,  :embarrassed:
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phillnjack

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #93 on: February 01, 2011, 11:50:14 pm »

I think 10cc irvine and 35 inch huntsman versus this fast electric could throw up a few suprises.
Both are well over powered, and the outcome could go either way if there is a few twist and turns are involved.

In a drag race i would put money on the electric if the distance was only 100 yards.

The irvine would beat it over 200, but i think the electric could have the edge for the first 100.

Be real good fun to watch.


phill
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #94 on: February 03, 2011, 12:27:24 am »

well the motor gear is back (thanks HS93!!) he has modified it to stop me stripping the thread, changed the 2 3mm grub screws to 4 4mm ones!!,

so Ghosty, Ill take you on!, but I intend to use James Bonds Tactics, see 3.40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0-yjdFxT9U

have you got flame proof paint?? :}
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #95 on: February 03, 2011, 01:45:47 am »

well the motor gear is back (thanks HS93!!) he has modified it to stop me stripping the thread, changed the 2 3mm grub screws to 4 4mm ones!!,

so Ghosty, Ill take you on!, but I intend to use James Bonds Tactics, see 3.40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0-yjdFxT9U

have you got flame proof paint?? :}

not watching again, try 4 ba grubscrews.

peter
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red181

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2011, 07:17:16 pm »

well it stretched its legs a week or so ago, on a really large lake. I have been doing a lot of testing with an onboard data logger made by eagle tree, with gps speed, amps, volts, and much more info available, which is downloaded to the pc and shows in real time or graphs what is going on, I love meddling!

Anyway, this was the last run with this setup, and gps speed was 21.75mph, which looks really fast on the water. However, brushless technology (and prices) have changed considerably in the last 18 months, and whilst this setup was good then, I think its wrong now, so have just acquired a much lower kv outrunner off ebay. Outrunner to aid cooling, and kv dropping from 1620 to 800, this will allow me to change the gear ratio close to 1:1 almost direct drive, which should give far more torque enabling a larger prop, cooler running, and hopefully more speed and a slightly longer run time as amp draw will be less.

If it fails, then its back to square one! :-)
enjoy! its a good video from the boat, taken at St Helens model boat club lake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1R4XXeUWC8
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ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #97 on: May 29, 2011, 09:29:51 am »

Hi Red and all :)

Glad to see you are still having fun tinkering with yours :)

I have a bit of a problem :(

In Feb we moved away from the hustle and noise of central Chester and now live in a very nice village in the country called Malpas.

The problem is I can find nowhere near here to use my Huntsman :(

Birkenhead is now over 35 miles away :(

End result is I have not had it on any water since last autumn :(

I have even thought that I ought to sell it as it is a shame for it to be just sitting on a shelf in the spare room :(

p.s. there is one for sale right now on e bay look for item number = 300559003217
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cliff2903

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #98 on: May 29, 2011, 12:22:40 pm »

Gresford Flash ( next to the Pant Yr Ochain) less than 13 miles away, a lovely place and a nice group of chaps. the Wrexham model engineering society have their 5" gauge track next door  :-))

http://rogersonhome.co.uk/index_files/Page331.htm
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ghost123uk

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Re: Complete Huntsman 28 Brushless build, with tears & Laughter!
« Reply #99 on: May 29, 2011, 02:51:55 pm »

Gresford Flash ( next to the Pant Yr Ochain) less than 13 miles away, a lovely place and a nice group of chaps. the Wrexham model engineering society have their 5" gauge track next door  :-))

http://rogersonhome.co.uk/index_files/Page331.htm

That is great news Cliff and BIG thanks for letting me know !

I will check that out  :)
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