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Author Topic: A Beginners Guide to Steam  (Read 74638 times)

wrongtimeben

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2012, 03:50:30 PM »

Thanks george.

I was up late last night reading k n harris' work.  His engines book is, finally helping me piece together the puzzle of slide valve design.  People keep telling me to build an oscillator first, but i really dont want to. 

Regards will be sent to Jerry. I'll have word with Alice and get her to convince him to help me.

Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

Thanks again.

Ben
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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2012, 04:57:30 PM »

Quote
Could i also ask, is it possible for a single cylinder double acting recip. engine to be self starting, with valve gear?

 Not repeatedly, a Barring device is required. For reliability, you need a twin double acting with cranks at 90deg. to each other.

  Regards   Ian.
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wrongtimeben

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2012, 05:53:52 PM »

Thanks Ian,

A twin it is.  Although i do have a drysuit that could be donned for swimming retrievals.

By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft.  have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it.  do people do such things for model boats?

Ben
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ooyah/2

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2012, 08:41:04 PM »

By barring device i'm assuming you mean for rotating the crankshaft.  have experienced a ratchet type on a v12 medium speed diesel genset. i didn't like it.  do people do such things for model boats?

Ben
[/quote]

Ben,

People have come up with all sorts of Heath Robinson devices, myself included, to make single cylinder engines reversible and self starting with a medium amount of success.
Best way without a doubt is a twin cylinder, either slide valve or piston valve.

Patternmaker has a thread on building  a boiler ( http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=28450.0 ) in the steam section , also not so long ago in the steam section Building a Stuart V twin and boiler, this will give you some ideas on boiler building.(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?board=92.0

Do you have access to machinery, lathe or mill ?

Can I suggest that you ask the moderator to shift this thread to Steam.

George.
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wrongtimeben

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2012, 09:56:40 PM »

Thanks george,

i'll have a look at those posts.

Yes, i have a small lathe, which will soon be equipped with vertical slide. I like to overcome challenges!

Also, will act on your suggestion and try to get thread/posts moved.

Many thanks,

Ben.
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ooyah/2

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2012, 11:33:38 PM »

Ben,
 Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.
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TheLongBuild

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2012, 11:39:49 PM »

Ben,
 Go to the bottom R.H. side of the page REPORT TO MODERATOR click on it and just ask to have your thread moved Steam..

Easy Peasy.
George.
You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.

ooyah/2

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2012, 09:24:14 AM »

You can not report your own thread using that method, generally a Pm to a Mod will sort it if it was a real issue.

How then do you contact the Moderator to move the Thread ?
George.
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2012, 11:07:01 AM »


Just click on the name od Moderator and send a private mail.

it IS your club, after all.     :-))

ken

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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2012, 01:35:29 PM »

One point that never ceases to amaze is that by using a single acting single cylinder engine, be it oscillator/slide or piston valve and adding a V/P propeller, forward/reverse and all points in between are available using a constant revving engine.  %% so we then get back to a simple installation. Whilst some of the bling queens (Chill George  :-)) )seen at exhibitions and at the pondside could frighten the beginner off, you don't need to spend a mint to enjoy burnin yer fingies.  O0

  Regards   Ian.
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patternmaker

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #135 on: May 17, 2012, 04:07:43 PM »

Who are the so called bling queens Ian ?

Mick
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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #136 on: May 17, 2012, 05:14:14 PM »

No Mick, this is a beginners guide to steam.  O0 and no, I don't want a free pen.

  Regards  Ian.
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TUGMAN DAVE

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #137 on: September 29, 2014, 05:38:16 PM »

Hi,
   Can anyone offer advice?.I need to have my steam boiler tested which is now 1yr old and cannot locate any organization to pressure test and certificate it.I have asked at my local model club but have drawn a blank,i would hate to have to change to electric.
 :((
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boneash

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #138 on: September 29, 2014, 08:03:44 PM »

Horribly Dave you are unlikely to get a certificate and therefore insurance for public use. the general rule appears to be that only boilers built by a CE boiler firm can be certified. That is the reason Flashtwo and others have headed to the once thro or flash boiler, this avoids the rules as it doesn't store energy.
Even in modern power stations, my lads who were able to carry out repairs to 660 mega watt steam boilers were unable to get certification of their model boilers for traction engines, boats etc.
AND the accident rate of model steam compared with chip pans doesn't hold that there is an excessive risk!!
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TUGMAN DAVE

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #139 on: September 29, 2014, 08:19:30 PM »

Sorry boneash,
the boiler was made by John Hemmens Steam Engineer for which I have a boiler test certificate until 26.10.2014,as this was manufactured a professional company will this make a difference in getting a test certificate.
 
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boneash

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #140 on: September 29, 2014, 08:21:46 PM »

That should not be a problem then....at the right club!!

Good luck
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hammer

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #141 on: September 29, 2014, 09:25:30 PM »

It is possible to get a none CE boiler certificated it is just very difficult. Before starting find a club with a inspector and join it. Show the inspector your calculations & the materials you intend to use. He will take your boiler seriously, even though our boat boilers are lower pressure & smaller than loco boilers, the usual in a model engineering club.  The inspector may want to see the boiler during construction. Then if the test is passed you will get a certificate.
Google for model engineering clubs in your area there must be a 7,5,or3.5 rail track somewhere near. Your boiler should require a steam test only at 1 year old.
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TUGMAN DAVE

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2014, 02:23:44 PM »

Many thanks,will contact local Model Engineering Club. :-)
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Geoff

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #143 on: October 01, 2014, 02:07:24 PM »

There seems to be the same old issues of a boiler certificate being required. My understanding is that under the 3 bar litre rule if a boiler capacity is under that figure (working pressure in bars x capacity in litres) than a test certificate is not required for public use. Whether this is wise is a different kettle of fish, but to summarise:
 
1) If under 3 bar litres you can use it on a public pond. A certificate is not legally required. The 3 bar litre rule is european law and its actually illegal to impose other laws but see below.
 
2) If you join a model club/engineering club then you have to obey their rules and requirements which means you will doubtless need a test certificate to qualify for their insurance scheme
 
3) Curiously this means as a club member sailing on a public park you need a test certificate but if sailing on the same water (at the same time) in a private capacity you do not.
 
4) If you want to sail at an MPBA event then a certificate is typically required
 
5) If you want to sail at a private event it depends on the organisers whether they want a certificate or not. Its their call.
 
6) Check your household insurance as mine covers me for accidents arising out of my hobbies which includes model boats and planes under a certain size with no restrictions. If it's not excluded it is covered and there is case law on this.
 
7) Some clubs over complicate the issue and indeed want a sample of the boiler material and to be involved in seeing it under construction. This is overkill and just not required.
 
8) For example we had a visit some years ago from a guy at an engineering club and he stated this to the extent he would refuse to test a Cheddar boiler as he did not have a sample of the copper it was made from and anyway as it was commercially built for profit it probably wasn't very good!!! Utter rubbish. As a club we just ignored it and got on with our modelling.
 
9) As this thread is meant for beginners lets try not to put them off steam by making it too complicated.
 
10) As above whether this is wise is irrelevant, the law is the law
 
 
I shall now await the tirad of abuse!!
 
Just enjoy the hobby and use your common sense. In ten years of steam I have never been asked for a certificate (I do have one by the way but that was because I wanted to sail an an event that required it).
 
Enjoy
 
Geoff
 
 
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sparkey

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #144 on: October 01, 2014, 04:24:17 PM »

 <*< <*< Does that mean that the certificate issues by the company that made the boiler only lasts for one year and after that it needs retesting,seems a bit over the top as some of the steam guys only use their boats about 4 times a year, as a person who is thinking of spending about a 1000 on a boiler and engine set up for a steam launch I want to build,all this a bit of a put off and I am beginning  to wonder is it worth all the hassle,Ray. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
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Geoff

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2014, 04:29:58 PM »

I believe, but others do correct me if I am wrong, but with a new boiler the certificate is valid for 2 years from the date of purchase. This is because a new boiler is typically tested to twice its working pressure.
 
Thereafter the boiler should typically be tested annually to 1.5 times is working pressure, subject otherwise to the above discussion.
 
There are actually two tests done:
 
1) Hydraulic pressure test to ensure the boiler is not leaking
 
2) Steam test to ensure that with maximum burner input the safety valve lifts at the working pressure and then is sufficiently "exhausting" to ensure a drop/no further increase in the boiler pressure. Basically that the safety valve is big enough for the job.
 
 
Regards
 
Geoff
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TUGMAN DAVE

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2014, 05:00:15 PM »

I have been in touch with John Hemmens who manufactured my Ribbersdale Boiler and iam advised that the boiler has a capacity of 0.5 litres and a working pressure of 5.3 bar,this makes it 2.65 bar litres which is under 3.0 bar litres and will not require a Hydraulic Test.
As i have used the boiler during within the twelve months since it was purchased i am advised to have it tested under steam so i can continue to sail on a public lake.
My problem is finding an inspector who will test it,i am willing to pay a fee. :-)
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Geoff

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #147 on: October 01, 2014, 05:25:39 PM »

I think the three bar litre rule applies to both the boiler pressure test and the steam test so no actual issues in sailing on a public pond.
 
Albeit wise to check the safety valve works regularly for obvious reasons
 
G
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Geoff

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #148 on: October 01, 2014, 05:26:45 PM »

What part of the UK do you live in as our club can do the testing but it may not be viable if you are outside Essex
 
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TUGMAN DAVE

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #149 on: October 01, 2014, 06:48:48 PM »

I live in Waltham Abbey Essex and am willing to travel.
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