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Author Topic: Legal Aerokits plans?  (Read 36206 times)

HS93 (RIP)

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dodgy geezer

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2010, 02:59:40 pm »

They look pretty pricey for just the plans....
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Netleyned

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2010, 05:17:41 pm »

Could build one of yours for the price of the plans

Ned :-X :-X
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HS93 (RIP)

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2010, 06:10:41 pm »

the one in the advert is £12.50 the number of times people come on hear asking for decent aerokits plans I am shore some one will buy them, they are selling the FREE modelboats swordsman plan on flea bay for £6.50. if there are to dear for you don't buy them. but remember these are the original plans not the A4 coppies that are normally sold on flea bay and they compare with the ones sold on the model boats store.

Peter
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kiwi

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2010, 08:25:49 pm »

Hi All,
In my humble opinion, its very good that Lesro have at last made the plans available. And the prices are not over the top.
Even though I have been a modeller off and on for more than 50 years, it still amazes me that people will not pay anything like what it costs to actually produce a plan. My daytime job is as a professional draughtman, and as my hobby I produce my own plans of boats I wish to model, or for boats other modellers would like and have requested.
To print one of my own plans (of a comparable size to the Aerokits) at the local print shop costs me in the order of 8 pounds. And as I never fold drawings, your looking at another pound for a mailing tube and ends. Then postage is on top of that.
Some of my drawings have cost me in excess of ten thousand pounds. And yes 10,000 is correct, and includes all research costs and time actually drawing. So there is no way I can ever recover even a fraction of any money's spent. Even the simple plans for my footy scow cost in excess of 1000 pounds of my time to draw up.
So, if you can't allow for around 10% of the actual expenditure in building your model for a decent well researched set of plans, then its your choice, and if you choose the cheepskate path, don't then complain to all and sundry, and be disappointed with the resulting model, all because the information you started with was inadequite.
In this instance Lesro (and I have no connection with them at all), are in business, and as such have to make a profit to survive. There prices as I've already stated are reasonable, and if you choose to want to build an Aerokits replica, then support them, or the drawings may once again be withdrawn. Then we are back to square one.
I have actually drawn 2 sets of the Aerokits boat models plans, but never used them or passed them on to anyone else, even though I've been tempted to. Why may you ask, because even though I would have made them available to everyone for free, I knew that the originals still existed, and that the company which owned them, where still actively in business. And having had some of my own designs and drawings ripped off by others, do not feel inclined to do the same.
Well that's my two bob's worth, and thanks HS93 for your comments which prompted myself to say a bit in support
cheers
kiwi
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Colin Bishop

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2010, 08:35:45 pm »

It would be interesting to see what Jotika think of this thread as they told me that they had bought the rights to Aerokits some while back. Of course it may not have been exclusive and maybe it was the rights to remanufacture the kits as they have done with the Sea Queen.

No doubt it will all come out in the wash.

Colin
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BlueWotsit

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2010, 09:51:27 pm »

Whilst all very interesting - why is this all posted and being discussed on the Sales Forum - surely it should be on the Seen on Ebay one ?   :police:
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dodgy geezer

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2010, 10:01:53 pm »

Could build one of yours for the price of the plans

Ned :-X :-X

Could build several. In fact, could build the whole range for the cost of the Sea Queen plan. I suspect you could build a Sea Queen for the cost of the plan - it's 20% of the total price of the Jotika kit, which includes all materials, fittings, a motor and, of course, the plans...

People can charge whatever the market can bear, of course. I was unhappy that these plans (which would be an ideal next step on from the EeZeBilts) seem to be priced for the older, richer hobbyist, rather that the less flush younger kids who, as you know, I would like to encourage to get involved with actually making boats rather than just buying them....
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Colin Bishop

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2010, 10:05:42 pm »

Quote
rather that the less flush younger kids who, as you know, I would like to encourage to get involved with actually making boats rather than just buying them....

You mean there are actually some left? I thought Play Stations ruled supreme these days.
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dodgy geezer

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Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2010, 10:34:54 pm »

You mean there are actually some left? I thought Play Stations ruled supreme these days.

There were none left. That's what makes the battle so interesting. However, I was considerably heartened by a young Aussie, in this clip which you have probably seen... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAHJbJieV0o&feature=fvsr

Here is his latest exploit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjmRo4VziRg

 
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vintagent

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2010, 04:28:31 pm »

8 pounds for a print???  Tosh. Find another printer. I just paid £3 for an architectural firm's receptionist to do me a copy of the Dumas Vinyard and I also got a copy of the Aerokits Crash tender.  Yaboo to copyright!

£10,000 to do a drawing????  You must be either very slow or very greedy.
I am also a draughtsman and we didn't charge that for a whole manual for Fords.  I know as I was responsible for the time sheets.

Come off it.You don't charge yourself for a drawing that's part of your hobby!!
Get real. 
It's supposed to be a pleasure.  Good God, if I charged your rates for a drawing every time I made a model for someone I'd have gone broke donkey's years ago.

And don't give me all that dross about "correct pricing" that people do sometimes.  I brought up a family of five, three dogs and a big house on my modelmkaing without chucking bills for 10,000 pounds for a stupid plan at the client!  I used to do them while the family were watching the box, so I wasn't stuck outside in the workshop.

Vintagent
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kiwi

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2010, 07:38:48 pm »

Manuals for Fords, that makes you a technical illustrator then. An no I don't live in the UK, and in the real world I inhabit that is what it has cost me to produce a full set of working drawings, sufficient to reconstruct a full size replica, down to the last rivet and bolt, for an 1864 80 foot long stern paddle steamer. Including engines and boiler. And that's at my in-hand hourly rate, not my company charge out rate. To be modelled at 1/10th scale.
Time on the board, is only a part of the cost, add in research in two countries to get the information and costs involved to find & access that information, and it soon mounts up.
That is one extreme and if you read the posting in its entirety, then it is all self explanatory. Given all the information dumped on my desk, and then to produce a drawing to build a wooden model from, yes the cost is a lot less.
As we live at extreme ends of the living, work & modelling world, I have my opinions and experience, you have yours, the difference being that I usually respect others opinions and value their input.
cheers
kiwi
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2010, 10:51:40 pm »

There were none left. That's what makes the battle so interesting. However, I was considerably heartened by a young Aussie, in this clip which you have probably seen... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAHJbJieV0o&feature=fvsr

Here is his latest exploit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjmRo4VziRg

 

Not bad really liked the innovative launching mechanism  O0 O0 O0
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The long Build

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2010, 11:05:45 pm »

It would be interesting to see what Jotika think of this thread as they told me that they had bought the rights to Aerokits some while back. Of course it may not have been exclusive and maybe it was the rights to remanufacture the kits as they have done with the Sea Queen.

No doubt it will all come out in the wash.

Colin

Question .. Is it actualy Lesro or just someone selling under their name , looking at some of the earlier Items sold before making the listings private..?
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Peter Fitness

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2010, 11:22:22 pm »

8 pounds for a print???  Tosh. Find another printer.

It costs around A$10 to A$12 per sheet ( 5 to 6 pounds) to have plans printed here, at any print shop capable of printing large sheets. As many plans are on more than one sheet, the cost soon mounts up.

Peter.
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Circlip

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2010, 11:40:18 am »

One of the problems highlighted by Vint is doing your own thing in areas thus breaking the link. The ad says "Designed by Les Rowell"

  First question is, did Les infact design the Aerokits range? Is there any initials or Sig. on the original Aerokits plans? ( I ask this, as an ex Draughty, as we're all vain Burgers and leave some trace of originality on our drawings, even works ones).

 Second, is that if the plans have been re-drawn to include bulkhead sections, which the originals never had, does this get round the "Copyright" rules??

  As far as printing costs are concerned, what does FLJ sell his own Fairey for in an attemt to keep the B*****d on flee at bay? (You need to start thinking about Jan. FLJ, 20% theivery tax)

  Regards  Ian.
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vintagent

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2010, 09:39:38 pm »

Kiwi, you say you do drawings as  a hobby and one of your drawings cost YOU 10,000pounds. That ain't what you do for work or what you charge out at.  It's for YOU.  Don't bill yourself, do you?

What you do at work and how much it costs doesn't matter here. Your post expressly said HOBBY and MY , strongly implying that apert from work you did expensively valued drawings as a hobby.
If I've read that wrong, I apologise, but if I have I'd like you to explain where.

You see, some of us are a bit quick.  I can post pictures on here of a Maserati Birdcage chassis I made in 1/12th scale with working throttle mechanism and working steering and a working gear selector which I did including measuring, photographing, drawing in many colours because of its complexity, jig building and making in soldered brass and nickel silver...in TEN days. pictures on the 'Net and sold to a French gentlemanbefore the month was out.  Ergo family ate that month!

So, you'll forgive me for being suspicious of claims like yours.  Gerald Wingrove was another one who made outrageous claims for drawing time and research.  It just infuriates me, because the likes of magazines and newspapers believe it all.

I pay £3 per A1 print on a modern machine used for architectural plans.  For more than 5, I get them for £2-50 ea.

Vintagent.
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bilzin

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2010, 09:58:00 pm »

There were none left. That's what makes the battle so interesting. However, I was considerably heartened by a young Aussie, in this clip which you have probably seen... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAHJbJieV0o&feature=fvsr

Here is his latest exploit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjmRo4VziRg

 

Thought Kids like that were a thing of the past....no hoody...no jeans at half mast...no bull Terrier...no cider....just what is the world coming to ?
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toesupwa

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2010, 02:17:24 am »

Kiwi, you say you do drawings as  a hobby and one of your drawings cost YOU 10,000pounds. That ain't what you do for work or what you charge out at.  It's for YOU.  Don't bill yourself, do you?


No, I dont bill myself for doing my own drawings...

I do my own drawings for certain projects on Autocad (as well as the old method of paper and pencil!) and I've just looked up how long I've spent on my MHT.. Autocad can log this for you...

Would you believe I've spent 1649 hours, 59 minutes on the drawings...

If i was to sell those drawings i would certainly want to recoup some of that 'time' investment... shall we say $50 per hour?...
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toesupwa

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2010, 02:18:21 am »


You see, some of us are a bit quick.  I can post pictures on here of a Maserati Birdcage chassis I made in 1/12th scale with working throttle mechanism and working steering and a working gear selector which I did including measuring, photographing, drawing in many colours because of its complexity, jig building and making in soldered brass and nickel silver...in TEN days. pictures on the 'Net and sold to a French gentlemanbefore the month was out

Would LOVE to see some pic's of that!
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craig_c

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2010, 06:01:50 am »

OK guys, some folks seem to have forgotten a prime rule of economics...

The Value of an item is what someone else will PAY FOR IT, not the inflated price tag you or the tax assessor want to stick on it.

Kiwi may think his plan is worth 10k, but in reality, it's only worth what John Q. Interested is willing to open his wallet and dig out.  And if that's only 10, then Kiwi's ego takes a hell of a whack!

That's why I expect to see more and more plans at the hobby level being digital and being sized for a home printer.  Sure, you end up with a stack of letter sixe or better tabloid sized images, but getting large scale prints / sheets done is going to become prohibitive and if the companies can't adjust to the market... then they go the way of a lot of camera companies over the last 20 years, the scrap heap.
  
And one thing is for sure as well, if they go to CDs, the customer will expect a whole lot more for their money if it is on CD since you have all that extra storage room.  Like, instructions, documentation , photos etc.

Of course the other thing is true, if you manage to keep the price high as you please, pirates WILL bootleg and undercut you, even at the onesie-twosie level between boating buddies down by the lake, it's going to happen.  

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tigertiger

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 06:50:03 am »

Because this thread has now descended into a clash of personalities, people are being quoted out of context and some of these arguments are now getting silly.

Kiwi did not say his plan was worth 10k.
He said it cost 10k to produce, remember that cost is not measured in just $/£ spent.

He did not say he expected to get the money back either.


I think what has been suggested is the following.
If you run a business you try to re-coup costs by adding them to the unit price of the item sold.
If the research/initial set up cost is $10000
If you expect to sell 2000 units during the life of the product, then you are looking to add $5 per unit to the price.
That is sensible.

For someone else to say the plans cost less to produce (copy/print) is missing the point.

It is also worth remembering that there are a number of members on this forum who earn at least a part of their living from designing plans, accessories, and/or products, including those for model boats.

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ZZ56

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 06:52:09 am »

Of course the other thing is true, if you manage to keep the price high as you please, pirates WILL bootleg and undercut you, even at the onesie-twosie level between boating buddies down by the lake, it's going to happen.  

Pirates will bootleg you no matter what your price is.  I know a band who gives away much of each album they make freely on the web, and yet you still find those songs up for download elsewhere.  You can charge 30 cents for a plan and someone will borrow it from a friend, copy it, and send it off because 'well it's only 30 cents worth of infringement" If you want to keep people from pirating stuff, do exactly as this company does.  Sell high, keep things physical and too large for easy scanning and when someone does go to the trouble of buying it, they won't' be in the mood to share it.  You might choke your business to death with unreasonable prices but you'll never be ripped off by bootleggers.

Low level sharing is fine but lets not kid ourselves:  we're cheap.  You're cheap, I'm cheap... what we are looking for here is a way to get some hull lines without paying much money.  Kids are not going to put down their lushly-rendered videogames to build a boat because the plans were free, and those who WOULD build one definitely have the spare cash to afford a set of plans.

For the record I think a lot of model plans are terribly overpriced.  When a one-man archive is willing to print me six-foot long drawings from the shipyard originals for only twenty bucks per sheet, and you want three times that for one sheet for a much smaller boat... you wrong in da head, mang.
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kiwi

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 07:09:10 am »

Thanks Tiger Tiger.
I made my comment, you explained it well. End of story.
cheers
kiwi

 :-))
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craig_c

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Re: Legal Aerokits plans?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2010, 08:07:04 am »

You miss my points,

The Value of an item is what someone else will PAY FOR IT, never what a seller thinks it's worth.  

This applies whither it is plans for a model boat, a diamond ring or Mel Gibson's house.

If a seller insists on a price higher than most people are willing to pay, he doesn't sell his product and sooner or later closes up shop.

The other thing that may happen is, a competitor may come along and sell a similar product, or possibly even a copy of it, at a lower cost.

Normally this might be considered piracy, but if a large business with a large enough legal team does it, it's merely competition.
A number have included (unofficially) it as part of their business models.  It might be national policy in a couple of cases.

Quote
Sell high, keep things physical and too large for easy scanning and when someone does go to the trouble of buying it, they won't' be in the mood to share it.  
Having worked in the tech and in the imaging industries, I know this to be a fallacy.  Even in the specific case of large drawings, there are plenty of ways to image them, most within the means of a home hobbyist with a bit of time on his hands and an itch to speared the cost out over there of four buddies.    

Understand, I am not defending copyright or patent piracy, I have been the victim of infringers myself, I am just saying that it cannot be stopped, or at least not stopped at a price our societies would be willing to pay.  Landing Strip One would be a utopia, not a dystopia if we went that route.

High prices, encourage bootlegging.  Legal tariffs or prohibitions create opportunities for bootlegging.  

Quote
It is also worth remembering that there are a number of members on this forum who earn at least a part of their living from designing plans, accessories, and/or products, including those for model boat
Very true, and those people need to be encouraged and supported as much as can we in what they do can by buying their products, but it still does not mean they are excused from following economic law.  Like gravity, laws of value cannot be escaped.

Much of what we took for granted under the old economic model depended on the technology to duplicate an item or product being very large and very expensive or the process being too time consuming.  "Tain't so any longer, and if you think it's been interesting up to this point, just wait until good, high resolution, 3D printers drop below $2000!  Then the cat is truly out of the bag.

Model boating will probably become more and more the province of the part-time / living room hobbyist-merchant-craftsman or the very large conglomerate with offshore manufacturing.   

And agreed we're cheap, except it's not that we're cheap, it's that, whither it is a dollar or a pound, the value of currency has been coming a lot tougher every year for the last 40 years or so and these days many of us have lost significant portions of our holdings.  A lot of folks who might have payed £12.50 / $19.20us for a plan are sure not going to do it now, and may never again.  Realities.    

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