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Author Topic: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?  (Read 840282 times)

colin-stevens

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #725 on: September 08, 2007, 06:54:03 AM »

go with rolf, its the way you would apply resin and cloth more or less. paint the inside with a slightly thined down mix, so it soaks into the wood, let it get tacky, then give it another coat, apply dry cloth and stipple it down with a dry brush. if need be you can give it another coat.
have fun
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #726 on: September 08, 2007, 07:19:54 AM »


I'm trying to stick as closely as possible to the instructions but this method seems to be a fools errand ....

mark_1984 - yes tried that but the gauze has no weight of stiffness at all and PVA is not 'sticky'!. It's like trying to decorate with toilet paper.

cbr900 - yes I bought some builders gauze (see below) and will try that next...... :-\

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #727 on: September 08, 2007, 08:59:27 AM »

Not  good is it :'(

I wonder if Amati have really thought this one through as in how customers will manage to do it right as I bet loads wont which then makes the task pointless!

I cant quite get my head around how they arrived at this method as being suitable for a model that is to hit the water, for one reason alone, they do not advise the use of waterproof PVA to apply the gauze!

So is there thinking that the use of standard PVA & gauze is simply to add strength rather than seal the inner of the hull??......because if there is a seal element required then they potentially have a major disaster on there hands!

I think this gauze n PVA advice from what is supposed to be one of the worlds largest wooden model boat manufacturers is naff, I cant undertand why they did not advise the use of resin as they expect customers to buy everything else to finish this model so why not advise something that is a tried n tested method instead of some hair brained idea that might mean ships sink!!

Martin -

Step 1 of issue 18 describes the Gauze & PVA method as "sealing the Hull with caulking", not a word on doing this with a waterproof PVA!
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kayem

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #728 on: September 08, 2007, 10:37:58 AM »

Not  good is it :'(

I wonder if Amati have really thought this one through as in how customers will manage to do it right as I bet loads wont which then makes the task pointless!



I think you're right about Amati not having thought this through, in fact it looks to me as if they're making quite a lot of it up as they go along. I suppose that Martin has to go along with what they advise, but if I were building one of these Amati Bismarcks that I'd paid for with my own money, I'd do quite a lot of things differently, especially sheathing the inside of the hull. Where it's accessible, I'd use neatly tailored squares of 300gm glass mat with  polyester resin stippled into it, if you wanted the best possible result, glass cloth and epoxy would be even better, but I have a minor allergy to epoxy so don't use the stuff except as an adhesive. It's where the sharp end of the hull isn't too accessible that problems start of course. What I'd do is use a syringe to inject a fairly generous quantity of resin into each hull compartment, taping over any gaps in the planking first to stop the stuff running through, then turn the hull every which way to make sure that it has got into every nook & cranny, and lastly use bits of kitchen towel held in tweezers to remove the excess if anything more than a small puddle looks like developing before the stuff cures. For obvious reasons, you can only do one compartment at a time with this method, you have to let one lot set before you pour any more wet stuff into the next area. Epoxy is a bit better than polyester for this, but you have to use the  runny stuff sold for laminating, it wouldn't work with epoxy adhesive. I have some planked hulls treated in this way with standard polyester laminating resin, glass reinforcement added only where it was reasonably easy to get at during construction, and they're as good as the day they were treated after 15 or more years of sailing in sea water.
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DickyD

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #729 on: September 08, 2007, 10:40:20 AM »

Martin might I suggest using this PVA . Have used it in 1:1 boat construction.

UniBond Super PVA Adhesive & Sealer
 
Safe & Simple to use, UniBond Super PVA Adhesive & Sealer is the toughest, fastest, strongest and longest lasting PVA you can buy.

 
 
Use UniBond Super PVA for
 
Bonding
Woodworking
Hobbies & Crafts
General Repair
Priming Old Porous or Dusty Surfaces
Priming Gloss Paint to Take Wallpaper
Stiffening Fabrics

 
 
Available in following sizes
 
250ml Tin
500ml Tin
1ltr Can
2.5ltr Can
4lt Jerry Can
5ltr Can

 
Apply one coat to wood. When tacky apply fabric then recoat with PVA. O0

http://www.makingdiyeasier.co.uk/unibond/pdf/pva.pdf
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #730 on: September 08, 2007, 10:45:27 AM »

The best bit is that it seems the outer of the hull planking is simply to be sealed by the paint, combine that with a non waterproof PVA on the inner hull and you have a model that wont be sailing for too long if it gets paint chips etc., even better is the mag dont advise the use of waterproof PVA for the build ::)

Maybe the model was never meant to be around for to long as the actual ship was not around for too long either ;D
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #731 on: September 08, 2007, 10:47:12 AM »

Dicky - is it waterproof??
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DickyD

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #732 on: September 08, 2007, 10:55:01 AM »

Dicky - is it waterproof??

Certainly is.
When it first came out many years ago my father was building a cabin cruiser and he glued several pieces of teak together and left them in a barrel of water for several days.
No way he could get them apart.
Also we used it all the time in the building industry. It can also be used for sealing concrete floors etc.
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #733 on: September 08, 2007, 10:59:54 AM »

Thanks for that O0

From B & Q I presume?

Have never used it, also like the idea of it being user friendly which is probably why Amati suggested the PVA method but sadly it dont seem to work as well as they thought it might :-\
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gribeauval

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #734 on: September 08, 2007, 01:13:38 PM »

I line all my hulls with waterprooof PVA, normally Unibond Super PVA, and cheap non-woven cleaning cloths (they act like glass fibre finishing mat). I even do the outside when adding a finishing layer of diagonal planks. As yet I have never had a leak in any hull! ;)

Mike
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anmo

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #735 on: September 08, 2007, 01:16:56 PM »

That's very nice work Mr Grib, very neat.
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #736 on: September 08, 2007, 05:01:51 PM »

A new one on me and very useful to know O0
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #737 on: September 09, 2007, 10:46:41 AM »

Martin

Re the issue 18 sealing of the hull with PVA & Gauze.

The crazy thing is that if you look at step 1 of issue 18, it does not advise to seal the very forward inner hull compartment of the bow, it shows at step 3 to start at the next compartment back.

We know why which is because access into the forward inner bow is ny impossible re sealing it as a result of the build/design, but what concerns me more is that they have simply side stepped it and do not suggest any method to seal the inner hull at the forward bow point, so as a result it is now likely many who are novices and know no better will not seal this part of the inner hull basically cos the mag does not tell you to do so!

It would have been better to make part 35 so it was removable so we could position the ribs rather than glueing it in place at issue 7, this would allow easier access to seal the back of the planking at the forward point of the Bow, then simply glue part 35 in place when done ;)

This has to be a major future concern as the Bow front with no inner sealing is then reliant on the outer paint job to stop water ingress into the planking/hull, this combined with those who have not used a waterproof PVA (the mag did not recommend it)) will no doubt lead to problems at some point and especially at the Bow where surely the model is most likely to get knocks & chips into the exterior paint??

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #738 on: September 09, 2007, 11:07:05 AM »

Using the cleaning cloths with resin is a novel idea. I used to do the same thing very successfully with nappy liner tissues when sheathing the outside of my hulls. When it cures the resin is the hardest part of the mix and much easier to rub down than the glass fibres you get in GRP tissues and it's perfectly strong enough. The cleaning cloths would seem to be a very good alternative.
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gerrybuilt

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #739 on: September 10, 2007, 12:06:32 AM »

Hi Martin,
Just thought I would share my experience of caulking with you, if you have n't already gone past that part yet.
 I cut pieces of gauze to shape and length. Place in position and hold firmly. Fill your brush with glue and place gently onto gauze. Let the glue flow on to the gauze. Don't try to spread the glue , you will only displace the gauze. Just keep filling your brush with glue and soak the gauze. Move the brush down and away for the next brushful, not straight off the surface of the gauze, otherwise it will displace. Once you have completely swamped and soaked the gauze it wont move much and you can spread the glue evenly,  and then make any adjustments to the position of same.

I hope this is of use to you.

P.S. How do I get emoticons to go where I want them?
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #740 on: September 10, 2007, 01:07:37 PM »

Hi Gerrybuilt,

That was the method I did try but the Gause just has no substance and lifts off with the brush.... it's lighter than tissue paper!  :P
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cbr900

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #741 on: September 10, 2007, 01:32:45 PM »

Thats the big advantage of the plasteres tape cut it to shape and stick it in then seal with the w/pva jobs done..........


Roy
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #742 on: September 10, 2007, 01:54:48 PM »

Martin

It seems there is yet another ship partwork series on sale, another Titanic at 120 issues long and supposidly this time with lighting.
The info said it was from Hachette but so far can't find any evidence of this version neither on TV on sale or around the net other than there old Titanic series which was 100 issues long.

It must exist as the guy says he has bought issue 1 at 1, issue 2 costs 2.99 and the regular price is 5, wonder if it is some kind of a test?
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #743 on: September 10, 2007, 03:28:16 PM »

I hear the first Titanic series made into a nice boat once ballasted correctly.


I think I'll have a go with the Scrim Tape this week with waterproof PVA.
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #744 on: September 10, 2007, 03:53:01 PM »

Are you sure it's not the Mantua version you are talking about as the Amati version was static display model, it got well slated for its accuracy & build problems, something about some if its detail having been copied from its sister ship rather than it being from the Titanic!

Titanic as an RC model is renound for its stabilty problems!

Not sure if this new version version is Static, RC or both,  but either way as its likely to be a re-hash of the old Amati Titanic, I for one will most definately be leaving this new venture well alone if it goes on general release as heard & read too many bad vibes about the old Amati version :-\
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #745 on: September 10, 2007, 04:02:28 PM »

Have you thought about a watered down coat over the scrim just to hold it, 50/50 with water . when dry give it the coat to seal/stiffen  it.

Peter
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #746 on: September 10, 2007, 04:52:51 PM »

Yes, that's the way I think I'll do it.
I might even put two layers of scrim if required.

.... that bow section, they're having a laugh!


Have you thought about a watered down coat over the scrim just to hold it, 50/50 with water . when dry give it the coat to seal/stiffen  it.

Peter
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #747 on: September 10, 2007, 05:49:24 PM »

And the bow extremity is where the concern lies as no info in the mag re sealing it, the only way is via any inititaive you come up with yourself otherwise this part will remain unsealed and at risk ;)
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #748 on: September 10, 2007, 06:02:33 PM »

Martin can you not epoxy resin the bow section with a couple of thinned down coats. You know, swill it about a bit. :-\
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Peterm

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #749 on: September 10, 2007, 06:27:07 PM »

What I have done with similar problems in the past is to pour resin into the void by means of some 3/4 inch plastic piping, then as suggested, swill it around a bit.   Pete M
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