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Author Topic: Costa Concordia  (Read 95733 times)

DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2012, 06:09:14 PM »

I think there has to be a redesign of the outhaul for the davits for the boats , perhaps an emergency HP air system ( bottles permanently attached in a box beside the davits ) that can be used to force the boat out over the side so they can at least get it into the water

As for these ships in general , well I would never have set foot on one before now and never ever would even if I could afford to. I consider them to be death traps of seriously poor design. Most have huge shopping spaces up to 6 decks high without any transverse bulkhead to prevent catastrophic flooding or to help prevent rapid spread of fire , no I think ships like these should be banned from the sea before we see a huge disaster
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Davie Tait,
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2012, 06:21:24 PM »

Quote
Some boats can be seen hanging down the side of the boat

Just liferafts I think. All the port side boats seem to have got away. On modern cruise ships the boats are carried relatively low on the hull to enable them to cope with a degree of listing. maybe the problem was the starboard side where the degree of sinkage, coupled with the list, brought the embarkation deck rapidly into the sea, which is why people apparently jumped over the side. As said previously, these ships do not feature longitudinal bulkheads to try and ensure that the ship settles on an even keel if the hull is breached. The design should give adequate stability and will have been extensively tank tested so it is extraordinary that the ship capsized unless, as suggested above, it was perched on the side of a reef and as it sank it just rolled over as the port side was supported anbd the starboard side not. The fact that it didn't keel right over for some hours suggests this might be the case. In these situations Sod's law applies with a vengeance, if it can go wrong, it will!

Colin
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dave301bounty

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2012, 07:47:41 PM »

in someones pics they have put on here ,,there is a few ,and one in particular brings a theme to mind ,,the pic were the ship is near the rocks ,two guys are lookin, at it    what are the saying ? ?   get the builder ,,,who designed this  are we insured ,,,
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2012, 08:04:07 PM »

The Captain abandoned ship at 2300 when passengers were still being pulled off her at 0300 , he's under arrest for abandoning ship whilst passengers were still in danger and for manslaughter , the 1st officer has also been arrested

that just on SKY news just now
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Davie Tait,
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Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2012, 08:34:17 PM »

All davits must works without ship power, if they are not gravity one they use charged pneumatic bottles - Following the comment from a french passagers who was close to maritime as he was talking with right maritime words : because of the list the davit cables where too short and the life boat stopped some meters over the water, passager have to jump !!  {:-{ something wrong !

 
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Bryan Young

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2012, 08:48:52 PM »

Pre-emting the causes of this disaster is wrong....although I can appreciate why.
My main causes for concern is the fact that she was a new (and very large) ship. Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to prevent such a catastrophe ever happening.
I'm in accord with Xtian here, we both have knowledge of damage control...but this event seems to go against what would be expected. Ship lying on one side with the damaged side above water. Rather an odd situation. You'd expect it to be the other way around. But all of that will come out in whatever process of law occurs.
So no more speculation.
What does concern me is the notion that 4,000 plus people on board one ship can ever be really secure. I spent many years as a seaman officer triying to train non-seamen crew members in emergency procedures...many fell on deaf ears. In fact it was all treated as a bit of a joke by some.
You only have to look at the rapidity of abandonment and the almost instantaneous sending out of distress calls to realise that many crews havn't got a clue about "getting to grips " with a problem. I think this can, in extremis, apply to modern passenger ships also. BY.
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Shipmate60

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2012, 09:08:28 PM »

On my last course at Warsash Maritime College I got quite pally with a Chief Officer on 1 of these large floating "hotels".
His main concern about any emergency situation was the crew training and possible actions in a real emergency.
On his ship he had 50+ different languages and strong dialects IN THE CREW.
Some only had a very basic grasp of English, (the expected language on any vessel for international communication), sailing with vast majority of English speaking passengers.

Bob
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CF-FZG

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2012, 09:14:06 PM »

While the loss of life is sad, considering the huge number of self confessed maritime professionals on here, I'm amazed at some of the posts in this thread.

I mean, take the following quote;
Quote
Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to prevent such a catastrophe ever happening.

Now by changing it slightly, it will make so much more sense, (well it does to me).

Being new, I would assume that all possible precautions would have been taken with her design to reduce the chance of such a catastrophe ever happening to be within acceptable limits.

but I suppose to many, that change will seem frivolous - you know the 'no single death is ever accaeptable' brigade, when in reality you can never make anything 100% safe all of the time.
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2012, 09:34:26 PM »

latest on news is that she was 4 miles off course , the captain took a short cut which he thought was safe but all the locals say that there was no way for a ship of that size to go over the rocks in the area he steamed through , it wasn't a sandbank she hit but an outcrop of rock

I'd think the starboard side is damaged a lot worse than the port side but we won't know for sure until they get her upright again , that has to be the only reason for her settling and going over on her starboard side as far as I can figure out.

Any ship will sink if you ram it onto rocks at 22 knots , doubt even a battleship would survive the damage that would inflict if it ripped out the bilge both sides

I think the main lesson to be learned from this is that these ships should have a minimum distance off rocks and a minimum depth of water under the keel at all times with a clear navigation plan before sailing , its been very poor planning and navigation thats led to this disaster along with the decision not to immediately evacuate the ship as soon as this happened

I guess the IMO ( International Maritime Organisation ) needs to have a good look at crew training again and it might be the time to look at international standards for masters of these ships once more maybe insisting on more simulator time for training and testing once qualified and throughout the time a master holds a certificate of competence in the same manner that airline pilots have to have regular checks
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Davie Tait,
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2012, 10:01:32 PM »


 Some 'expert' on one new channels says that air crew have to have 28 days safety training.... cruise ships crew only need 4 days... by law!

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john s 2

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2012, 10:12:01 PM »

Do cruise ships have and should use any form of sonar. Does or could a sonar unit give enough warning of undersea rocks and shallowing water? The sonar would need to look ahead by i assume at least one and a half miles to allow vessal to stop. As said does this gear exist do passenger boats have it? Please let me know your thoughts .Thanks.John.
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2012, 10:34:01 PM »

sonars pretty well useless at 22 knots john it only really works below 14 knots and best below 10 knots , whats needed is a proper navigation plan double checked to make sure its safe for water depth , a wide enough channel if close to coast and a nav plan for the speed they wish to go at , whats perfectly safe at 12 knots could well be seriously unsafe at 22 knots
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Davie Tait,
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carlmt

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2012, 10:37:38 PM »

John S - A sonar in this situation would be useless..........the bridge officers have charts for the areas they sail through - they only need to look at them to see the depth available. They know the draft of their vessel, they know it is an essentailly tideless see, therefore it would be simple mathematics to calculate the safe depth of water to navigate in.

Pure incompetence on the part of A) the Master (as he has overall command) and B) the First and Second Officers (as they are the primary navigating officers).

BTW - on one of the pictures on the Italian newspaper website it clearly shows the vessel's starbord side lying on the rocks - it would seem that these prevented her from turning turtle competely.

Being 4 miles 'off course' is down to the Master's decision............a very poor one as it turns out.

An unneccessary tragedy........................my sympathies for those affected...........
Carl

john s 2

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2012, 10:38:09 PM »

Thanks Davie. Im learning all the time.John.
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roycv

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2012, 11:03:48 PM »

There has been mention of a 'catastrophic' electrical failure.  These are called Electric Boats.  No power and you are at the mercy of wind and tide.
The tonnage of 110,000 tons is Gross Tonnage and the ship is probably around 70,000 tons displacement, still big though!
If I remember correctly the next ship out of this yard (Fincantiere) was the Queen Victoria, although Cunard, these two cruise ship companies are owned by the same company.
Roy
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carlmt

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2012, 11:08:24 PM »

Sorry Roy - I dont buy it.. {:-{

The boat is reported as 4 miles off its planned route - if it had a catasrophic electrical failure of such a magnitude to disable the propulsion and navigation of the ship, then the Master had ample time to firstly put out a distress call and secondly drop the anchors (by gravity) to hold the ship in a safe position until help arrived.......before wind and tide (of which there is little) took her onto the rocks...

C

Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2012, 11:34:44 PM »

The comment from the french man (looks to be familiar with maritime) said that the first thing was the big noise with everything falling down like crash stop then the electrical failure (certainely engine room flooding) then the electrical came back (certainely emergency power unit)

The first message from captain to the passagers and crew said : "technical problem ... stay calm"  then the ship came with list, more and more and then the order for evacuation came. The French guy said that at this time (for him) it was already too late for using the lifeboat on his side because of ship list -  He said that from now (saved and on ground) he's thinking that it was a captain fault with wasted time prior to evacuate.  He said that it was horrific as a full chaos many people don't have life jacket etc... 

About language, the main problem was that a majority of passager where Italian and lot of French (around 15%) and most of the seamen where philippinos speaking english...   
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pettyofficernick

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2012, 11:38:03 PM »

It appears the Master and First Officer have been arrested by the Italian authorities on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter and for abandoning ship before the vessel had been evacuated. Not, by any stretch of the imagination the 'done thing'.
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pugwash

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2012, 12:25:46 AM »

John S asked about Sonar and was shot down - but yes all ships have Sonar  its called  echo or depth sounders and there are hundreds on the market that are forward
looking echo sounders - I had one on my boat - cost about 1000 but now cheaper - looked about 200 metres ahead ( quite sufficient for a 7 knot sailing yacht
ALL echo sounders have a depth (minimum and maximum depths) which are set to the operators requirements.
A ship like this would have had more than one and it would probably the best on the market costing thousands.
The mediterranean is interesting in places - off the Greek Islands in places you can be 25 yards from the shore and be in hundreds of feet of water -
as most of the small islands off Italy are of volcanic origin the bottom will rise very quickly in places so action would have to be taken instantly if the shallow water
alarm sounded.
Either the alarm was not set or action was not taken in time

Geoff
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The long Build

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2012, 01:00:14 AM »

Would they have been douing over 22 knots ?.
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pugwash

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2012, 01:16:26 AM »

The service speed for this vessel is 21.5 knots with a maximum of 23 knots unlike the Italy/Greece ferries which have service speeds of between 27 and 31.5 knots
so she wasn't all that fast

Geoff
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Dreadstar

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2012, 06:24:24 AM »

It's still fast enough,that when an immovable object is spotted,that it's way too late to take avoiding action,that's assuming that the said object was even seen. <:(
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2012, 11:03:56 AM »

Good to hear that they have rescued two more people and are in contact with a third. If you are trapped in your cabin as the ship goes over on its side then you are in a very bad situation indeed. The lower side will flood but even if the upper side is still above water you will find yourself, together with all the loose furniture and other items piled up against the door which is inward opening and with a window or porthole way above your head which you have little chance of reaching. Should you manage to get the door open then there is a four foot drop to the other corridor wall. You would then have to negotiate your way along a darkened passage way with a succession of inward opening doors, each of which would be a potential death trap. Absolute nightmare!

Colin
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Brian_C

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2012, 11:51:49 AM »

 Should you manage to get the door open then there is a four foot drop to the other corridor wall. You would then have to negotiate your way along a darkened passage way with a succession of inward opening doors, each of which would be a potential death trap. Absolute nightmare!

Colin
[/quote]
 
hi Colin, Ive just mentally tried to put myself in that situation on the last ship i sailed on for two years,   even knowing the ship gives you little help on trying to reach somewhere safe    plus its total darkness and your right,   every door is a potential death trap,  you would have a min 6ft drop onto all types of cabin furniture, chair legs tables broken glass etc etc, these passengers would have no knowledge at all of the way out,,, just total fear for their lives of whats just in front of them, all they have is feel and touch, in an environment unknown to them, TOTAL HELL is what i think, the pic below shows what your up against
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killick

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2012, 03:08:20 PM »

Someone on another Forum drew comparisons with the Exxon Valdez Disaster.  Wasn't the real damage in that case done by the crews' attempts to get the Valdez OFF the rocks she'd grounded on?
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