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Author Topic: Bob's H.M.S. Polyphemus  (Read 208368 times)

grendel

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #300 on: April 17, 2013, 07:24:41 pm »

I used to put the pupils on 1/72nd scale model figures (thats just 25mm high) using a magnifying glass and a single hair plucked from my head, the whites of the eyes were relatively simple with just a very small brush.
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tghsmith

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #301 on: April 17, 2013, 09:02:25 pm »

my flexable arm magnifier with LED's lights has been becoming on of my favorite tools as of late,, finding myself looking at pics of the early bow and stern crest that the USS Olympia sported just to make myself think things are that tough after all.. having some good luck using millaput white (fine)it may not apply perfect, but machines well with dremel burrs on slow speeds after its cured...
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Arrow5

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #302 on: April 17, 2013, 09:13:44 pm »

I should have said that the military badges in the photos I used were from the very interesting site  www.glamorganantiques.co.uk   Full of interesting details and objects, military and naval.
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steve pickstock

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #303 on: April 18, 2013, 07:32:49 am »

I paint 1/72nd scale figures - it has been my experience that painting things like eyes fall foul of the law of diminishing returns - I used to put a lot of effort in for no good result. The point is hold a 1/72 scale figure up and compare it with a person standing far enough away to appear to be the same as the figure. Can you even see the whotes of their eyes let along the pupil?

The same goes for heraldic crests, the size of the plaque and the size of the figures on it would suggest to me that a "suggestion" of the figures would be sufficent. Carefully placed 'sqiggles' and 'blobs' (these are technical terms that painters of heraldry in 1/72nd scale use) would work for most observers, who see them and register them in their minds and who then say "Jeez! You've even painted the heraldry!". Though seeing the effort that Bob K puts into his work I'm not sure it would be for him.

A 1/72nd scale viking chief - all of the detail on this figure has been 'suggested' by cunning paint work.

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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #304 on: April 18, 2013, 08:28:44 am »

Remember that 1/60 is not that far off 1/72 and the detail being included will be finer than many models I see.  “Carefully placed 'squiggles' and 'blobs'” is a good description, I have no intention getting the right number of harp strings.  However, it should be recognisable even though my close work eyesight is far from what it was in my teens.

See crest on my 1/96 HMS Amazon completed last year:

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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #305 on: April 19, 2013, 08:37:22 pm »

Looks fantastic Bob, sometimes trial and error can be fun. Sometimes not!  ;) I have lost count the number of times I have had to restart certain unusual fittings.
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #306 on: April 19, 2013, 09:02:31 pm »

Thanks Nick. The only manual on this art is Model Boat Mayhem, and for pushing personal boundaries Trial and Error is indeed par for the course. Each build I learn new skills. Following other build logs inspires me to take time to do the best I can.   O0
 
Right now I am constructing external stanchion supports, 3 mm tube cut into semi circle sections fitted along the outside of the hull between the access steps.   I could 'cheat' but that would spoil the fun !
 
PS:  Many thanks to John R Haynes for being able to supply 16 mm 2 bar RN etched stanchions  :-))
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Superstructure
« Reply #307 on: April 22, 2013, 09:49:47 pm »

Superstructure

Started work on the four superstructure islands.  Most are offset from the centreline.  Note slopping armour.  The later required remembering my old manual draughting skills, projecting development of cones. 
Styrene parts were warmed in non boiling water for shaping.

    Superstructure.

On top of this will go the flying decks.  Lots of pillars like Brighton Pier, with Daleks on top.
Do I make the Nordenfelt turrets revolve?

Stanchion supports amidships are external to the hull profile, which involved over a hundred shaped sections. 
I am not too far off preliminary painting.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), semi submersible
« Reply #308 on: April 26, 2013, 03:58:07 pm »

Hull Painting

Initial primer coats using Halfords rattle cans.  Fine rub down between coats.

Persevering in learning how to use an airbrush on my last model was certainly an asset.    :-))
Right % of thinners.  Everything worked well first time.  Two light covering coats.  Airbrush thoroughly cleaned afterwards.
I used Tamiya XF-66 as it is a slightly darker ‘battleship’ grey. 

Leave for 24 hours.  Mask up for the red oxide (makes up 85% of the hull).  Turn hull upside down and fit temporary wired sponge paint guards into the ballast slots.  This was to prevent spraying into the clear Lexan innards. 

The next day it was time to apply the thin waterline.  I had thought about using three tapes, removing the inner and painting that, but after some trials I used 2mm Trimline tape instead as it was hard to maintain a visually constant width across the various curves and plating detail.

BECC imperial depth markings were added.  I sourced a craft paint with gold particles in suspension.  The coat of arms was fun.  ‘Squiggles and blobs’ was an apt description. 



The lettering on the stern was in 3mm BECC vinyl. With all external surfaces painted, including areas alongside the masked-off under decks, it was not easy to keep finger marks off the fresh matt paintwork.



Two light coats of Plastikote satin spray varnish to seal and finish off the hull. 


 
Flying decks (or Hurricane decks) will be the next task to do.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #309 on: April 26, 2013, 05:15:37 pm »

It's looking really good Bob,
Is plasticote OK ?
A lot of paint experts on here say it's a no no.
But if it works for you who can complain?

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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #310 on: April 26, 2013, 05:54:16 pm »

Hi Ned:  IMO Plastikote satin spray varnish is ideal for the job.  It does not react to either acrylic or enamel paints, and gives a hard wearing protective finish.  I have two boats that have had over a hundred two hour sailing sessions and their hulls still look pristine.  All I do is give the hull a wipe down after getting home.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus, Beale Park Test
« Reply #311 on: May 02, 2013, 11:50:09 pm »

HMS Polyphemus Beale Park Test

Hopefully not premature, but my semi submersible Victorian torpedo ram is scheduled to get its first test run away from the bath tub at Beale Park on Sunday.  Shallow water is a positive technical advantage.  How will it ride in the water underway?  Will the twin 50 mm props over drive it?
Will I have to fish it out with a rope?

Superstructure is only at early stages of construction, partial, with some unpainted styrene and litho plate, but enough to get an idea on the eventual shape. 
 
My first 40 MHz system. I have equipped the Tx aerial with sponge ball and frequency flag, plus made up the ID clothes peg.


Wish me luck  %%
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derekwarner

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #312 on: May 03, 2013, 12:07:09 am »

We have every faith in you Bob...... :} .   .......& your build  :D ..just post pictures.....Derek  :-))
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tghsmith

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #313 on: May 03, 2013, 12:43:55 am »

just as long as it stays not quite a submarine all will be fine, best luck with the sea trials...
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), temporary setback
« Reply #314 on: May 12, 2013, 11:09:40 am »

First sea trials at Beale Park

Best laid plans etc.  After hours of trials in the bath and control systems testing the first sea trials at Beale Park should not have presented major difficulties. 

However, despite pre flight testing before I left home, as soon as I booked out the peg and put her in the water all channels went randomly out of control.  Weird.  It felt like someone else was on the same channel.  Nothing I did on my Tx had any effect.

Eventually a rescue was effected from the other side of the lake.  Back home.  Dried out.  Everything now seems to work fine.  A major leak in the aft compartment was a failure of the adhesive joining the sound system sub assembly through the watertight hatch.  Apart from that just some superficial damage due to repeated bank-bashing.

A couple of weeks in more tests before I try it again.  More silicone applied to hatch joints.  More time in the bath with props running.  My confidence in 40Mhz has been shaken.

Thanks for the photo Guy, and the rescue
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9610/p1010130w.JPG
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Yee Haa !
« Reply #315 on: May 16, 2013, 04:02:17 pm »

Second sea trials,  Black Park

Yee Haa !    Finally, today I have an operational torpedo ram.

Bow shot


First sea trials attempt at Beale Park was a disaster.  No response to my Tx, she ran haywire, then an epoxy joint failure where the sound system tube went through a watertight hatch.
Returned home.  All dried out and inspected.  Everything worked well.  Nearly two weeks of extensive strip-down tests followed.  Hours of re-testing in the workshop, bath and Koi pond.  Still working well, so off to Black Park Lake for a re-run with fingers crossed.

First time using a 40MHz system (Beale Park did not count) and it responded to my input.  At 25lbs I expected inertia / momentum would affect things so I got underway very gingerly.  The Kondor motors from Deans are ideal for the twin 50 mm props.  At 6V the slow rotation nudged her forwards away from the bank.  With more stick there was more than enough power to go way beyond scale speed.  Compartments all stayed dry.

Under Way


Manoeuvring was better than expected, thanks to the three rudders and ACTion P94 unit.  Not sure if the bow rudders have as much effect as I would have expected though.  Sound system and Mister were both effective.

Still some more rework to do.  One ballast tank had more effect than the other, requiring blowing ballast from time to time.  Thinking cap on.

Apart from that a very successful day in bright sunshine.  It will take a while to adjust the trim, and plenty of work to do on the superstructure.

Blowing Ballast

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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #316 on: May 16, 2013, 04:04:53 pm »

What was the problem Bob?
 
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #317 on: May 16, 2013, 04:13:28 pm »

It was nice to meet you at Beale Park Bob.  Still no idea why my Tx did not work.  I had the official peg before turning it on.  Some have suggested either interference, or someone in gazebo 'testing'.  Mystery.
Two ton expoxy does not seem to bond with polycarbonte (Lexan). That stuff normally sticks the proverbial to a blanket  %%
 
All watertight now.  Amazing what a difference it makes having a ship actually respond to your Tx stick movements.  I feel a lot better today  :}
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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #318 on: May 16, 2013, 04:17:31 pm »

Did you rough up the Lexan before sticking?
Nice to meet you at Beale even though you a bit disappointed with the result of her first sailing.
 
Bob
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #319 on: May 16, 2013, 05:27:59 pm »

Did you rough up the Lexan before sticking?
Bob

Yes, both the 40 mm cut hole plus about 3 mm around it.  Strange, I would have thought the plastic waste pipe might be a problem but that adhered nicely.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #320 on: May 16, 2013, 05:38:49 pm »

Devcon Plastic welder or another modified acrylic adhesive will bond permanently and watertight to polycarbonate, and you use it just like epoxy. To be honest though epoxy should work, I always stick with 24 hour araldite when using epoxy, you can't go wrong with that stuff. Just make sure you leave it a few days to fully cure through if it's going to be submerged.

With the ballast tank, it could be that moulding isn't fully symmetrical or possibly trapped air- now you know why I favour a single central ballast tank- much easier to control in model form. You can trim this by placing foam in the larger tank to reduce it's displacement.

Front rudders are never going to be great- they don't benefit from prop wash, and are closer to the boats centre of gravity.

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #321 on: May 16, 2013, 09:25:21 pm »

Thank you Andy.  That joint is above the waterline, but needs to be watertight as water comes over decks when under way.  As you know I have been way over my depth on this project, but it was so nice to finally see her sailing today.
Not sure what is causing the slight list today, never done that before in the bath or pond.  I must recheck the internal pipework for possible blockage.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), further progress
« Reply #322 on: June 03, 2013, 10:43:51 pm »

Further Progress

  Alford Model Boat Show
What a super event, as always.  An excellent opportunity to put the latest updates to the test. 
She ran well for an extended period, stayed dry, and resisted listing quite well (see below).  Still requires quite a bit of way on her before the rudder takes effect.  Maybe I should swap the scale rear rudder for a much larger one.  11 kg plus up to 2.5 kg of water ballast is a lot of mass to swing around.

At least I ran her at full ‘stealth’ depth on Sunday for the first time.  Water just flows over the f’o’c’sle and main deck most realistically.  Almost submerged.

Dynamic Ballasting
There is more to ballasting this type of model than I had imagined.  I had to trim test at varying levels of ballast water, plus allow for the dynamic effect of the hull and shaped ram when underway. 

Materials & Adhesives
I am learning a lot about materials and adhesives on this project.  However, the technical aspects of the design seem to be working well.  If I had to do this again I would use 2 mm fibreglass sheet instead of Lexan.
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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #323 on: June 04, 2013, 12:27:57 am »

bob i will post the pictures in the next day or so from alfold, - just need to kind the charger for the camera first !
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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), a major setback
« Reply #324 on: June 11, 2013, 06:54:28 pm »

A Major Setback
 
Running well, but . . .

After three long sailing sessions without mishap or any water ingress, including two sessions mostly at attack depth in less than calm waters, I thought I had finally overcome failing internal seams.  In addition I have lost count of the hours she has spent in the bath and koi pond in numerous tests’ including holding the hull underwater to check for air bubbles.

Finally I had the trim remaining level under varying water ballasting, and in attack mode ‘sea’ just broke over the f’o’c’sle and along the main deck realistically.  Internal compartments remained dry.

A setback

However, on Sunday after an hours sailing in slightly choppy water without apparent problems the ship suddenly went into bow-down attitude then fully submerged.  Luckily a long pole with a grappling hook saved the day.  Below is an early photo of the internal structure, mainly in 3 mm clear Lexan polycarbonate.  Eight independent sealed compartments.  Even flooding two non-ballast compartments she should still float.


Basic internal structure and hatches

Autopsy

One of the two 1 m long longitudinal ballast tank bulkhead joints had failed, despite being set in up to half an inch of Silkaflex sealant, flooding four of the six watertight compartments.    Either a temperature difference or slight flexing of the whole structure proved sufficient to spring the joint.  Getting anything to permanently stick to Lexan has been the bane of this project.

Limited Options

At least I have proved the design works as intended, it’s just the choice of materials.  Frankly I have tried everything over the months and it is clear that had I used 3 mm fibreglass instead of Lexan for bulkheads she would have remained watertight.  With the sheer quantity of Silkaflex and other adhesives there is no way this can be ripped apart without destroying the hull. 

The only realistic option at this stage is to seal off the ballast tank vent slots and fill the side voids with foam.  No longer a semi submersible, but at least a working ship, and the satisfaction that had I used other materials my design was sound.

Seeing propellers spinning above the surface is a sure sign something is not right. {:-{

 
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