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Author Topic: crash tender (Fireboat) refurb and brushless conversion start to finish project!  (Read 40716 times)

red181

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Well I was undecided if it was interesting enough to do a build blog on here, I seem to be hijacking another thread about this boat, so thought what the hell, give it a go! :-)

Its the 46" Aerokits ply construction boat, this project was started some time ago, so its catch up time, please please contribute with ideas etc. but some aspects have already been done, so its too late if I got it wrong! :D

It will feature a relatively unique twin screw drivetrain, brushless, and if anybody recalls my Huntsman build, I try to get it as accurate as possible, but insane speeds, big contradiction really, but thats me! Now I am certainly no expert builder, infact I CANNOT build from scratch, just refurb, so buckle up, here we go!! %% %%


The boat was rescued summer 2010 from ebay, soundly made, true and square, never run or put in the water, circa late sixties, and sat in a loft ever since. It lived in the  south Wales area, difficult to get to, and no postage offered, so for 75 I think it was a steal for this very original old girl

  




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red181

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On bringing it home, I stripped out all the junk, and sold the motor on ebay, it had never been run, I didnt know what the motror was, but it fetched 60, so the boat now owed me 15 :-)), it gets better and better though, where do you store a big four foot boat???, well I also dabble with RC helis, and found on a heli website a "damaged parts" sale, I was real lucky to find an ally box, just the right size, reduced from 125 to 15, wanted a couple of repairs to it, but what a steal!! ok2



The motor was a 12v hectoperm, whatever that is!!




Huntsman cant resist a camera opportunity, It must have sneaked its back end in when my back was turned, cheeky thing! %%




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red181

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So, I forgot to say at the beginning, apologies if you are a member of St Helens Model Boat Club, you have seen this build start some months ago!

After 12 months in the loft, summer 2011 its time to make a start, so off with the paint!, what a terrible job, don't know what it was painted with but it WOULD NOT come off, then when things seems to be at their darkest, my mentor (a very patient fellow member) suggested fairy power spray, yes you read it correctly, Fairy power spray,  :o

At this point I would have tried anything, used sanders, scrapers, thinners, nitromors, next was a flame thrower, so sprayed it on, left it for a bit, and gentle scraping, it all fell off  ok2, no caustic smell, of chemicals that render the boat unpaintable, flippin great! :-))




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phillnjack2

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well what about doing a bit old but with modern twist.
the boat sits on the water all nice and calm, then a little siren goes off  like fire alarm
then wallop, boat bursts into life with led underwater lights nice sound system kicking out some funky tunes
and little fire fighters pop up and start dancing on the deck ?....


or just get this to look as original as possible and try to get a scale speed going so the boat dont look proper mental
and look silly on the turns. ?
I had one of these during the sixties with a little diesel engine.
my dad used to start it up for me and i would run round the other side of the round pond at kensington gardens to watch it come towards me.

will look forward to seeing this one come to life

phill
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red181

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Hi Phill, well.......... wait and see, but it does go mental, and will look very scale, the turns where difficult to cure, but that comes later!

I cant post too fast as I dont want to catch up to "real time" if you know what I mean, this thread will not fade away without an ending, I hate it when that happens, we will all go right to the end, good or bad. It will have lights!, but I have not done them yet, must find the soldering iron!

Paul
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red181

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Next bit is horrible, preparing for the paint. With my smaller 36" Fireboat, it suffered after time with delamination, so I decided to fibreglass this boat, I had only done this once before, so was dreading this job.




This is for the hull, and a better brand for the deck, which is thinner and easier to apply, I wont need as good a finish on the deck as that will be painted with a none slip finish, as per real boat. The superstructure cabin sides will not need to be fibreglassed, more on that later.
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red181

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Before glassing starts, we need to change from single screw to twin screw, never had a twin screw boat before, so this is new territory for me, time to enlist some help! :embarrassed:

Rudders are set, and the single shaft removed, holes are filled with epoxy from the single shaft




Rudders are shop bought, the mounts are custom made from brass, with a "o" ring that seals when the rudder is pulled into place by the captive nut at the top, inside the boat. Links are made from brass, as per photo, and I am using a digital servo for rudder control, as these tend to operate faster, and have more torque, it also has metal gears so should be more resilient. I intend to test a gyro after construction, got one ready from a rc helicopter.

For those that are unfamiliar with these, on  a heli, a gyro in simple terms keeps the tail in the direction the operator wants, so compensates for any wind that may cause a deviation, the theory is, if wind is affecting the course of the boat, or some water undulations, the gyro will keep it straight on course. These can be turned on and off with the transmitter whilst the boat is in use, so on a windy day, I will easily be able to see if it is doing any good O0 It may be useless, but I like dabbling with things, and these hulls handle bad at the best of times so anything will help!    
 

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phillnjack2

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Hang ona minute
How did you get 60 for that motor ???????

are you sure you got 60 !!!! did you hold a gun to their head or what ha ha ha i do remember it was expensive when i got it but dont remember just how much.
if you know anyone who wants to swap me a brushless motor about 4250 with 800 -1300kv they can have mine.
i hate the bloody thing.
Mine has had less than 2 hours run, its not what i thought it would be when i bought it brand new about 30 years ago.

not sure of the voltage and dont know how to tell, but think its 12 volt, here is a piccy of it

its obviously tooooo slow for anything i want to use, and im looking for a fast motor for my 37 inch planning hull.

yours will be realy good if your huntsman is anything to go by, that is a beauty

phill
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red181

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yeah sixty quid! I didnt even know what it was, ebay...... one mans rubbish is anothers treasure!, you just never know :-))

I was reading over the Huntsman thread, remember our conversation about cleaver props? Well another is coming for the Huntsman, everyone I tried wanted to turn the boat over, I have also got two for the Fireboat on order, as all the testing has been done, but dont want to jump to that yet :-X
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red181

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Fibre glassing......the secret is, go to a friends house, use his workshop, then all the resin drips on his floor! :}

In all seriousness, on a big boat like this, its a two man job, as the resin goes off quite quick, and the cloth shrinks, pulls, and moves, its a horrible job, but worth doing as the wood is sealed once and for all, but there is a lot of work involved afterwards, sanding finishing etc, but before that, lets sort out the running gear, the interesting bit (feel free to join in, is there anybody there?? ;D)

The motors are brushless, and have 5mm shafts, the reason is, the shafts are to be removed, and the propshaft will go straight into the motors, no couplings, no drive belts, gears etc, the ultimate direct drive, and two of them! O0, it could be a failure (so the mounts have to be designed in  a way we can change the setup easily) or could be a success, if so, I patent the idea! ha ha

Getting the shafts out was ok, as the motors we chose had removeable shafts, they are 800kv. The problem was getting the propshaft through the can, it was an interference fit, with a grub screw, any off centre enlarging of the hole would render this task a failure, everything needs to be dead straight and true

As a precaution, I have drilled and tapped another hole in the can, so two grubscrews hold it in place, I dread to think of the damage if the can spins off, they are outrunners!


A mount was made from brass, which is soldered to the propshaft outertube, it slides on, and withing this is a bearing. An oiler tube is fitted, I dont like grease, first test in the kitchen sink


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eganpxsI3r0

thats on 3 cells instead of 4, which is what it will run on, and not full trhrottle, should be interesting, at this point I wondered about my sanity
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red181

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couple of pics




Motor with original shaft, circlip has to be removed, and there is a grub screw at rear, but it was a very tight fit and quite difficult to remove




shaft fitted for water test video




better shot of the new brass mount, screws are just for location purposes, and on first fitting the oiler nipple was too long, hence washer
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HS93 (RIP)

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The last picture was the first test fit and was not used in the boat the brass mounts are thicker on the final mount

Peter


the one with the messy floor

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phillnjack2

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the engines having the shaft inside them is brilliant.

are these bits something i can buy or do they have to be made by wizzards or witches ?

there is no way i can make something like this with a sledgehammer and a pair of pliers and a mig welder !!!!!!

the size of motor would be great for what i want as well.

if i see this boat i might just have to relocate it for a few minutes   ha ha ha

its not stealing, just relocating and recycling  :D



phill.... :-))
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gwa84the2nd

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Interesting refurbe so far bud have you a link to thoas motor's please they look like just the job for my huntsman
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Norseman

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is there anybody there?? ;D)
O0 lurking  :}

Dave
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red181

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ha ha well done Dave, glad you are there in the background! :-))

I have had several questions about the motors, they are nothing special, cheap chinese, infact the first one was so badly wound it went back for exchange, something you would not normally know about as nobody would be taking the can off and removing the shaft.  They came from Giant cod, which is no more unfortunately. There was a bit of science behind the choice , I knew I was going to use M5 shafts, I try and use all the same now, so parts like props etc are interchangeable, and all the boats have bearings, so I dont end up with multiple sizes in a load of boats.
Then the shaft had to be removeable, for the project in hand, they also had to be a reasonable price, incase the project failed. We have done 3 yrs testing and developing with brushless, so had a good idea what kv we needed for this size and weight boat, dont get me wrong, there could be a better alternative, but using personal experience, and the limited info on the net, the choice was

EMP C4240, 800KV, 980WATTS, 3-7 LIPO CELLS, 9-21NIMH

I have  used 800 and 880kv before, so knew it was a good balance between torque and revs, I wanted to run each motor on 4 lipo cells, and had these so no further expense, they cost approx 18 each, cheaper than most  graupner bb turbo motors! ,

we (well not me!) made the mounts up, they are a work of art, wait till the next bit, it gets better!
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red181

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after having serious heat issues in the last overpowered brushless boat :embarrassed: we decided that some sort of water cooling for the motors would be a good idea, at this stage before all the detailed work began.

The fireboat has 3 exhausts, exiting at rear, one is for the V8 that drives the fire monitors, and two are the drive engines. To the annoyance of my partner in crime, I really wanted the exhausts to work, and be used as the exit point for the water cooling, the idea being the water would bubble out and look a bit like real exhausts, with some imagination!




look closethey are just above the waterline!

Alloy cooling plates where constructed on a milling machine, drilled and cross drilled (by memory 3mm) to create a "u" profile insde the alloy block, thus creating a water way. With a brushless outrunner, whilst in use the motors tend to be self cooling, to a point, when they stop there is a latent heat build up at the front, so a cooling block between the motor and mount should help.




blocks being cut and drilled
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red181

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cooling blocks ready for finishing, and the redesigned brass mounts, with a couple of spares! (I tend to lose and/or break things!)




good shot for the spec of the motors. Cooling plates fitted, mount done with redesigned oiler tube, you can see a grub screw at the top of the cooling plate, this is where the "u" was formed, its locktighted in, and the exit/entrance nipples for the cooling tubes, water in, around the plate, being alloy it should dissipate heat ok, then back out to the esc's, which are also water cooled.

Each motor will have its own water pick up, own tubing to the mount, its own esc, own battery packs,  then exit through its own exhaust at back, so two seperate systems for  the two props :-))

will probaly not post for a few days now, its ready to post, but I am rapidly catching up to real time!
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gwa84the2nd

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would you say thease wher about the same  :-))
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red181

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Quote
would you say thease wher about the same  

sorry, dont know what you are refering to?
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triumphjon

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thank you for the invaluable information RED 181  , we have the smaller version thats currently being converted to brushless too , the first task being a replacment propshaft !
jon
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red181

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Hi Jon, good to see you in here! Ive just spotted you over on fireboat site, I was going to post the build there, but thought it would be a bit boring as there are so many fireboat builds there.

I have recently swopped my graupner bb turbo out of my 36" fireboat, with all the motor swopping in the Huntsman, I had a spare T600 Turnigy 880kv, 6mm shaft, ran this on direct drive and 4 lipo cells, it was quite good, that motor was very good in the Huntsman on 6 cells, so there is plenty of scope for it, not really tried any nimhs yet but it should be ok, they come up from time to time on ebay as heli boys upgrade them, keep a look out they are very good motors, in rc heli sections, I knabbed mine for 20 virtually new,  :-))
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gwa84the2nd

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red181

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http://www.giantshark.co.uk/xyh4250-800kv-outrunner-p-405282.html

this appears to be ssame spec, same size, how cheap are they!
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HS93 (RIP)

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Just think you could put  ten of them in the hunts for the price of the thing that is in now  :embarrassed: :embarrassed:  :((

Peter
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