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Author Topic: Scratch built ?  (Read 3430 times)

Bob K

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Scratch built ?
« on: January 11, 2013, 10:19:14 AM »

Some build kits whilst others say they only scratch build, but what exactly is scratch built?

Airfix are kits, even if the builder has done considerable conversion and extra detailing, plus successfully converted the model for radio controlled sailing.  A lot or original work involved.

They are incredible models of ships such as HMS Victory that could take an expert modeller up to two years to complete, but this would probably also be defined as a kit as the parts are pre-marked and come with an instruction manual.

Is "scratch built" solely defined as having bought just raw materials and worked to plans and photos?  Obviously they have not made the batteries motors Rx and probably many other parts used, and may even have bought some ready-made fittings and crew figures.

If one has used a fibre glass hull and made the rest from raw materials and plans this would probably still not count as scratch built ?

How do you properly define "scratch built" ?
 
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TailUK

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2013, 10:26:06 AM »

I'd define "scratchbuilt" as building the hull and superstructure and adding bought fittings such as weapons, deck furniture, etc.  Props and rudders don't count.
Using a GRP hull makes it semi scratchbuilt.
Modifying a bought boat I'd call "kit bashing"
 
But that's just me!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2013, 10:47:31 AM »

This is a subject which has been the subject of heated debate in the past on here although I can't be bothered to look for it now!
 
The term 'scratchbuilding' is generally held to mean constructing from generic or raw materials which were not specifically intended for the job in hand as opposed to purchasing items which are.
 
Thus you can have a scratchbuilt hull (plank on frame), scratchbuilt superstructure (ply or styrene etc.), scratchbuilt fittings (moulding your own cowl vents) and scratchbuilt running gear (make your own shafts, tubes & rudders and cast your own propellers). If it is a steam powered model then you could even have a scratch built engine but electric motors and of course batteries are not regarded as a practical proposition for obvious reasons.
 
So any given model may or may not incorporate elements of scratchbuilding in its construction. Apart from the personal satisfaction of making your own stuff it is only an issue if you enter the model into a competition when the judges will need to know how much of it you have made and how much you have bought.
 
Simples....
 
Colin
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Martin [Admin]

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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 11:09:00 AM »


128 letters in 2008.     That took some reading.        :} :} :}



ken

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Bob K

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 11:33:30 AM »

Ooops.  Sorry.  Did not realise this might have been a contentious issue.  I asked out of personal interest only as it was a frequently heard model making term.
 
Thank you Gentlemen.
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tigertiger

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 11:46:40 AM »

Some of the rivet counters of the modelling world will even argue that you must draw up your own plans. :o


For fibreglass. If you mould your own hull, and several of our members have done, this counts as scratch building.
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TailUK

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 11:50:25 AM »

Bob,  I don't think it's a contentious issue really.  If anyone gets het up about this then they are probably a little too tightly wound.
"To each his own" and as long as you're enjoying the activity who really cares if it's scratched, bashed or thrown on the water right out of the box.
In some of the other modelling fields, competition rules state that only a certain percentage of a model can be "bought" to still qualify as a scratchbuild.  The real answer would be "get a life"  As long as the model gives it's owner the satisfaction of a job well done who cares.
 
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Tug-Kenny

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 11:51:42 AM »


I wonder why they use the word  'Scratch'

Anyone have opinions on this.


Ken

ps  Glad you brought it up Bob. An excellent subject.



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Neil

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 12:17:41 PM »

I asked the judges at Blackpool this past year when I entred my 3 lifeboats into the comp as although I had designed them some years ago I was using a quantitiy of Dave Metcalf owned fittings from the old Lifeboats I had designed.
They told me that it is considered a scratch built if a commercial hull is used, and/or no more than (if I remember) 20% of the fittings/fixtures are bought comercially and used on the model.
That does NOT  include propellors, chain or prop shafts.
 
so there you go.....and they were using MPBA rules I believe, to judge the models
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Bob K

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 12:22:45 PM »

ps  Glad you brought it up Bob. An excellent subject.

Thank you Ken.  Maybe there is no true definition for "scratch built", apart from perhaps the expert opinions of competition judges who evaluate what proportion of parts in a build are truly from unrelated raw materials.  Otherwise even one bought bollard could technically invalidate it, or a project started by one person and finished by another.
 
Interesting !
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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 12:23:21 PM »

I wonder why they use the word  'Scratch'

Anyone have opinions on this.



The only sources I found both quote the same thing.


This use of scratch derives from a line or mark drawn or scratched into the ground to indicate a boundary or starting-point in sports, especially cricket and boxing. That meaning of scratch goes back to the late 18th century. From there it came to apply specifically to the starting point, in a handicap, of a competitor who received no odds: "Mr. Tom Sabin, of the Coventry Bicycle Club, has won, during last week, three races from scratch." (Bicycle Journal, August 18, 1878).
It was later applied figuratively with the meaning "from nothing", and it was used thus by James Joyce in Ulysses (1922): "A poor foreign immigrant who started scratch as a stowaway and is now trying to turn an honest penny." Thereafter it was taking up in cooking once boxed mixes and prepared foods became widely available. Today it is a badge of honor to be able to say one made a culinary delight from scratch.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 12:50:45 PM »

Different competitions have their own rules so there is no definitive meaning of a 'scratchbuilt' model. If you enter a competition you are bound by the rules of that competition and the interpretations of the judges.
 
Back in the 1970s there was more of a consensus as to what constituted a scratch built model but in those days you simply did not have the commercial offerings that we now take for granted. Anyway, unless you are entering a competition it doesn't matter how much of the model is built and how much is bought as long as you are happy yourself. Certainly not worth arguing about!
 
Colin
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Neil

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 01:04:07 PM »

Anyway, unless you are entering a competition it doesn't matter how much of the model is built and how much is bought as long as you are happy yourself. Certainly not worth arguing about!
Colin

totally agree Colin.
neil.
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Circlip

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 01:08:24 PM »

Scratch building ( as far as I was informed ) was starting with a plan as the basis and constructing everything else or that's what the ME exhibitions (past tense) seemed to advocate with in some cases, downgrades for the use of some "Incorrect" materials.
 
  At the end of the day, it's whatever floats yer boat. Build as museum quality and risk sailing and getting attacked by a rampant Swan/Duck or child? or to enjoy flobbing about on yer pond.
 
  Scratch builder supreme? at this point Krishna.
 
  Regards  Ian.
 
  Have to  qualify my last sentence by saying "using the resources available to him" rather than being able to pick anything from 'tinternet.
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TheLongBuild

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2013, 01:36:08 PM »

No you are all wrong  :}   All scratch built means is you scratch your head a lot when building , thinking how in the world am I going to do that  :-)) :-))

Circlip

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2013, 01:36:50 PM »

On another vein, luv this "Restoration" :-
 
  http://www.woodyboater.com/classic-boats/the-raising-and-restoration-of-wa-chee-we-an-amazing-1923-ditchburn-class-racer/
 
  Regards  Ian
 
  Looks a bit like a scratch build to me.
 
  Re, the thirty year old Yard broom.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2013, 01:37:03 PM »

Some of the rivet counters of the modelling world will even argue that you must draw up your own plans. :o


... and your own full scale original vessel?!?!!!  %)
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TailUK

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2013, 01:38:18 PM »

Scratch building ( as far as I was informed ) was starting with a plan as the basis and constructing everything else or that's what the ME exhibitions (past tense) seemed to advocate with in some cases, downgrades for the use of some "Incorrect" materials.
 
  At the end of the day, it's whatever floats yer boat. Build as museum quality and risk sailing and getting attacked by a rampant Swan/Duck or child? or to enjoy flobbing about on yer pond.
 
  Scratch builder supreme? at this point Krishna.
 
  Regards  Ian.
 
  Have to  qualify my last sentence by saying "using the resources available to him" rather than being able to pick anything from 'tinternet.

I agree about Krishna,  His models may not win the Super Accurate Cup but he gets some fun out of them. 
Actually I was thinking of outsourcing my builds to him, should be done in a week or two.  :-)) :-)) :-))
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TheLongBuild

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2013, 01:42:48 PM »


I agree about Krishna,  His models may not win the Super Accurate Cup but he gets some fun out of them. 
Actually I was thinking of outsourcing my builds to him, should be done in a week or two.  :-)) :-)) :-))
A week or two, why is he on a go slow  :}

TailUK

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2013, 01:47:59 PM »

A week or two, why is he on a go slow  :}

Well, he does have 30 boats of his own to build too!
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colin-d

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 02:05:40 PM »

this is a good subject you chose Bob.
 
and to quote a fellow "Colin" and "Niel"  there no need to worry unless your entering Comps....
 
i have the rule book published by the Naviga (World Organisation) its close on 45, A5 pages from those about 10 of them covers a class that most would call Scratch built, most important parts extracted, the MPBA should have the rule book as well..
 
1. true-to-original scale model ships built according to technical documentation without using commercially produced parts.
 
2. The following tolerances are allowed in the F2, F4 and F-DS classes:
Length of the model up to:

500 mm       1000 mm         2000 mm         2500 mm        longer
+/- 3 mm      +/- 5 mm           +/- 8 mm          +/- 10 mm       +/- 12 mm
         
Width of the model up to:

50 mm         150 mm            300 mm            600 mm          wider
+/- 2 mm      +/- 2 mm          +/- 4 mm           +/- 5 mm        +/- 6.5 mm
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Bryan Young

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2013, 03:18:01 PM »

Gosh! I thought this hoary old subject had been put to bed ages ago.
As far as I recall it’s always been a subject that ends up in acrimony.
I consider myself to be a scratch builder. I’ve always built my own GRP hulls, and in the “early days” made all my own bits’n’pieces. Once I proved to myself that I could make a bit, I had/have no qualms about buying the equivalent commercial item. I mean, paying 25p for an funnel stay eyebolt knocks spots off spending about half an hour making one. The same goes for things like the triple sheave lifeboat fall blocks.
But again, it all depends on the scale of your model, and many items are particular to that individual model. I couldn’t give a brass farthing about “kit” or “scratch” or anything in-between…..as long as the builder has put his best efforts into it. What does annoy me are those “builders” or buyers who  just clag bits together as quickly as possible and really haven’t a clue or any real interest in the actual model. That sort of attitude, to my way of thinking, just cheapens the work done by those who do care.  BY.
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vnkiwi

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2013, 04:01:41 PM »

Well said Bryan
 :-))
vnkiwi
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sailorboy61

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Re: Scratch built ?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2013, 04:18:15 PM »

Or take a look at Krishna's builds - they are pretty much what I would call scratch built.
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