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Author Topic: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought  (Read 107158 times)

Circlip

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2013, 05:09:59 PM »

This is the beauty of pin or ball type couplings, no thrust on the motor shaft, the propshaft although driven floats. Not something it can do with Huco's.
 
  Regards   Ian.
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victorian

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2013, 10:32:20 PM »

Mars is powered by two car heater motors supplied originally by one the traders since getting into scrapyards isnt so easy nowadays. They run beautifully and are not sensitive to direction with Direct drive and adequate but not excessive speed. The shafts have to be inclined sharply because of the motor diameter. Ideally this shaft would run horixontally along the keel to the crankshafts in the bottom of the engine.



Props are Swan foundry Vicdtorian pattern (sorry cant remembervwhat size but 4 blade and similar to the Deans ones and I cant speak highly enough of the product. When I lost a prop from little Pelorus through over enthustic reversing in a weed tangle, prop shop made me the exact replacent with an improved locking arrangment.


The big cruiser Niobe has two heater style motors which use the traditional Smiths frame but are in fact 24v hydraulic pump motors oprated on 12v in the boat. The drive is transmitted by a 2:1 step up timing belt driving the smallest pulley available, so that the shaft lies right in the bottom of the hull. These motors share the 12 pole design of the car heater motors but are far more powerful. I didn't know about the dimple but these motors run in sintered bearings and run equally in eith direction.


The specially made shafts have a huge sealed ball bearing at the engine room end to take thrust loads and the belt tension. The shafts have the most positive prop locking nut arrangement I can come up with. The only snag is that if heavy handed, there's so much torque that the belts can be made to skip at any amount of tension and that the Captain is able to water ski behind his command. The bow wave thrown up is very plausible at a scale 200 kt, resembling Froude's model tests.


Incidentally, if you do loose a paired prop, don't dispair. A bras disc of the right diameter with radial notches cut by tin snips and bent to the approximate profile of the surviving prop will work so well you will struggle to tell which is which. Solder one of the locknuts to stop it spinning.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #52 on: August 19, 2013, 01:42:02 PM »

I have also been using car blower motors in my various battleships for a good number of years without any issues. Mine came from a Talbot Horizon and look very similar to the ones in the pictures. I run mine in parallel on 6 volts and the current draw is about 3amps in all full speed, which is quite adequate.
 
I have used identical motors with one electronise speed controller in Lord Nelson 1908 (45 lbs) Canopus 1899 (35 lbs - when electric powered) and Neptune 1918 (60 lbs) and in all cased found the motors worked just as well in either direction.
 
On a practical basis I measured the stall current on these motors and it was in excess of 20 amps each on 6 volts! I therefore installed a 10 amp in line fuse between the battery and speed controller and a 5 amp fuse  for each motor between the speed controller and the motor. This worked in practice as on one occassion I sailed Neptune in some loose ice and a chunk got wedged beteen the prop and hull and the torque tore the engine out of it's mounting inside and blue the 5 amp fuse leaving the other motor and speed contoller fully operational.
 
In terms of taking the thrust I typically use the end of the prop shaft with a couple of brass washers. On the inside just the locking nut and more washers for reverse and I have never had any issues. It's all set up so there is no direct thrust loading on the motors.
 
You will find the motors perfectly quiet and extreemley long lasting. In fact I now have two spares which are earmarket for Iron Duke 1916 @ 1/96 scale. Just started the final plans for this beast!
 
Enjoy
 
Geoff
 
 
 
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2013, 11:10:13 AM »

So by looks of things I'm not the only nutter who uses car heater motors then! Thanks for the extra information about them, as a popular supermarket says 'every little helps'!

Hopefully this Sunday the hull will be ballasted to see how much extra weight that 'might be' required to sit her at her waterline. I've been quite busy adding internal bulkheads and the alike to compartmentalise the hull. I have built up the engine mounts using some mahogany looking hardwood from a building merchants and keyed in place with superglue then coated it with fibreglass to prevent it breaking loose (has happened to me before!  :embarrassed: ).  The bulkheads are off cuts from my Dad's HMS X1 project and with a bit of modeller's fettling they fitted, these will create the smoke generator box- I will be using MMBs 24v Foggy Unit Mk 2- it will also allow me to add ballast boxes wither side of the foggy unit, once ballasted the the box will be covered with 1/8" ply and the ESCs will sit on top. A place for everything! ;)







I have also started to paint the inside of the hull, we prefer to see a painted interior to seal everything in and to make everything look nice and clean.

As per the instructions I cut out the rudder shapes from the 1mm plastic card sheet, located the brass rod from the fittings pack and glued the rudder together. The only difference is that I filled it up with P-40 car filler to give it some shape and weight.







I am not 100% sure about the accuracy of the rudder shape as the drawing in Warship Vol VII shows a squarer rudder shape and a different hinge position- as I get along I'm sure we will find out what is correct!  :-))
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »

Nice progress and good to see another Pre-Dreadnought under construction. I believe the rudders on these ships were unbalanced and were mounted direct to the keel post so for complete accuracy you may need to move the rudder closer to the keel post, but then again it is under water and will work perfectly well the way it is. I'll check on the rudder shape from my plans when I get home if I remember and will report back.
 
Don't forget to build a turret turning mechanism in and allow some good space beneath the turrets if you want to get firing guns. I have various methods some proven and others still on the drawing board!
 
Look forward to further progress and pictures.
 
Regards
 
Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2013, 12:34:28 PM »

Looking good.  The MMB 24V misters are really good, and will 'smoke' for up to an hour.  Making rudders look like keelpost hinged is fun, getting aqll the pintel details realistic, but should be a lot easier than the rudders on your gunboat.  Please keep posting  :-))
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2013, 02:12:28 PM »

Thanks Geoff, I would be most grateful if could confirm the rudder hinge location for me, regarding the turrets I was informed by Ron Dean that some GRP versions might be available in the future because Colin in Germany has bought one too and is converting it to Mikasa, in the process he is making some GRP turrets so fingers crossed!


I'll try to take as many pictures as possible for everyone Bob K, the rudder should be easier even if I have to rebuild it, the gunboat was serious fun to get to work properly especially replacing the servo for a bigger metallic geared version! I have quite a few MMB foggies saved up now, so I don't have to keep swapping them from model to model, so simple and brilliant to use, just gives that impression of steam,. I've got to modify the funnel from the foggy to convert it to a twin so I visit to the builders merchant might be coming again soon.
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Nick B

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tghsmith

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2013, 01:37:57 PM »

she's coming along nicely, screaming for a set of prop shop vintage era props, the level of detail on ships of this time frame can drive you crazy( I'm at least half way there!!!) from looking at photos she will show a large amount of chain, take a looks at the 3D printed chain at the floating drydock .. ships of this vintage may of had different styles of rudders even in ships that were of close design, it was an age experiment and advancement with ships being reworked before completion and often obsolete when launched.. I'm in the middle of 2 month yard period to finally get my beast from just runnable to finally finished.. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929997
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2013, 01:48:10 PM »

Hi tghsmith


Thanks, yours looks fantastic too, the level of detail in the kit is good but looking at period photos you begin to realise the extra fittings that you need to add yourself! I'm saving up for some prop shop vintage props, I love the quality and the feel of cast bronze propellers! If the weather holds the hull will be ballasted tomorrow morning, I've already planned for two 12v SLAs, two car heater motors, and a foggy unit, so I'm hoping that not too much more ballast is required. I'll have a look at the floating drydock for the chains, I luckily found some for my 1/32 scale river gun boat from MMB several years ago that looked perfect and was hoping to find some nice linked chain for the Prince George so fingers crossed it'll look the part.
Look forward to seeing your Brooklyn finished too, Victorian era ships seem to have that 'something' about them,  :-))
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colin-d

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2013, 10:13:29 AM »

i am also pleased to see some more of the Older types of ships...  :-))
 
my friend down the road is building Hannibal "Victorian style"
he is using the Deans kit and modifying it according to the Admiralty plans, and a book by a known gentleman..
 
here's his main gun...
 
sorry for jumping in... hope you enjoy your build as my friend his enjoying his..
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2013, 12:38:26 PM »

Hi Colin


Thanks for the picture of your friend's main gun, it looks fantastic! Hope I can make mine as good as his.
I've been looking through some books which have given me some ideas for future Victorian era vessels:
The old Warspite looks interesting with her massively curved hull sides, I have plans of an old gun sloop called HMS Basilisk which looks very appealing!


I was going to ballast the hull today but the weather was not the best so its been postponed until next weekend.
I've been looking through the prop shop catalogue for props and I can only find the 43mm and 76mm diameter four bladed props in the vintage section, I think the props on the majestic class in this scale would be approx 50-55mm. Any ideas which props I should use? I want to keep it scale-ish, there are some Rabosch brass props in the correct size but I don't know if they'd look right for a pre dreadnought.
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Nick B

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colin-d

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2013, 01:27:23 PM »

Hi Nick
 
there are a lot of interesting Victorian era vessels.... from big battle ships to small mine layers
 
to give you an idea what the Raboesch props look like on the Hannibal..... i think they look OK, then again i am not one of the bigest rivet pickers..  :o
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2013, 01:34:28 PM »

Thanks Colin


They look the part, I'll be ordering some of them from Ron this afternoon, I'm hopefully taking the hull to Ron's Open Days in a few weeks time and would like to have the hull ready for some trials on his boating lake. I'm taking the kit back to work with me next week so I've got something to do at night time, its very strange, a lot of RAF lads seem to be interested in her! So fingers crossed she'll look something, ready for the open day.
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2013, 08:50:11 PM »

Hi everyone


After a hectic week at work (if you know my current job is you'll know what I'm on about!) I couldn't do any work on the Prince George- quite annoying but hey that's life in a blue suit (whoops RAFisms :police: ).


When I returned home on Friday I decided that I would use the plans in the Warship Vol VII in conjunction with the kit plans, which meant that the rudder had to be remade.





So after the decision was made I removed the old plastic card rudder and the rudder post from the hull. Using the plans I drew up a new rudder on to some thin brass sheet, and filled in the old rudder post hole.





I found some brass rod which was the same diameter as the old rudder post and shaft and carefully soldered them together, not a perfect job but looks more accurate, just needs a proper clean up.





In addition to the new rudder I decided that the prop shafts looked too skinny so once again with the plans in Warship Vol VII I beefed them up with plastic card strip coated in car body filler, smoothed whilst wet and sanded round in shape. A bit more filling and sanding is required on the shaft to finish it off, I've only done the port shaft at the moment but it makes all the difference.





A special thanks to Colin-d for showing me pictures of the Rabosche props and Deans Marine for the quick delivery, they arrived Thursday morning, they really do look the part, they are only temporarily attached to show everyone what they look like.





The hull will be ballasted tomorrow morning at Wicksteed Park model boating lake, so we will see how much lead will need to be added to the batteries, motors, foggy unit and the deck/superstructure.
HMS Prince George will be on display on Saturday at the Deans Marine Open Days, hopefully looking a bit more majestic!
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2013, 08:07:19 PM »

Hi everyone


Took the hull to Wickies today for the ballasting trials  {-)  What a laugh!
The hull got some attention before it even reached the water from some of our local sailors, but she eventually got launched- no champagne but some bread and butter pudding cake from a club secretary was eaten in its honour!


However, plans never go as planned and sure as water being wet I quickly realised that what I had bought with me was not enough- no way near enough!!!  :embarrassed:


Initially I had two 12v 7amp/hr SLA batteries, two 12v car heater motors, and one 24v foggy unit Mk 1from MMB.
The hull sat there laughing at us! So out came two 6v 4amp/hr batteries- nope still not much happening! Another two batteries came out, then all 5lbs of lead sheet I had brought from home (no I didn't nick it- honest  :police: ) and still it sat 1.5inches too high.
So WPMBC members gathered what they had spare and promptly a tub of lead was sitting on top of the motors, still not enough, Chuffy lent me two 5000amp NI-Cads, Nigel put in his big battery pack, and some small rx batteries were put in!!! At the end of twenty minutes she still sat 1/4" higher than she should but it was enough to test her stability- very good in the calm waters but only time will tell what she will be like in rougher conditions!
I took her out and we went home to weigh the her, it was a big shock to discover that the ballast I bought with me weighed 30lbs! So with the extra ballast borrowed from the club it looks like she will be weighing at approx 32-34lbs!














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Nick B

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tghsmith

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2013, 09:29:48 PM »

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #67 on: September 02, 2013, 09:19:25 AM »

Same as Canopus at 35/38 pounds overall. Predreadnoughts are quite stubby in hull shape and indeed take quite a lot of ballast to bring them down to the waterline. Being quite beamy they are also very stable.
 
In Canoups I used concrete blocks cast to shape sitting either side of the boiler and deliberatlety not too low as otherwise models tend to "bob" a bit.
 
You need have no concerns in building lightly with this model!
 
Enjoy
 
Geoff
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2013, 10:28:21 AM »

Hi Nick,
i could show you an Admiralties plan Rudder...  :-))
 
and with a bit of luck, we can have a chat at the Deans Open days...
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #69 on: September 02, 2013, 11:11:02 AM »

Hi
 
This project is looking good! When I built Mars, I got my grandson (about 10 at the time) to help with ballasting the hull in the bath. When we had it trimmed to the waterline, I got him to weigh the hull and everything we put into it and multiply the result by 96 cubed. The result came out at around 14,000 tons. So we weighed a battleship in the bath! Incidentally, he got an 'A' in GCSE maths just the other day.
 
In operation Mars carries 2x 12v 12AH gel cells for deep draft or 1x 12AH + 1 x 6AH for shallow draft. She can run for at least 6 Hrs on one 12AH cell. One note is to thoroughly restrain these heavy batteries. When I had a runaway with the old 40 Mhz radio, she went full astern into a parked rowing boat and the 12AH battery slid right aft, almost submerging the quarterdeck.
 
I'll bring Mars to Ron's open day, along with the soon? to be complete Niobe.
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2013, 11:20:10 PM »

I'm certainly enjoying myself with the build, especially when I'm not working! Might be working 12-14 hour days- boo <:(


With regards to the ballast trials yesterday I was just quite surprised how buoyant the GRP hull is- I'm usually used to a much heavier hull made from wood, our first model a 1/12 scale RAF Air Sea Rescue launch weighed in at 30lbs but half of that weight was hull!
I'll be looking forward to chatting to you all and comparing our models at the Deans Marine open days.
Colin-  I would really like to see the original Admiralty plans of the rudder most grateful for your offer, I'll see you at the open days.
Tonight I have cut out the port 3pdr bow gun in the hull and built up the casemate, and marked out the stern walk. Tomorrow night the starboard bow gun will be cut out and made and maybe build all the 4inch guns whilst the glue dries.
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »

I massively re-inforced the sternwalk with radial 1/16" rods about 1/2" spacing which were sandwiched between the .040" plasticard layers and then heat welded with a big soldering iron on the inside, squashing the layers together. Then the radiating rods, about an inch long, were encased in a solid clod of P40 on the indside. This paid off during the runaway episode when the sternwalk took the full force of the impact!
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2013, 10:58:50 PM »

I was looking at a similar method when you mentioned your runaway episode, I have to be careful with my insect class gunboat in reverse and in tight turns near the lake edge because the rudders project about 3inches from the stern! The only difference is that at least I can make the stern walk stronger!
Tonight I have made the 4inch 12pdr guns for the port secondary battery, made up of five white metal parts, I cleaned up and super glued the parts together, next I will be cutting the vac form gun shields away from the sheet and gluing them into position. I'll upload the pictures this weekend.
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #73 on: September 04, 2013, 08:54:47 PM »

So far tonight...


I have been studying the drawings I have to locate the torpedo net shelves and have marked them out on the hull, does anyone know why the shelves are at different heights?- there is a clearly visible step between the outer shelves and the middle one.
Any way, I have drilled out the supporting rods for the stern walk but taking on Victorians advice I will be fixing them in place with P40. Unfortunately I can't stick the stern walk floor plate into place because I forgot to pick up the plastic card sheet from home with that part on it!  :embarrassed:  But at least it's ready for application when I go home on Friday. I'm making the starboard 4inch guns tonight to finish off the visible secondary armament on the superstructure. More pictures will be upload when I get home.
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Re: HMS Hannibal-Majestic class Pre-dreadnought
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2013, 06:57:29 PM »

Hi everyone


been very busy today with the build, I'll start with the pictures from last week of the 4 inch guns.





The guns of course don't sit on the shelter deck roof, they sit beneath in the currently closed doors on the superstructure, but it gives the impression of being armed to the teeth!








This is the picture I'm using for colour and basic layout of the model, apart from a picture of the launch of HMS Prince George this is probably one of the earliest photos of her (sorry about the flash!). You can see the torpedo net shelf which I have marked out on the GRP hull but if you look closely at the bow in front of the anchor bed you can see the 'bow chaser' 3pdr gun enclosure. The strange thing about it is if look through a magnifying glass you can see that the gun is being sheeted in which leads me to believe that either she is being repaired or being completed ready for service.





More pictures to come...  :-))
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