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Author Topic: HMS Illustrious 87  (Read 109292 times)

ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #225 on: July 31, 2016, 04:57:05 PM »

I look forward to seeing this  :-))
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #226 on: August 01, 2016, 12:25:06 PM »

Here are the photos with the ballast plates bonded in which will hold 1.53 kg of lead at the keel and at the lowest point.  Then the next photos show the lower deck in place with the position of the drive motors.  This again is low down so that the hull is pushed through the water and not pushing the bow upwards requiring more weight in the bow then is necessary.  Also the rudder pivot guide is in place and ready to be sealed in place. 
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #227 on: August 01, 2016, 08:03:40 PM »

Cripes, she's bigger than your caravan Paul! I like the layout, it is all coming together nicely  :-))
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #228 on: August 06, 2016, 04:38:57 PM »

Before I put the first coat of Epoxy onto her I need to make a flight deck that fits nice and evenly.  The first deck I cut was a template to ensure the hull was within the 1/96 tolerance.  It helped me to ensure the beam was correct.  I ended up with about 1.5 mm wider then the template. Not bad for my first plans build.  So made up some cards and laid them along the hull and marked out the actual beam and then cut this out and draw the out line on the new deck.  I also left 1 mm to extra to leave space for error.  So will cut the new deck and then mark all the small decks and overhang's which are on the plans to match the hull.
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #229 on: August 06, 2016, 08:39:01 PM »

Excellent Paul. I look forward to see the deck in progress.
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #230 on: August 07, 2016, 12:01:05 AM »

Paul............that hull looks superb..... O0

In studies of naval architecture, it's a bit like PlaySchool :o....lets make a hull with a beam of 29.2m.....OK?......well then lets draw sets of subcomponents to equal the nominated beam.....but all of the subcomponents must be +/- toleranced for the plate cutters.....then the hole punchers come in & punch all of the plates for riveting........then the riviters come in & say these rivet holes in the plates don't quite line up >>:-(
 
Principal [as calculated] hull dimensions of warships of this era were established from cumulative sets of sub components......

+/- tolerances on each sub component would have certainly altered the as built dimension

The builders plans may nominate her beam as 29.2m, however if we could walk on her midships deck today with a new 30m tape, I doubt we would find an actual dimension of 29.2m.............

Dismiss any further thought of your scale build being out of tolerance.........Derek
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Derek Warner

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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #231 on: August 14, 2016, 05:21:43 PM »

More work done. All spoon decks have been bonded in and sealed and filled to make a smooth finish also the rear flight deck support structure has been added to ensure the stern looks like the real thing.  New deck is about to be cut and the epoxy job ready to start on Monday if the weather is nice and warm to allow the first coat to cure.  Here is hoping.
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #232 on: August 15, 2016, 08:40:47 PM »

The first coat has been applied of the XCR Epoxy resign.  As the mixture is by weight I mixed small proportions of 32 grams, and applied a very light coat to see how much would be needed to do the whole hull.  So after 6 mixes of 32 grams I covered the whole hull but very lightly, no heavy coat.  Think I will apply a second coat before I apply the fibre matting.  Will leave for 24 hours to ensure it has cured.
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #233 on: August 16, 2016, 11:09:15 AM »

OK a bit of help need here please.  I would like to know which would be the best way or better way to lay the fibre matting.  The first photo shows the whole hull covered and would need to be trimmed and cut at the stern and the whole process would need to be done in one go.  Or the other option as photos 2 to 3 show me doing the hull in sections with less waste and can be done section by section.  but there will be joins or over laps in three places or will these not be seen when the epoxy coat is applied.  Your help and advise from anyone who has done this before would be appreciated. 
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steve pickstock

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #234 on: August 16, 2016, 11:34:36 AM »

Get some mates round and go at it mob-handed, cover it all with one piece.
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Dr.Schmidt

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #235 on: August 16, 2016, 11:50:16 AM »

Definitely one go.......slow curing epoxy and work from one end to the other.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #236 on: August 16, 2016, 01:25:58 PM »

Don't forget the best way is to use small rollers starting from the middle and spreading out. You only need enough resin to wet the cloth through and ideally have the grain show through when you are finished. Too much resin will cause runs which will be very difficult to remove. On my battleship I overlapped the cloth in some areas but did it one piece length ways for the bottom then one piece for each of the sides overlapping on the bilges.


I then put on another 3-4 coast of thin resin to build up the surface to give room for wet and dry sanding. This eliminated any ridges left by overlapping the cloth.


If you can do it in one piece so much the better but I think due to the hull shape you will have to make some cuts for overlaps anyway. The cloth does have some stretch in it but not a huge amount.


I also fibre-glassed the inside as well with several cloth thicknesses where I felt there were potential stress areas.


Probably the main thing is to have everything ready, mix the resin in a flat tray - a cup will cause overheating and will set the resin in minutes - very messy - guess how I found this out! And get stuck in, don't be shy about it as you can cure any imperfections later.


With a hull that size some mates will really help you. Remember the hotter the day the faster the resin will cure so maybe do this early in the morning when the temperature is not too hot but you have the rest of the day for it to warm up and cure.


Good luck


Geoff
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #237 on: August 16, 2016, 02:18:29 PM »

Thanks guys, I have laid the matting the full length and will let it lay in the hull over night.  This will I hope let the matting settle to the bottom of the hull.  Should I cut off all the excess matting and leave only a couple of inches to allow for shape making around the spoonson decks and the stern for the centre and rudder.  I was going to use a spatula/paint scraper to spread the resign and then use a 2 inch brush to mat it in. Am I wrong the roller is the best to use for the large areas and a brush for the small rounded areas.   
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #238 on: August 16, 2016, 02:35:45 PM »

I've always found that a brush drags the fibreglass whereas a roller just pushes down. Some people use an old credit card but personally I would be very wary of using any brushes beyond a stippling motion. Once you get resin on it can all be quite slippery and you could literally pull one end and more it several inches. I would do cut outs for the various support bulges.

Its actually quite easy to do provided you are prepared. If you get a crease have a sharp pair of disposable scissors or a very sharp knife and a board to rest the fibreglass on to make a cut. You can then pull it all back into shape.

Its also fine to miss a bit and stick a patch on as once dried and several coats of resin applied it can easily be sanded smooth.

Its fine to allow a good overlap at the deck edge which can be cut off when its gone green, not fully set, with a sharp knife.

Be prepared for some fine filling and sanding once done but the fibreglass adds considerable strength and cohesion to the whole hull structure.

Cheers

Geoff
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #239 on: August 18, 2016, 02:04:26 PM »

After a day of learning I have now finished the bonding the fibre matting to the hull.  Not a great perfect job but at lease I have learnt from it.  1st lesson with a large hull with protruding decks cut the fibre to suit the main hull in one piece if possible to suit the hull.  Then cut the protruding decks as required and bond to the area required.  Mix only small amounts of epoxy to work with and work from the centre of the hull out wards.  I used a brush, did try the roller but it would not work well with the Epoxy as it started to go off and you need a tray with a fare amount of epoxy in it.  So I have quite a few air bubbles to contend with and edges around the bilge keel to trim off.  Have a few large areas of runs too.  So when cured I will add more coats and then rub down and trim the high spots.  So I am a bit disappointed with the end result of my hull so will have to work out how to smooth it out.
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derekwarner

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #240 on: August 18, 2016, 02:42:24 PM »

Don't be disappointed Paul.......I have only epoxy + glass matted 2 hulls ...both with woven mat not that random layered material

You could consider after the initial curing, grinding a burst hole in the bubbles & do a supper rough sand down  <*< to remove any large or substantial runs or feathered mat...you can also strategically add small mat sections to delicate shaped areas ...Super glue can be used to advantage here in tacking the small sections of mat down ....before you apply the next epoxy coat

Derek
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #241 on: August 18, 2016, 02:55:49 PM »

The beauty of fibreglass is that its all fixable. Just cut out or sand down the rough areas and put a small patch over them with an overlap with no loss in strength. Once all fixed a couple of thin coats of resin will blend it all in so you can readily sand away any minor imperfections. Car body filler is also good to get a smooth finish.

Good luck

Geoff
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #242 on: August 18, 2016, 09:55:02 PM »

Have cut out all the areas which had big air bubbles and areas that just did not bond to the hull.  Sand papered down to remove the high edges.  Used a scalpel  to cut away small areas.  The bilge keel area is the worsted effective area.  Will need to trim and sand down to remove the sharp edge.  I just feel that all that hard work in making the hull than sandpapering it to a nice smooth finish with nice crisp cures and edges ruined by the fibre matting not laying as smooth as one would like. So will wait till tomorrow and cut sections of matting and epoxy them in and try to make the edges as smooth as possible.  Then will try the final couple of coats of epoxy to give me a mirror finish ready for the final rub down.  Here is hoping. 
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John W E

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #243 on: August 19, 2016, 08:15:00 AM »

hi there
Sad to say after many years of experience with fibreglass resins and epoxy resins there is only one good way of obtaining the finish you are seeking for your hull.   The way to achieve this is to strip it all back, right to planking - using very coarse wet n dry.   Do not use power tools, such as belt sanders because this may cause heat build up which will cause greater damage to the internal woodwork of the hull.

Stick to the hard graft of wet n dry to remove the current epoxy resin and matting.    Elbow grease.

Sadly, you will then have to remove the bilge keels which you have already put on - because you will never get a moulded sharp corner.

if you do - the corner will be very weak and will tend to crack.

When you start the procedure of laying up matting again - the method I would use is:

First of all, measure off the hull and divide it into say 3 sections per side - into easily workable areas.    Then cut your matting to suit these areas, allowing at least an inch overlap between the pieces. and then give the whole of the hull a first coating of epoxy resin.  Allow this resin to 'go tacky' and then you begin to lay another coating of epoxy resin over the top of the centre section - lay your matting over the top of this and draw the epoxy resin through the matting with a stippling motion and you also require a small ring roller to work the resin through.

When you have done that section either move to the other side and do that side, then move on to either the forward section of the hull and then the back section.

Allow all of this to harden off for at least a day and night - then give the whole lot another 2 coats of epoxy resin and allow that to harden off for 3-4 days.

You can now sand the hull with wet n dry and bring it up to the desired finish.

Dig out the build of HMS York you will see how I achieved this in that build.

Add your bilge keels when you have finished the sanding of the hull and this will give you the edges that you require.

John
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Stumps

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #244 on: August 20, 2016, 06:57:05 AM »

Hi,

Probably closing the stable door etc.. but there a method used by the flyers when covering their models which uses peel ply as away of getting a smooth surface and not using too much resin...

here are a couple of links to guy on youtube which shows the method used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ3O0o_MQ6o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvgNYS5dVo4

Stumps
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #245 on: August 20, 2016, 04:06:34 PM »

The first two photos show the hull with her first coat of epoxy, the next group show the type off flaws that I have created with trying to do it all in one go with small cuts to help in going round curves.  I have rubbed down the effective areas and have patched the places that I had to cut out.  Once these are cured off, will do as many very thin coats of Epoxy as I can with the amount I have left.  That could be three or four, depending.  Then the rubbing down and using P38 to fill in the blemishes that I find.  Once done will leave for a few days and then give the hull its first coat of primer, and see how she looks, may have to rub down again if any high spots are found.
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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #246 on: August 24, 2016, 01:25:20 PM »

keep at it and you will get the finish you require. main thing is to address all the problem areas in one go and to sand back to a smooth surface before patching. Once all done several thin coats of epoxy will give you enough to sand back to the finish.


If you want to do plate lines may I suggest thin plastic card stuck with evo stick - let the fumes evaporate before you join to prevent buckling of the plastic card.


Other people just mask off with clear tape and use paint to build up the plate lines which also works well.


You will get there.


I would recommend fibreglassing the interior as well for added strength. Obviously use small pieces to fit between the bulkheads.


Cheers


Geoff









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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #247 on: August 24, 2016, 03:05:02 PM »


I would recommend fibre glassing the interior as well for added strength. Obviously use small pieces to fit between the bulkheads.


Cheers


Geoff


Thanks for the advice Geoff.  I am not so sure about fibre glassing the interior of the hull.  If water was to get passed the fibre and epoxy on the out side of the hull but did not get into the hull it would rot the planking and before I new about it my hull would be ruined.  So if I leave it as it is I will see water inside and then can do something about it and repair the leak.
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Paul Swainson

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #248 on: August 24, 2016, 03:09:37 PM »

1st coat of epoxy has been applied used a 24 grams of epoxy with 8 grams of hardener (3 to 1 mix) which covered the whole hull with a thin coat and no runs.  Will apply another coat when dry and see how the hull looks.  I think at this point I will then rub down with wet and dry and then apply two more coats and see what the finish look like.
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John W E

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Re: HMS Illustrious 87
« Reply #249 on: August 24, 2016, 05:04:11 PM »

hi there
For the fear of typing another invisible posting - here goes :-)   :D

As far as fibreglassing and sealing the internals of the inside of a wooden hull - personally - I would say go ahead and do it :-)

for the simple reason - bare wood, even painted wood - when wet, will expand and where you have one side of the timber sealed with your Epoxy Resin and the other side of your timber free to move and expand, it will split away from the Epoxy Resin as it expands and also split at the joints.  The is because there is nowhere else for the wood to expand evenly - if therefore you seal the hull with Epoxy or Fibreglass Resin it will prevent any water penetration and therefore eliminate the chance of expansion.

The only things is, one has to double check and ensure that every bit of planking that is visible inside the hull is well sealed.   The other thing is polyester resin is NOT 100% waterproof.

Epoxy is the better option for sealing.

I also have done this to life-sized wooden hull to seal them, using the West System of Epoxies and I do have some models which I did about 30-35 year ago - and they are still going strong.

John the invisible

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