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Author Topic: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180  (Read 41186 times)

warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2016, 05:02:57 PM »

Well finally an update - here is the pulleys from amazon - 3.84, had to buy something else but now they are here.

We are doing some 'repairs to the house - may not see them, but they were needed and waiting upon my son coming back from texas is holding up major work until next year.

will need to build a test bed etc and get the ball rolling again, so may be some time before I do another update, the hull has been languishing on top of my computer since I last updated.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #101 on: September 12, 2016, 10:03:05 PM »

Here's a question to the sail community, a sail winch whether it rotates once or twice etc., is it controllable that is to say does it go from one end of travel to the other, or does it stop part way along depending upon where the stick on the TX sits, I also assume the 25mm drum is 25mm od and the groove is 23/22mm, why, well the design previously turned through an angle still only gives 17mm effective travel from end to end - its not the servo/ pulley arrangement that's the limiting factor, its the proposed tensioner (a sketch will be forthcoming soon) due to the size of the spring etc. the over all length is 31mm for a single spring and 47mm for a double spring, this has to translate into 17 or 34mm below deck, leaving very little to turn or above deck before hitting the turn point to the yards.

the concept is ok its the practicalities for making it accessible to repair / remove, the servo is also quite small to fit in the available space, and all I can find is standard sized servo bodies on any winch servo (seems everything is to be big to account for large forces - no requirement for small servos and lite operations).
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2016, 08:30:57 PM »

Well here is the tensioner design, might not come out that well, it basically is a rod with ends that allow a M2 bolt (so larger than shown) constrained inside tubing etc with an effective throw of 17mm or 16mm to be safe.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2016, 08:38:21 PM »

This how one arrangement works, a straight linkage to pull 17mm using a small servo
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2016, 08:42:12 PM »

and the other arrangement.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2016, 08:44:01 PM »

As you can see (just) is that they scale of the vessel limits the linkage movement, so a sail winch may be the only way to go so will try and sketch that up.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2016, 08:53:10 PM »

It makes sense as sailing models mostly seem to use winches. The sketches are a wee bit too small to see with clarity, could you enlrge them by say 30%? Especially as you have gone to the effort to draw and upload the for us:O)
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2016, 08:58:57 PM »

exporting them doesn't lend it self to the software I have, will experiment and try later, it's looking more and more difficult to think of ways to give the idea creedance, I know a standard servo will sit inside the hull - its whats inside the sovereign to operate the swivelling masts, its whether or not a sail winch will fit with the associated drum, and I am unsure if the rotation is proportional to the stick movement or either one end or the other.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2016, 11:55:23 AM »

Here is another go at the tensioner sketch
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2016, 11:58:00 AM »

Changing the ends to suit a 2mm screw or smaller by creating a flattened end and shaping with a dremel is the idea as bending the bar around pliers would misshape it to much.
Now to get on with reissuing the sketches done before.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2016, 12:11:55 PM »

Hopefully these are better, the last one is a representation of a standard sail winch.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2016, 12:47:46 PM »

Its facing the wrong way round to be any use as it means dismantling it to get the thread to fit back on or if it jams, as there is no space to get access then it has to be discounted. 17mm throw on the tensioner is insufficient to account for any slack, even if the ropes are tightened with the tent guide rope idea, as in use the item may slacken off whilst out on the water, then no effect. 
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2016, 08:42:48 PM »

Hm, back to the drawng board.
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JerryTodd

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Square rig control
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2016, 07:19:01 PM »

There's several ways to control a square rigger at this scale, the most common is an ordinary servo with the widest arm you can manage to fit.  The braces run up to one of the tops'l yards (not the coarse)  and are attached to the yard the same distance from that center that they are on the arm below.  We refer to this as parallelogram bracing.   The other tops'l yards are typically links to each other so all three move together.  If you have the space, a second servo can operate the fore-tops'l yard separately for better control of the model.

The heads sails can be run from the same arm that controls the foremast yards, using a sliding knot sheet as show in the attachment (I hope there's an attachment).  The sheet runs from the servo through the clew of the jib and back to the servo.  A pair of knot grab that sail and pull it to one side or the other.  You can operate overlapping heads'l this way.

The spanker sheet too, is handled by the main/mizzen servo.  It's fairlead is place at the arm in it's centered position.  This is the sheeted out postion.  Either way the arm moves from centered, it pulls in the sheet.  It'll be inboard of the braces on the arm, most likely as it requires less length to be pulled.

warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #114 on: October 02, 2016, 07:38:53 PM »

fitting another servo inside is not a problem with space, it's the associated weight, the more inside means a deeper sailboard to counter the effect - even if it is below the perceived water line, no offence - theres a lot of nautical rigging terms that I cannot fathom, and those that I do know would fit on a postage stamp.

I have an idea but I need to find the energy if not resources to do the testing, things are back on hold for now, as I am still looking for another job (I need to get out of the one I am in as its making me depressed  >:-o).
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #115 on: January 08, 2017, 12:33:04 PM »

well an update, my loft and the kitchen are my work areas, the former I have been boarding out in 5.5mm ply and insulation, it gives the shed feel and insulates the roof space, any way as its raining I cannot cut the wood to cover a wall I am cladding, so I did a bit on the victory.

This is the sailboard rudder, as its about centre to the hull, forward of the main mast, to assist in turning the vessel, this rudder is being incorporated into the sailboard, in that the flat area between the keel and the bulb is used.

the following photo's are
1. The parts - outer tube, inner tube, and rudder plate (this will be drilled to allow epoxy etc to secure the lighter plasticard rudder).
    Note that the outer tube (about 1/8" dia.) has a cut out about 52mm long extending to about the centre line i.e. leaving about half the tube, the inner tube
    (2.38mm dia.) has a slot cut into it to allow for the rudder plate to be inserted.
2. The inner tube inside the outer tube, the brass tube selected was to be as light as possible as I want the weight to be at the lowest point.
3. The rudder plate fitted to the inner tube.
4. The whole lot assembled.

As you can guess the rudder plate will have to be tinned prior to soldering, and great care taken to ensure that solder does not transfer between the tubes, a bigger diameter tube would probably have been a better idea but this is only a trail and has to keep the weight down.

Next up will be to solder this and before I do that I will need to create the leading edge first, so that this can be soldered on at the same time to reduce the risk of the rudder plate from falling out.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #116 on: January 08, 2017, 05:01:34 PM »

Well, the following is the forward section of the sail board, then the mod to the outer tube after shortening the inner tube, and the whole lot fitted together, just have to design the servo support for both the sail winch and small servo that will turn the rudder, getting these right is important as once the outer tube is cut the inner tube is cut down when the arm is fitted then its all set in stone, I have to remove the inner tube and rudder plate and then cut the outer tube.

before all that, is the all important water test, so some judicial bundling of parts together is required and then setting up the test.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2017, 06:16:05 PM »

Recently someone mentioned using tippex correction fluid to control where the solder goes, so painting a layer covering the gap between the tubes would help you reduce risk of capilliary soldering where you don't want it.

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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2017, 08:07:50 PM »

but that stuff is a "xxxxx" to get off as well and may be as bad as the solder  {-)
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dreadnought72

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2017, 10:23:55 PM »

You've a rudder in the middle of the boat?


That's not going to work.


Andy
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2017, 10:24:07 PM »

That's the plate that holds the rudder plastic, the idea is that it changes the flow under the center, from sailing sovereign she always seemed to spin on centre, the plastic rudder will extend up to half her length - the middle half, its not complete yet and is just an idea.

Any other detractors before I carry on?, I can always rethink it, the idea is to shift the weight i.e. the bulb etc. up front to counteract the weight of the battery in the rear.

this size of boat doesn't sail very fast anyway - not like a footy or a Marblehead, infact, as with sovereign who sailed more backwards putting the rudder up front might have the better advantage, lol.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #121 on: January 12, 2017, 08:47:26 PM »

dreadnought72 - put a spanner in the works  {-) - haven't been able to think about anything all day at work, other than redoing the sailboard, the other problem with moving the rudder to the stern is that it restricts the amount of space for the battery, I was trying to avoid putting it at the rear as it is very tight, and the last time the solution was not very elegant and gets in the way.
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dreadnought72

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #122 on: January 12, 2017, 10:59:53 PM »


...from sailing sovereign she always seemed to spin on centre...


And there's the answer why it won't work.

Any rudder when deflected port or starboard from its centreline generates lift, a force in a horizontal direction. Most displacement hulls (like your Sovereign) will tend to pivot about a point more-or-less midway along their keel. By putting the rudder at the transom and creating a moment arm, that lift*distance generates a torque, which enables a hull to turn.

What you have there will generate lift, though much nearer the pivot point: resulting in virtually no torque, but plenty of drag.

If space at the stern is really restricted, you might well be better having the rudder at the front.

Andy

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JerryTodd

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #123 on: January 13, 2017, 12:55:18 AM »

The lift, in that configuration, will also generate heel, which a model that small will already have an abundance of.

warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #124 on: January 13, 2017, 09:22:16 PM »

Thanks, will relocate the rudder and extend the sail board, longitudinally, but try to remove the weight, the 'triangular bit' will go as close to the front as possible with a small thin flat plate running from the bottom of the triangle to the rudder post.
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