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Author Topic: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180  (Read 41897 times)

warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #50 on: April 26, 2016, 11:03:17 PM »

Since we moved into this house 24 years ago, we have mod the central heating system a couple of times with a fresh boiler in 2005 and replacement radiators and altering the pipe run a couple of times, when a tradesman turns up and when me and my father and father in law have dabbled in our own endevours to alter the system I bought plumbers solder and two types of flux a small pink tin and a black tub, both have been used and are as good as each other though the tub gets used more since its easier to open, the solder is about 4-5mm diameter (I know well oversized) but I am using it up, I do have some electrical flux cored for electronics, ideal for the more intricate work, lately though (if 2 years is lately) it has been heavy duty stuff like this, it blackens up fast and yes some solder is heavy, but the annoying thing the most is that those little grinders that come with multitools don't half go quickly when trying to give a grain/key for paint, it appears an industrial grinder disk is needed for a standard drill if it needs to be effective enough, but that's a dangerous Darwin award thought.

Paint - its not ronseal - matt 24 doesn't appear to reflect what is on the lid, 1st its more of a mustard, need a more yellower colour (like those thin central reservation bollards), 2nd its glossy, so next experiment is to apply a more rigorous mixing technique, see if that works, then spraying, to see if that improves the effect.

Foremast - did a boo boo last night, the platform to the foremast got glued on, why is that a problem, I was supposed to finish the bonding of the ali tube to the spars and other fasteners, then paint the spars and masts, also fitting this bit I didn't forsee how I was going to fit the shrouds so they looked right.

Sorry no photo's, forgot to take my phone to the loft, will catch up soon.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2016, 10:01:12 PM »

No worries. take your time and sort your stuff out :-))

Humbrol aint has of late been rather hit and miss in quality due to being made in China so while one can expect the colour to differ a bit between tin lid and contents, it should not fall into a different description. Bright yellow hould just be that and not a ocherish mustard! I have a tinlet of Matt varnish that is like treacle and a tin of 26 which is similar. They are both useable with brush painting, but to get the right mix for airbrusing would be fun at best.


 
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2016, 10:12:41 PM »

Well tonight's update - not a lot but here goes, the next set of photos consist of, in the foreground the middle mast of the fore mast with its hook, the main mast again with its hook and eye (hoping this arrangement works and is strong enough, no thread was used to secure it - just the epoxy), and in the background the midlle mast of the main mast with its hook, the top mast of all three will not be swivelling, just glued as normal and secured, with a stiffener (not sure yet what size to make it, will see about getting either some even thinner rod).

The incomplete foremast bundle  - all the items to assemble the foremast, shrouds, sails and various bits including the spars, but as they haven't been constructed yet then it's an incomplete set. This set is like this so when the stability test is undertaken I can tie it all together and just plug it into the top deck, in essence all its weight wont be far out when I determine the amount the sail board needs.

The bow sprite with its second coat of paint, they yellow is still too mustardy, but it will do, a more vigerous stirring using a 14.4v portable bosch drill (who's battery was not as charged) and a piece of sprue will lots of prongs sticking out - like a Montezuma Aztec sword  :D a slow rotation built up to a decent speed appears to have mixed it a bit better.

the gun carriages - the paint looks quite glossy, they were in their top deck and gun deck quantities but have now been separated into those that are for the relative decks by a certain criteria.

lastly - the 6 main decks guns with their cannons fitted, the 3 on the left are for the left side where the crew will be pulling the cannons into position, and the right side where the crew will be stood around preparing theirs, the same will be done for the gun deck where 5 will be putting the guns into position while the other side is getting ready, this bit is dependant on how much detail can be seen from between the boats and inside the gun ports - pointless if nothing can be seen, the first picture on page 2 shows what the guns look like on sovereign, with the side off you can see the guns quite well, but when she's closed up the area is like a dark pit.

The next two pictures are the pastels I will be trying to create the decks with, hopefully I might get some tips from others when / if they see this.  %)
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2016, 10:22:24 PM »

My matt black has started to deteriate, its going like it's been mixed with water, clumpy, well it's nearly two years since it was last opened (I still have tinlets from 1982), not sure whether to get another fresh tin (this was a big tin of matt black - its probably had about half either evaporate or be used and is about 10-15 years old) a couple of small tinlets might do.  :embarrassed:
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2016, 08:45:06 PM »

Definitly replace. The Humbrol tins do let the air in after a times used and even goes off in a sealed tub.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2016, 09:30:44 PM »

Well tonights endeavors will be shown when I start part two, all I have done is cut the aluminium tube and epoxied it to the spars, I will photo them before adding the 'eye', then I can proceed on to the mizzen mast, collate and tie together the bits and then wait till I get to the shop for some thin rod for the top sails bonding session, and paint to finish of the bow sprite, namely a new tin of matt black.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2016, 12:35:08 PM »

So the next are the new provisions and what the inside of the vessel is like after my attempt at rattle can application ( the taped bits were to allow me to affix bits without having to scrape the paint off again - need more thought next time).

the wire is for the top spars and will act as stiffeners (pictures to follow), the small tin of enamel is the detail since my large tin has started to deteriote, but what is the Tamiya colour - it doesn't exactly say - is it enamel, acrylic ?
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2016, 04:35:19 PM »

Well taking a break while paint dries etc.

The first is the eyes and hooks which I am using, I hope they work.

The next is the main and middle spar of the foremast, with their ali tube strengthener,

The next is the first attempt to fit the eye on the main spar and then the middle spar, then I remembered - you aint painted it yet, and had to remove my efforts, duh.

Next this is the either the main mast main spar or middle spar.

Now the interesting bit, I have started the decking, following kpnuts suggestion for deck painting, here goes, the first using UBN's excellent photos's is the main gun deck, the wood appears to look like a light version of antique pine, and I need to know if any one thinks its a good comparison or I can wash it off and try again, whereas the main upper decks appear to be like ash when its 'greyed' off or silvered, so the next two show this effect, now remember the ships been at sea for a while and no matter how much scrubbing of the deck, its gonna look used, so the two lines behind the main mast are the wear pattern for the officers etc who walk this beat, the mizzen deck is probably not as used so is lighter in colour, I could still darken this off to be a closer match to that of the main deck - comments please?
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2016, 07:49:56 PM »

Well here is the next set of endevours, the cannons have their main rope attached, its not perfect but what do you expect at this scale  :embarrassed:

I had a play with the pastels and using my finger 'rubbed' the black and brown in a bit more, it's a bit better, and the antique pine effect is better with a bit more brown, the matt 24 stills shows through quite a lot but with the black and brown in a bit more its toning it down. Should I add more - not sure, just need the wife to get some hair spray and we can move on a bit more - I was going to mark out where the guns sit and put some black pastel on the wheels and pull them back to indicate running marks - not sure, I know there should be a blackening around the gun port from the powder residue but it might be a bit over the top.

I still have to fit the pulleys yet and I am trying to figure out what to do for them, hhmmm.

Now the bowsprite, (yep I painted it - the matt 24 got another good mix with the drill and sprue) it recommends Humbrol 10 for the wood, it's a bit glossy, as it is on sovereign, so opened my trusty stock of paint tins ( and I do mean OLD) and found a matt brown as you can see, I will try and remember what the colour is later, now for a bit of detailing, the spars are secured I suppose with rope, so out came the brown thread and I wrapped the yard with it - CAREFULLY  this time and its come out quite well, it just needs a coat of clear cote and its done, will do the same for the other spars and how do you put text between the photo's?
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2016, 07:26:45 PM »

Looking good. I like the idea of using the metal hooks. I wil try that one day. Regards the decks. There would be plenty enough crew members available to holy stone the deck daily. BUT. After action where powder and grot and soot from dscharde etc will have soiled the deck, then some filth would be expected.

I like to think of a warship as an organism. After a trauma such as battle damage, the cells (Sailors) with direction from the prions (Specialists i.e Carpenter and the like commnded by the Brains (Officers) will repair and heal the ship before normal routine returns including that darned deck scrubbing! Even later, Artificers would work to repair guns, engines boilers etc with help from sailors.

Anyhow, I don't think a bit of dirt is wrong if in the right context. Keep up the good work :-))
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2016, 11:16:18 AM »

Well, it appears windows update has sought to destroy my pc, so i'm on the XP side at the moment, till i figure what or hope to repair the win 7, so here is the up date from last night and hopefully later i might be able to add some more.
 
The brown paint is Matt 70, gloss 10 will be used generally but to keep the forard bits weathered i have used that as will other bits as i see fit  :} .
 
The bow sprite with the 'M' sail fitted, just the rigging to fit and it will be ready for installing.
 
A sea of main mast bits, painted and fitted with hooks and eyes etc.
 
And the fore masts (the two other parts are painted but are show in the background before that happened.
 
 
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2016, 12:37:44 PM »

Cripes, that is a lot of parts. She should look very intricate when complete. And she'll be a working model as well :-)
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2016, 02:02:28 PM »

Here is the next update - until i get into the loft to do some more, at the moment i am trying to fix the win 7 to no avail, restoring to a previous time doesn'y work and its annoying that some of the apps needed don't even open - like windows update - so i can uninstall the recent updates that have probably crashed it, even task manager is tempermental at opening, closing down doesn't work, it goes to black screen with the cursor in the middle for eons, so i am going to have to restart with opening the outlook and doing a pst file and try and see if i can find the settings so that i can do a complete reinstall from a windows image and if that doesn't work a completely fresh instal, any way back to the other fun item.
 
Because shes worth it  :}
 
The decks
 
The mizzen deck, not really sure about these colours, tried to do ash like UBN's photos (and failed), but may try something later before the detailing stage, using this as a base to work on top of, not sure if Humbrols acrylic varnish will react with what will go on top, provisionally more pastel and varnish (may consider trying to recreate the antique pine).
 
The main deck is even lighter, again may change it.
 
Now the good part, does this look like antique pine to you - it does to me, i am reasonably happy with the effect, its below decks so will be lost on those who cannot see inside.
 
The sails for the fore and main masts have been fitted, with the exception of the foremast top sail which is still drying from being painted, i'm going to the loft to start on the mizzen mast, using ali tube to replace yards for the large sail off the back, when the sails are next unfurled they are being treated to some clear coat at the sewed bits to strengthen the thread, i can't cut the threads till i am happy. The next two photo's are the way that i fitted the sails. I fitted the sails to allow for the assemblies to be strapped together for the stability test which i am hoping to get started next weekend - 1 weather permitted and 2 if i have managed to figure out what order to do things (that includes getting this pc to work properly).
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2016, 02:04:10 PM »

missed a photo
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2016, 02:22:24 PM »

An update on the quality of the kit - I still believe it is still better than the last one, but some issues have started to show them selves, there is a lot of stippling inside the hull around the bow and stern, sanding will get rid of the majority of this though, as with the previous kit the thinner sections of spars and upper masts are showing signs of warping and I have to add strengtheners to not only add rigidity (something i would have to do anyway), but straightening, there are a few kinks.
 
The grills in the upper and lower decks need opening out as the best detail is actually underneath,  {:-{ , for some reason, it would have been better if they had the prongs in the mould on the top, oh well.
 
The holes for the uprights between the decks, where the boats will sit were either not moulded or not penertrating so need drilling out, in fitting the mizzen deck I have noticed that i may need to remove the deck lugs on the hull to make the deck sit as it should, since i will be fitting a support strip like i did for sovereign, thats not a problem.
 
One other issue i have to concider is how much deck do i need to remove, the later part of the main deck is to go but should i do more and have it behing the ships wheel, its not more than 12mm to be gained, on sovereign i fitted a tube and it allowed the mizzen to slide into this to secure the mizzen deck to the ship, so may need to replicate this - watch this space.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2016, 08:03:15 PM »

Hm, some things to ponder. I like the weather deck it looks well stoned with some signs of recent activity. If the tube arrangement worked last time, I would not bother reinventing the wheel.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2016, 08:09:11 PM »

Well that went well - NOT  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( , how much i can stress this  >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( , one for each cannon i want to point at all the staff of MS. Had to reinstall win 7, the backups were a waste of time etc.
 
Anyway here is another photo to go on with, its the final sail fitted to the top yard of the foremast, got nothing else done with the boat, need to destress.
 
the next is the mizzen mast which has been modified yesterday its had the new yards fitted but not glued in yet.
 
then the final spar for the foremast
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2016, 08:15:03 PM »

Stoned - I like that phrase,  {-) , next time i'm in the loft (workshop) i'll photo the arrangement to show what i mean, it will mean adjusting the bottom of the mizzen and will need to check if i have some material to do it (i went one size up on all the diameters when doing the sovereign masts so that the smallest diameter was rod - now i have found even thinner rod i could have made everything thinner and therefore lighter - over engineering things).
 
Will be using the XP side of the pc until i get the win 7 side up and running, deep joy.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2016, 08:40:37 PM »

Procreating computers. You can't live with them and you can't live without them. Without them Mayhem would be a postal group with quarterly newsletters hand cranked by Martin having typed the templates out with his Olivetti, pasting grainy photos of stuff people have made.

Progress looks intricate.
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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #69 on: May 03, 2016, 07:41:30 PM »

Control - discuss,
 
While a sail servo is basically a beefed up version of a standard servo, and used for rotating an arm with the ends of the tethers fixed at each end, they usually have longer radii to rotate in, 70 i believe instead of the more common 45 about each centre, although well and good, they are also confined to the inside dimensions of the boat and the boat being 80mm wide that means i would be as well using a standard servo.
 
Sail winch, again about the size of a standard servo or can be smaller, weight as much (49g is the lightest i have seen for a standard sized unit), essentially a rotating pulley which rotates anything from 1.5 times to 8 times, which the tethers are wrapped around, unusual configeration is to have the tethers connected to the sail and taught to keep the tension on, or one end fixed to the pulley and it winds on the tether, the more accepted route is to have the tethers connected to a continous loop of thread that wraps around the pulley on the servo and the other around a pulley at the other end of the boat under spring tension so that it doesn't slip off, if slippage does occur, then the continous loop accounts for this as the distance it loops at is that of the pull required or there abouts.
 
Now this is not a big boat - its actually quite small at 80mm wide and 320mm long internally, access is extremelly small and if the thread breaks, unless your hands are about the size of a three year olds then there is no chance of tieing thread to a servo arm or wrapping the thread back around a pulley, so we go back to the solid linkage found in other attempts, rotating masts is an option at this early stage, but being refered to a girl, lol, means i need to discount this option, plus i want to make it as detailed as possible with the parts from the kit, i have an idea, it will require an experiment to see if the plan is feasable, but essentially, the idea is to have the inside bit so that access would not be required if a thread linkage breaks (a solid linkage breaking is a different kettle of fish).
 
One idea being toyed with, was to have the two decks removable, first the hull gets narrower as you move up the hull, though maybe enough to squeeze the lower deck past as an assemblyto the underside of the main deck, couple of other thoughts, how to seal sufficiently enough to allow water to enter the lower gun ports and not enter the hull or any other area as screwing down the deck would require the screws to pass through the top deck then through the bottom deck, unsightly as well, then there is the shrouds, these fit to the side of the hull, their platforms would need to be screwed to the hull, again unsightly, even painted black, they could be utilised to hold down the bottom deck if the holes and mating fixings on the decks matched up, eliminating deck screws, but, you see the problem.
 
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2016, 08:41:17 PM »

Well here is a picture of the experiment, pulleys etc rely on the requirement to lift a load, a single pulley with a load, 1 meter pull 1 meter lift, 2 pulleys, should be in fact 1m pull, 0.5m lift, so in this instance the distance to travel is 90mm say by a single wrap around the screw 90mm travel equals 90mm pull, wrap around the screw and around the studding nut and fix to the second screw = 90mm travel equals 47mm pull, about 0.5 pull, now 90mm travel around the 1st screw around the studding nut around the 2nd screw, around the studding nut again and fixed to the screw = 90mm travel equals 24mm pull, about 0.23 pull.
 
So if it can be made smoother to operate, pulling the studding nut pulley (if replaced with pulleys) and wrapped the same, every 24mm of pull will equal 90mm of thread travel, so assuming that the travel through 45 on a standard servo arm is say 6.3mm (outer hole) then it should mean that it should pull the end of the thread 22.5mm, still not enough, so how do you pull 90mm with the travel of 6.3mm, increase the servo arm radii, 4x should provide 4x pull, will try again, initially i was going to use the eye at the top of the main mast to be the pulley for moving the foremast spars, will need to see if another experiment will provide the rotation required.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2016, 08:59:36 PM »

Hm, lots to consider there. havng both decks made to come out can be done iff you make the removable part of the decks dimentionally the foot print of the hole they can be lifted through but this requires you do cut these parts out of the deck pieces and stick the outer section to the hull sides. This would make the hull stronger but there would be a gap around the removable piece into which water could trickle.

As for being described a girl for doing something a certain way; Its your blooming model, do as you want, tell em to 'Foxtrot Oscar' >>:-(

 There's a difference between an idea that is silly for common sense/ease of life issues, but this isn't the same as trying something out that you have worked on and testing it out.
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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2016, 10:55:49 PM »

It was a comment in jest to be honest  ;D , but it got me thinking over the last few months after that i got the new boat and the job took over and it wasn't till i got absolutley fed up with the current job that i decided to start this as a way of unwinding, early starts to miss traffic had me sat at work waiting to start, so with the abundant scrap paper started to work out the card board boats crane, then i decided - i know i will try to do the Victory - and here we are, currently with the pc not playing properly, that is taking over as i try to reinstall win 7 to the hard drive, need easus to clear the partitions as i have just formated the win 7 drive and its still got a partion on it, then i can try to fresh install win 7 again.
 
when weekend allows i have a plan to try a more near the mark experiment, using the type of eye hooks used on net curtains and see how that works, the previous experiment was going against screw threads and rough studding nuts, with the more rounded wire and shape of the eyes, there may be less resistance, if more eyes can be used to give a better pull then the next step would be to create a chain pulley from thick copper or brass rod so when painted they don't look out of place, the arrangement has to work duplicated so that when one side goes up the other side goes down if employed up the mast, i will try and do a sketch to show what is being planned, that way, a picture will show whats happening rather than a long text description. As far tensioning, the method used for guide ropes on tents will be used, to be honest the amount of force on the sails can't be that bad for sails this big, the issue is pulling a set angle to the deck and holding it at that angle, with  the wind unable to pull sufficiently to effect that angle.
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ballastanksian

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2016, 11:01:17 PM »

Fair enough! I wish you well with your computer alchemy and hope it returns you your sanity.

The magic element when making mechanisms that cannot be readily accessed is to make sure they are low wear, and utterly reliable. Experimenting is definitly the way to go especially to test an idea to destruction. If your mechainism continues working overnight without a nut coming loose or a friction issue melting someting then you should have a reliable system.

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warspite

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Re: Attempt number two for an Airfix Victory at 1:180
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2016, 11:07:26 PM »

The pc is currently back up and running, just a shed load of reinstalling to do - deep joy.

Part of the installing will be to get the picture resizer up and running, although I could re-attach the xp drive and do it there, the test was done - photo in the post to come, the test was to see what effect the eyes have, a more conclusive test to follow - a quick test was to see what the friction was going to be like - horrendous - the other test will be better as the thread is not sharing the same eye (most of my tools are in the loft).
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Operational - 1/72 LCMIII, 1/180 Royal Sovereign
Non Operational - 1/72 Corvette, 1/72 E-Boat, 1/72 vosper mtb
incomplete, HMS Victory, tug, cardboard castle class convert, got the new job, looking again though
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