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Author Topic: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th  (Read 33898 times)

crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2016, 02:18:21 pm »

Thanks Andy and Warspite for your respective suggestions - I can see that both ideas have considerable merits and but probably also a few drawbacks:


- painting might be an option but will be extremely cumbersome in terms of masking things off and using multiple different paint shades, and I wonder if it will yield the same 'dimpled' effect looking at it sideways as opposed to full frontal
- whereas applying fine wire will equally be quite an onerous job, and will need wire that does not unravel


I suspect I will need to do some more experimenting with shaping a thin material over a former of sorts, almost like baking waffles ! The indentations cannot be too deep as otherwise this will be overkill, and yet at the same time it should still show the paint reflection when viewing the model from an angle.
Guess I will be trying a finer grade of paper next, before considering either thin metal sheet or even ultra-thin plasticard. Need to get this right before trying on the hull itself, clearly - this is the sort of make-or-break-your-model-thing !
I am still hoping that using so-called rice paper will allow me to drench and subsequently mould a number of say 6 rows by 8 columns sections that I can then attach to the hull.
Not ruling out that the final conclusion may well be to let this idea rest rather than worth pursuing but willing to give it a go just for the challenge of it.


E
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John W E

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2016, 03:52:33 pm »

:-) Somewhere in the depths of me mind :-) either in a model boat magazine; or on the web somewhere - there was a guy who built a model - I believe it was of a Royal Naval Supply Vessel an RFA - and he assimilated the distorted plating by:

First, gluing on tailors threads which replicated individual plates - then covering the whole of the hull with car body filler.

When that had hardened, sanded it back down until the threads just became visible and then with a scalpel blade, which has a large radius, scrape out between the threads areas to represent distorted plating.   If I remember rightly, I am sure it took him well over 6 months.  Thing is, what we all have to remember, at 1:96 scale, you are going to have to be pretty close to the model to see this detailing.  You will only catch sight of it in certain light - is it really worth it?

It's not like replicating riveted plating on a ships hull, which stands out quite a bit more.

John
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NFMike

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2016, 06:14:45 pm »

Could you do this (pure theory) ... Get a domed grinding wheel (largest diameter possible) in a mini-drill and grind/sand out an indent where each plate is?
A few obstacles spring to mind, but it feels doable to me.

crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2016, 07:50:04 pm »

We have clearly hit upon an interesting topic here, {-)  and very refreshing to see how many ways and means that are being suggested !
I think trying out the various methods should yield the most appropriate solution, but at the same time I must confess I am beginning to wonder whether it is ultimately worth the hassle ! {:-{  Still, want to explore it further and see where it leads me.


Probably the only way to find out is to prepare a hull section, outline the required dimensions and try out the various methods described here, seal and paint as if it were the real model and then compare the various end results.
Will try and document this as much as possible, and hopefully photographs can show the sagging effect.


Thanks for all the ideas, will be trying them out one by one.


E
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warspite

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2016, 09:34:43 pm »

using the filler option and make an indented stamp, while the filler is still moist impress the stamp to create indents, first inscribe the lines and imprint between them, once dry fill in the lines and gently sand to retain a smooth surface, the stamp can be made by rounding a piece of square section wood or balsa
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2016, 09:44:58 pm »

I was wondering if adding the framing to the prepared hull then cladding the whole in the plastic film that model aircraft makers use would work? Then carefully applying heat to make the film contract. This could be applied in strakes and can maybe be bought in grey?

My thoughts are based on the fact that like aircraft, you have odd shapes to cover and so the film would be designed for this.

I think it is called Solafilm, though I expect there are other makes about these days.

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littoralcombat

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2016, 11:06:33 am »

What a great job you are doing, I am learning so much from your project! :-))
Regarding your earlier question regarding Sonar fit, the Type 162 consisted of three arrays, each a rectangular shape approximately 24inches x 6inches. They were flush with the hull and were roughly level with the aft end of the raised focsle (ish).
One was inset in the bottom of the flat bottom of the keel there, and the other two were just above on either side, about 12inches, facing down at roughly 45 degrees.
I seem to remember that they were not painted, and were fibreglass faced, so a creamy/green colour.


Keep up the good work.


Nige
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tghsmith

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2016, 04:18:28 pm »

a thin layer of filler or many layers of filler/primer (maybe several different colors for sanding depth recognition) https://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-28594-12-Volt-Pen-Sander/dp/B000NDGUXU   the sanding heads on something like this could be shaped as needed, draw out the "grid" on the hull and sand away..I have one of these sanders and it seems to work well for some things.. I make my own sandpaper pads, sandpaper + spray adhesive..
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #58 on: November 24, 2016, 11:20:24 am »

Finally took the plunge last night and did my first ever fibreglassing job - something that I was looking at with quite some trepidation.


Worked in two phases (the stern area had already been done so I was only left with the hull itself) and used a slightly different technique for each:


- did the port side first: applied a layer of resin + hardener over the entire length  of the hull, working from the keel down to the 'gunwhales', before laying on the cloth, and then worked more resin into the cloth once draped over the hull and then straightened things out.


- for the starboard side, I immediately laid the cloth onto the bare hull and only then worked the resin into the cloth, thus 'fixing' it in place, before continuing as before and 'pencilling' the folds out.


I used a broad paint brush that I can discard, 1/2' wide, which I felt was a good tool for the job.


I can see no difference in the end result, and not entirely sure which is ultimately the better method really - the first one gave me some stress in that clearly you have to be careful laying out a quite substantial surface of cloth without things folding up or causing wrinkles. Once in place however the second coat of resin is easier to apply without the cloth moving.
The latter method is easier to smooth out the cloth and avoid wrinkles, but at the same time there is more drag when applying the resin and you need to hold the cloth in place in the area you are working on.


Overall I am quite pleased, there are no air bubbles or folds so all in all things are quite smooth already. The only area where I was struggling was the section of the keel in between the prop shafts, where the cloth would not stay in place and follow the concave curve of the hull - I needed to make a slit with a  cutter and re-cover a small section of this area.
Remarkably enough I was expecting this problem, but just not in this spot - the bow area with all of its curves and roundings went swimmingly well by contrast, which came as a bit of a surprise...
Will need to rework this keel section as I had to make a small incision with the cutter to ensure the cloth ended up laying against the hull but also created an uncovered section by doing so.


The other lesson learnt is to ensure there is sufficient 'overhang' when laying the cloth over the model, say at least 1' - my cloth was barely covering the hull in one spot, with very little excess to spare, and this caused the cloth to unravel when brushing the resin into place.


The entire process must have taken a good hour or two, preparations included - will be adding a second layer of resin+ hardenener tonight once everything has dried out and remove the excess cloth.


A few snapshots to show the process


E
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #59 on: November 24, 2016, 11:27:26 am »

Hi Nige,


Thanks a million for the sonar info, this is really helpful. Let me make a sketch of the intel provided and if you don't mind will run this past you to see if I am getting this right.
I would also presume that the Type 162 set would be in front of the Type 177, which would sit approx. under the gun turret ?


Sadly enough pictures of Leanders in drydock are pretty rare and usually the sonar domes tend to be masked by the supporting blocks in the graving dock, so that is no help either.


Cheers, and thanks for your help again
E

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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2016, 04:20:38 pm »

Little to report by way of progress - hardly had time to do work on Argonaut, partially caused by the cold temperatures in my garage. This caused the last resin layer to cure far slower than the two previous ones, and I ended up taking the model indoors (much to the wife's chagrin  {-)  when I described it as the next big thing in indoor decorating !!) to try and speed up the process.


After 4 days things appeared to have completely dried, so now need to go for the final sanding run and can then spray my first primer coat.


Hope to be able to do some more work this weekend.


E
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spooksgone

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #61 on: December 07, 2016, 08:11:49 pm »

Liking this. Looking forward to the next chapter :-)) :-)) :-))
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steve pickstock

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2016, 07:28:33 am »

With regard to the dented plating - many years ago I saw a nice model of an RN frigate at a model show near me and the guy who had done it said that he had used a framework of thread across the hull, and then covered it with a layer of cigarette papers. He then painted it and varnished it. It looked quite effective.

I would imagine it would also take less than six months to do.
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2016, 01:51:51 pm »

For what its worth your planking and hull are really looking excellent, first class! I'm not certain how to suggest simulating the plating effect other than to counsel you make up a flat plate off the ship and try some experiments as that way you may well find the right technique or decide not to go that route.  - Keep up the good work   Geoff
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2016, 06:32:44 pm »

Thanks for all the advises chaps, Argonaut had a few uneventful days of late but managed to put in some work this afternoon.
Gave the hull a final rubdown using 240 grade sanding paper, before spraying the first coat of putty primer.
Discover one area where the glass matting was coming loose - see picture hereunder - so that will call for some remedying action.


Putty primer is pretty unforgiving, there is no escaping any bump or blemish once the hull has a bit of colour ! All in all relatively happy but clearly some more sanding required in places.
Had some left in the can so used it on the baby Leander that I still had in the attic, half the scale at 1/192nd so another project once Argonaut is finished.
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2016, 06:52:48 pm »

Also started to do some experimenting on the best simulation of the dented plating, and for now the moment the first idea to validate is to check what type of material would be best suited to 'draped' over a grid of sewing thread glued onto the plasticard.



Started by weaving a grid in the very same dimensions as would be applicable on this scale, and opted for the thinnest sewing wire I could find, together with a thick, flat piece of plasticard to simulate the full.


Tried two material in 3 combinations;


- on the very left I tried cigarette paper, impregnated first with Liquid Cement and then drenched with superglue
- in the middle, used wrapping paper impregnated with ordinary white wood glue
- on the right, cigarette paper again and white glue


Once finished, sprayed everything with putty primer.
No sure if the photographs display the results accurately enough but do not feel that any of three methods is yielding the desired result just yet.
Will immediately rule out the use of wrapping paper, as this is prone to tearing when wet and also the structure remains too coarse.
The first method seems to be the best one for the time being, but in some places the foil did not 'fall' into the grid and thus remained too rigid, whereas in other places it quite nicely imitated the starved dog distortion generated by the welding heat.


I will be doing some further experimenting with filling up with putty as an alternative, watch this space.
The one impression that is already clear is that the time required to apply the weaved grid onto the hull will be quite time consuming !


E
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2016, 06:53:09 pm »

Hm, the one in the middle would look the best if the surface was smoother while as it stands, the right hand one seems most effective. regarding surface quality and style. My concern for the putty technique is that you have to retain the integrity of the straight frame edges as well as get every concave surface smooth. It sounds like a bind to me, but if the end result goes just right then it will be a spectacle  :-))
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2016, 10:24:52 am »

Progress is slow due to other commitments - been doing some more sanding and getting started on the stabilisers and bilge keels.
E
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John W E

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2016, 10:31:39 am »

hi there

the hull is beginning to look nice now - are you still thinking of assimilating the plating?  Or are you going to leave that for when you make another hull?

John
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2016, 07:16:54 pm »

Hi John,


Not giving up on the idea just yet, but still experimenting with various method - so far the result obtained by stretching cigarette paper over a grid of sewing thread and drenched in superglue appears to be the most promising, but still not entirely happy (not least because of the small size of these foils) and trying out a few other things.


Worked on the bilge keels today and got three out of 4 in place. Thought I'd deviate from  usual practice of using a strip of wood and opted for laminated plasticard. Not a good idea, was far too time-consuming and believe it is easier to glue a rectangular strip of wood, shaped to follow the curvature of the hull, in place and then move to give it its triangular cross-section shape. I have used shreds of glass to gradually carve things into the right shape.
Used brass pins as additional supports, drilled into the hull.


As it is the results are ok but have the impression is that it took me twice as long.
A few snapshots.


E
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #70 on: December 27, 2016, 06:23:30 pm »

Shaping thick plastic is a pig. If you do it mechanically you run the risk of melting it, and when you do it by hand it takes bloomin ages. The easiest way is a mixture of coarse abrasive paper stuck on a board/ piece of MDF and a sharp Stanley blade. Your work looks good though:O)
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dave parker

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2017, 03:19:51 pm »

@Crabbersnipe

Awesome build.  Can you tell me how you cut out all your ribs and keel?  They look extremely well cut out and accurate

 :-))
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2017, 08:08:01 pm »

Only too right Ballastanksian with regards to your comment about shaping plasticard, if I'd known from the outset I would have stuck with wooden strips: far easier to sand and shape. Thinking that laminating plasticard would facilitate its shape turned out to be a time consuming and difficult job.
Nonetheless, when it came to making the second one I thought I needed to continue for consistency's sake so thought things would be easier by using a v-shaped gig, slotted out of a scrap of waste brass sheet, and gradually pull the plasticard back and forth. This was better, but the model will see me settle for wood again.
Second photograph shows the curvature of the bilge keel prior to fixing in place, the result of trial and error before getting it right.


E



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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2017, 08:15:37 pm »

Hi Dave,


Thanks for your question regarding the frames and keel - not really a secret to be honest, all of the frames were cut by hand using a fret saw, and subsequently sand off the remaining excess on the disc grinder.
The inside section was also cut out by means of the fret saw and then sanded smooth using a Dremel hand drill.


The keel was constructed by laminating two strips of (pine) wood on top of each other, with the upper strip spaced out to allow for a slot between the frames.


Cheers
E
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crabbersnipe

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Re: HMS Argonaut - Leander Class Frigate 1/96th
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2017, 06:12:08 pm »

Did some more work on the hull, first bit of work since the New Year - reverted to the trusted practice of using wood instead of plasticard and fashioned the two sonar domes and two stabiliser fins from a piece of scratch wood. Subsequently superglued it in place and when dry covered the lot in resin  + hardener.
Next step is adding filler where necessary.
After that, only need to add the propellers and open up the anchor recesses and the hull shall be ready for turning.


E
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