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Author Topic: TID tug colours - WW2.  (Read 15483 times)

Akira

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2017, 11:57:44 am »

Sadly, my reference books are packed away for a house move, but Mudway may be on point. The US Army actually has a LARGER fleet that the US Navy during WW 2. US paints were standardized and one would expect that their use would cross service lines.
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Akira

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2017, 12:11:41 pm »

As my coffee awakens my brain this day, I recall that the US Maritime Commission, the agency responsible for the design and building of the US Merchant fleet during WW2, painted many, if not all, it's fleet in US Camo colors. I have an example of a V-4 tugboat that is in MS 22, which used Navy Blue 5-N for the vertical surfaces from boot top to main deck. The deck was Deck Grey ( 20) or Beck Blue (20-B)
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2017, 12:12:00 pm »

More from the US oracles, the Army did use USN colours not their land colours. So the tug is most likely USN 5N.


Colourcoats have that in their range.   https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/us08-5-n-navy-blue
As for USN green/olive, only PT boats shipped to Europe wore that colour.


"US08-5-N-navy blue"  is a colour that would "tie in" with the very dark black and white pictures I have seen of the TID tugs in US Army service.


Now that I know the colour that was originally used on the full sized TID tugs when in US Army service so I will use this colour as a base but I will lighten it a little to allow for some "in service" fading - and then darken it in selected areas that were most likely to have been a bit "grubby" from coal and soot etc.


The tank painting experience detailed in this thread by Rob47 is worth considering as it was unlikely to be a unique example of what happens in real life, (and wartime supplies were often disrupted) so some thinning with the use of the "universal thinner" (petrol) is something that could have easily taken place in any of the armed services

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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2017, 12:20:55 pm »

As my coffee awakens my brain this day, I recall that the US Maritime Commission, the agency responsible for the design and building of the US Merchant fleet during WW2, painted many, if not all, it's fleet in US Camo colors. I have an example of a V-4 tugboat that is in MS 22, which used Navy Blue 5-N for the vertical surfaces from boot top to main deck. The deck was Deck Grey ( 20) or Beck Blue (20-B)


Now a Camo painted TID really does appeal !


I am unlikely of find any pictures of an actual TID camouflage scheme but I guess a "typical" scheme could be found and used as a  reference?
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Rob47

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2017, 05:29:01 pm »



Sorry but they werenít painted from the same paint if you constantly thinned it. If your logic is correct, a pint of beer which is undiluted is the same as one which is 90% water and 10% beer.


seems you have not understood what I was trying to illustrate, that although at the start the paint was the same by various thinning sessions it was almost a different paint for each session, hence the varying shades, also if you scrounged some of same batch it would never match :D

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Netleyned

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2017, 05:37:51 pm »

Paint it in grey or camo.
Its your model.
I would not think a rivet counter
will come along and say you are
wrong. No rivets anyway TID's were
welded :}


Ned
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2017, 06:08:22 pm »

Paint it in grey or camo.
Its your model.
I would not think a rivet counter
will come along and say you are
wrong. No rivets anyway TID's were
welded :}


Ned


Ha Ha - thanks Ned - that is exactly what I intend to do anyway but I wanted to know what the correct colours that were actually used and this well supported thread has provided me with lots of information and interesting comments.


The US Army painted some of the early open cockpit types in a darker colour and as I have made a model of one of these early variants and wanted something to look a little different from all of the other military TID tugs that I have seen (mostly painted in grey primer) I asked the question.


Now I have the information I wanted about the colours used and the amount of variation that existed I see no reason to have to settle for leaving a TID model in grey primer - so I won't be leaving any of my TID tug models in grey primer!



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Howard

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2017, 10:08:01 pm »

 How about being differant  and doing it a gray colour that you like as on differant days and differant weather it will look different.


                       Regards Howard.
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mudway

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2017, 02:07:55 am »

A colour photo of some US tugs (no idea which) in WW2.
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2017, 09:07:34 am »

How about being differant  and doing it a gray colour that you like as on differant days and differant weather it will look different.


                       Regards Howard.


If I were to just paint it in a colour that I liked then light sea grey would be nice - but it has a greenish tinge to it and apparently this would never have been used due to a shortage of green pigment during the early war years.


I guess this restriction applied to British and US TID tugs ?
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2017, 09:11:09 am »

Were all TID tugs painted black below the waterline?



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Howard

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2017, 08:11:42 pm »

Zooma,
  I dont think that photo is of a Tid look more like a Ryhope kind I may be wrong but that so called Tid looks like its round at the stern.


                                          Regards Howard.
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2017, 08:15:52 pm »

Zooma,
  I dont think that photo is of a Tid look more like a Ryhope kind I may be wrong but that so called Tid looks like its round at the stern.


                                          Regards Howard.


I agree, but it is a very helpful photograph as it shows vessels of the period in typical colours - just what I was hoping to see - some pictures of TIDS would be even better - but colour pictures of wartime TID tugs are very rare.
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dodes

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #63 on: March 18, 2017, 09:44:35 pm »

Sometime ago I asked an old friend of mine , now touching 90 about the wartime built emergency tugs colour, he said that they were all delivered painted grey like warships. Then the operating authority who actually worked them repainted them to their individual colours. All those delivered for CD tugs in dockyards were repainted black and buff immediately for instance. But there were some government units such as Coastal Shipping and Towing which used these vessels and I have not yet found out there colours and there was several other units like D606 etc which were grey and the Naval Armament Vessels and their tugs were grey all over with red funnel bands during the war. So good luck, paint it how you fancy it.
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2017, 12:17:33 am »

Black and buff sounds like an interesting colour scheme - anyone have any pictures of these - or knows what scheme was used?
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mudway

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2017, 07:19:08 am »

Not too sure about the black and buff in wartime. Hannonís book of 50 years of Naval Tugs has only shades of grey in wartime shots. Post war, the RN had instructions for their tugs to be black hulled with light grey superstructure and this would have included the Admiralty Yard Craft Service which operated tugs and other small craft. I didnít think the black and buff scheme came back into use until the Port Auxiliary Service was formed from the old Admiralty Yard Craft Service in 1958.

Very hard finding photos of TIDs and the like let alone a photo date. This is a 2 colour one but when. Audrey is in shot, so sometime after 1962. The other shot is Cyclone in the black and grey scheme.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2017, 07:29:57 am »

Fruitless exercise as has been pointed out.

For what it is worth.

Years ago recall reading a book produced by Model and Alied Publications, I think, on painting of models.

Recall it saying, that the original colours even if available and verified could not be used, as the scale of the model, wear and tear, actual colours as in photos could not be replicated, also photos are notoriously unreliable even if in colour due to distance from the subject, lighting, existing conditions and so on.

For instance in black and white photos which are more readily available, 'actual' colours are varying shades of 'grey' 

In essence the "colour" was at best an approximation and nothing else, namely, no right colour, no wrong colour.

Makes you wonder about judging models for accuracy????? %% %% %%

If I like a paint scheme that is what I paint, same as if I like a subject that is what I make. O0 O0 O0


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dodes

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2017, 05:47:49 pm »

With reference to Admiralty Harbour tugs, CD tugs were always black hull and buff upper works with a blue funnel band with narrow with lines top and bottom off. I have a colour pic of the Devonport tugs lined up for the 1937 coronation revue. The ocean going tug picture is of one of the ocean tug towing group which was semi RFA and had black hulls and grey tops, they eventually were amalgamated with PAS into the RMAS in 1966. I tried to load the pic but it was too big, but here is TID 164 instead.
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dodes

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2017, 05:57:10 pm »

Just remembered the old R class tugs were painted red when in the Med including wartime. Presume this colour was for salvage tugs which was their role then.
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2017, 09:40:00 am »

With reference to Admiralty Harbour tugs, CD tugs were always black hull and buff upper works with a blue funnel band with narrow with lines top and bottom off. I have a colour pic of the Devonport tugs lined up for the 1937 coronation revue. The ocean going tug picture is of one of the ocean tug towing group which was semi RFA and had black hulls and grey tops, they eventually were amalgamated with PAS into the RMAS in 1966. I tried to load the pic but it was too big, but here is TID 164 instead.


Good colour picture of a TID Admiralty Harbour Tug - very rare and much appreciated.
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dodes

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2017, 05:18:41 pm »

Found this picture on the net, it was taken after the war but nicely shows a typical cold move by CD tugs on the Forth.
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zooma

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2017, 06:32:23 pm »

Found this picture on the net, it was taken after the war but nicely shows a typical cold move by CD tugs on the Forth.


Another nice colour picture of a TID tug in military service - it may well be just after the war, but I am guessing the black and buff colour scheme was as used in the war and had not been changed ?


Never seen so many "wartime" pictures of TID tugs  - thanks to this colour thread !


Thanks everyone - very very pleased with the contributions so far!



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mudway

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2017, 08:20:31 am »

My guess is that pre-war tugs kept their black and buff for three reasons. One not worth repainting small yardcraft. Two, there would have been a fair bit of non admiralty black paint around to use up. Three, too busy to repaint small yard vessels in a new scheme when it is easier to touch up an existing scheme. If you look at the Empires or other war built tugs, they came out in grey. I canít see a dockyard having time to repaint a tug black and buff when they had more pressing work on hand.   
Whitesand Bay was taken by Roger Eastwood when he visited the UK from Australia in 1955. He took his camera everywhere with him including on board the RN ships he visited and used colour slide film. His son has been slowly scanning his fatherís old photos. All are classics. I have it in 2600  x 1300 if you want a copy. Enjoy this shot at Chatham.
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dodes

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2017, 11:12:09 am »

With reference to WW2 tid colours, I did come across a pic on the net of a TID flying a white ensign all in grey. Not sure of the number but the RN kept one or two at Sheerness as inspection boats during the war. They also had some others for similar work but they are all listed in the book previously mentioned.
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mudway

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Re: TID tug colours - WW2.
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2017, 12:03:12 pm »

The Medway Trust & TIDs was mentioned but I didn't go all the way through their website. I just did, some RN tugs in WW2 and, guess, what a US Army tug in France. 
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