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Author Topic: side lever engine cira 1840s  (Read 12435 times)

ooyah/2

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2018, 11:54:24 PM »

Hi Treble,
After looking up your connection to Grange Steam museum it quite clearly states that there are two beams on a lever engine, one on each side.
Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.


George
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JimG

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2018, 01:14:25 PM »

Hi Treble,

Thanks for the link as I always assumed that there was only one beam on one side.


George
Paddle tugs with side lever engines often could split the engine into two halves to give independant paddle drive. In this case each half had a single lever. the cranks could then be recoupled to give the full engine.
Jim
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2018, 02:47:00 PM »

Dave , There is a side lever engine at Markham Grange Steam Museum , Doncaster , England . They have a web site , where you will find pictures and a description of its working . Hope this helps a little . Sorry , I am not computor literate , and so cant post a link . Trevor .

thanks mate I found the site
I got a real head scratcher at this point of the build so I will need to make a few contacts with museums to see if I can get some answers.
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2018, 02:50:15 PM »

when you look at this engine it is one complete engine but the Mississippi steam frigate had 2 of these side by side.

did the shaft for the paddle wheels run as one continues shaft OR did these engines run independent of one another?

is there some sort of listing of all steam engine museums and clubs in England?
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Treble

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2018, 11:15:36 PM »

Dave's , If you care to email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will forward on to you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of interest . Trevor.
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Treble

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2018, 11:21:23 PM »

Steves , If you email your address details to me at t.drabble@btinternet.com then I will send you my copy of this year's Steam Herritage Guide which I think you will find of use . Trevor 
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #56 on: December 03, 2018, 04:14:56 PM »


and now for a sneak peek at the progress of the 3d model of the frame



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grendel

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2018, 04:39:14 PM »

thats looking really nice, you are getting along quite well, theres a good few hours work in that 3d model, but well worth it.
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2018, 05:02:40 PM »


part by part will be created as a 3D model then I will try to assemble the engine. Still many parts I do not know what they are or how it all goes together. hope by seeing the engine in 3D I can rely on logic.


once the engine is done then on to a cross section of the ships engine room.
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flashtwo

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2018, 08:15:43 PM »

 Hi Dave,

I’m very interested in your project, since I’m in the middle of designing and building a side lever engine for the Paddle Tug Monarch (1833).

One of my problems was deciding whether to use parallel motion linkages or the more simple cross-head guides.

The only description I’ve found of the Monarch’s side lever engine was from “British Steam Tugs” by P.N. Thomas (1983)  where he describes seeing a contemporary model at Newcastle Museum with “…a cover over the crosshead slides “ (page 15). This was only an assumption on his part and the evidence for parallel motion is with the contemporary engine that you are modelling and also a model of the PS. Ruby (River Thames, 1836) which shows parallel motion. See http://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/marine_engines2.html


As you can see from the photograph below, I have made progress in determining the linkage geometry;
see Mayhem Thread https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55112.0.html[/url]

I’m very interested in the “p block 1.jpg” image and comments particularly the description “P.Block for parallel motion back shaft” which I think is what I’ve seen described as the “Bridle”.

As you may have noticed with these old engines that the very fine adjustment of the linkages was with metal wedges at the unions – it must have been a very tiring and tedious process lifting the piston up and down and banging the wedges until the vertical alignment was achieved.

The engine as it exists is not at all elegant, but the plan is to bush out the linkages with phosphor bronze, since it will be a hard working engine on steam in a 6 foot model of the Monarch.

I also plan to replace items of the engine with “architectural” Corinthian columns once I’m satisfied that I have a working engine.

The contemporary model of the Monarch, mentioned above, I finally managed to locate at the Science Museum (London), and which they photographed and sent me (at a price!) three very good images.

Ian
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2018, 05:06:56 PM »


I will post some original drawings for the engine linkage I am modeling but for now here are some closeup details of the frame


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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2018, 03:15:32 PM »


here is the assembled frame for the engine. Now comes the bed plate, cylinder, condenser and pumps



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derekwarner

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2018, 08:31:46 PM »

Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting  :D  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms


Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"


In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]


The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?

Derek



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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2018, 04:13:03 PM »


Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting 
[/size][/color]
  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms



each of those frames were cast in one piece and their weight was about 18 tons.
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2018, 04:24:53 PM »


Yes again Dave, looking at the actual construction & considering the drawing, designing & actual pattern making before the casting  :D  .can help understand why Gothic styled machinery was so expensive in real terms



Just looking back at the Drawing for the Parallel Motion support bearing plate we see the 4 base bolts were 1 1/8" and elongated for adjustment and the top cap 2 bolts were 1 1/4"

in the original drawings the bolt holes are drawn in, because I planned on 3D printing parts bolted together rather than show a hole I drew a bolt head. There would have been a slot showing along side the bolt head but that detail would be so tiny I just eliminated the slot.


In the representations, the scale size of the 4 base bolt heads appear a little undersized...[1"?]


now that you pointed that out I agree so that is something I will go back and correct


The other question is ....the detail drawing of the Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?




I pondered that and could not quite decide what to do about it. My first idea was to create a non working dummy model with parts 3D printed in place like the pillow blocks. Yes you are correct they were keyed into their bed plates. That seam between parts would be so fine you would not see it at the scale of the model so I eliminated the seam. THEN! I was approached by a model engineer and he suggested I create all the parts separate and down to exact detail so a working model can be built from the drawings and 3D model. OK that can indeed be done except for one little flaw in the idea. I am not a steam engineer and I am guessing and interrupting the original plans best I can. I have a whole lot of parts I am totally clueless what the are and how they fit into the engine.
for now I will try and create a dummy engine and post it with hopes people will step forward and point out corrections and offer suggestions. This project can be refined to an actual working model with a little help.


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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2018, 04:58:30 PM »


it would be possible for a model steam engineer to recreate a steam engine built in 1839 right down to the very size of the nuts and bolts IF such information was available. Well your in luck because that information is available what is not available is the knowhow to actually build it for me anyhow.






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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2018, 05:27:31 PM »

The other question is ....the detail drawing of the
Parallel Motion support bearing plate, shows a flat sole plate surface, however in the assembly arrangement we see a stepped or multiple keyed arrangement?
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derekwarner

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2018, 08:23:44 PM »

All of this makes perfect sense Dave


It certainly is advantageous to have access to the Table of Scale Drawings for each type of bolted arrangement. Being in scale....just understand  the stud size, then copy the relationship scale x the nut = AF size and height.....top face profile......washer thickness & diameter etc etc


[just to confuse  {-)  the top Table depicts nuts as the hex point to point, the second table depicts the nuts in across the flats]


The fitment of the Parallel Motion Shaft mounting Plate is absolutely typical of the ingenuity of these Designers ......the base of the block is flat, the frame has a 'cast in'' then machined set of relief pads.....5 rectangular width wise finger pads [this makes the machining of each support plate surface much easier and in ensuring flatness - it would not be uncommon to understand that each of those 5 finger pads were hand scraped & blued to ensure accuracy [flatness, squareness, triangulation between each other pivot axis in the linkage or arm]


The frames also has width wise support up-sweeps cast in at each end of the support plate area. The plate has 1 1/8" elongated holes, and whilst not shown in the Drawing....final during final assembly and positioning of the PMS mounting.....steel 'Keeps' [full height x width sized packing pieces] would have fitted between the ends of the PMS mounting plate and the corresponding cast support up-sweep


We can see, & naturally the identical arrangement would be applicable to the top/main engine shaft bearing block to frame interface


The engineering philosophy in this engineering was carried over and used in military [Naval] armaments in a parallel time frame with the building of these machines................... Derek   
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2018, 04:22:29 PM »


next phase of the drawing is adding these parts, one problem at this point are the green parts on the left



I do not know for sure where they go or how they attach to the engine I am taking a guess and say they sit on top of the purple part which on the original plans sheet it is titled pumps.


I did notice the purple part does line up with the P block on top of the frame hum interesting
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2018, 04:25:22 PM »


here is a gothic engine with parts that look like the green parts in the drawing. logic dictates these have something to do with the steam going into the cylinder and out of the cylinder.


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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2018, 04:28:24 PM »

as I draw the parts in detail I will post the 2D CAD drawings with the original drawing. Once the CAD drawings for these parts are done then they will be created as a 3D model and finally assembled into the frame and on the bed plate
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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2018, 07:10:12 PM »


starting with the cylinder the first thing to look at is the original sheet of drawings



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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2018, 07:14:41 PM »


the original drawings are quite large 4 feet long and 70 gigabites in size way to big to post because you can not read them


what I did was take the original and crop the drawings down into smaller files so lets take a look at what has been drawn.



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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2018, 07:18:20 PM »


so those are the drawings of the cylinder now on another sheet17 I found the top and one unknow drawing so lets take a look at those



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daves

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Re: side lever engine cira 1840s
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2018, 07:25:05 PM »


go back to post number 46 and in the lower right corner is a cross section drawing of the bottom of the cylinder, note how it is drawn


now look at the final CAD drawings of the assembled cylinder


the first drawing is the bottom flipped over the second assembly drawing shows the bottom as drawn, which way should it go?


also here is the layout of the cylinder drawn on the bed plate and it does show the 4 tabs from the bottom drawing.


if you use the first assembly those tabs will sit flat on the bed plate
if you flip the bottom like it is drawn there will be a gap between the tabs on the bottom of the cylinder and the bed plate.

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