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Author Topic: Lesro Rapier - 60's cabin cruiser  (Read 42661 times)

madwelshman

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2021, 10:14:25 pm »

Glad to hear that what you thought might have been a bit of a disaster, turned out to be otherwise.


At least you don't have to try and clean bits/all of it up to try doing it a 2nd time.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2021, 09:51:11 am »

Glad to hear that what you thought might have been a bit of a disaster, turned out to be otherwise.


At least you don't have to try and clean bits/all of it up to try doing it a 2nd time.


There has to be some good news now and again Will.


If yesterdays paint has dried OK, I will go back out into the fridge(workshop/shed) later today and give the two rear bays a second coat of paint and take a look to see how much of the brush handle I need to chop off to enable me to get into all the small areas that I cannot reach with the standard length handle.


Hopefully, I should be able to get the paint into all of these small areas tomorrow when I can check to see any small corners that have not been fully coated with paint.  I may also have to make a brush with the head mounted at an angle to reach some of the faces that cannot be coated nicely with a straight brush - or maybe try a small home made paint pad instead?


I may put some expanding foam in the void under the motor mounting platform to see if this can also help reduce the motor noise as I am convinced that is the hull that is resonating and amplifying the motor noise.


I will be pleased to get this job out of the way - then I must make a decision about the exterior colours and get the painting finished so I can glaze the windows and re-fit the the steering servo and rudder etc so the boat is ready to take out on the water again when I will test alternative motors and ESC both "dry" and water-cooled.


I have a feeling that this Rapier will never be completely "finished",  but it will continue to clock up the running hours as my live "test bed" - hopefully for many years to come!
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madwelshman

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2021, 10:11:00 am »


Just a thought, but what coupling you are using? Could it be shaft vibration rather than motor that's resonating through the hull?
If so, would a different coupling isolate it better?


Will
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2021, 10:58:15 am »


Hi Will,

That is worth a look and I have an alternative type of coupling that I could use to see if it makes any difference.

Here is a reply that I made earlier on this thread that details the alignment and the coupling that I have used, and if you read the thread and take a look at the pictures here it should also help you see the assembly to accompany the description.

Some of the work that I have done on this restoration (such as cutting out and reinstating bulkhead sections, stringers, deck sections etc) sound very similar to the jobs that you are going to attempt on your Sea Commander and these pictures will let you see how I did it.

You may find a better way of doing these jobs and this could be helpful when I take on some more similar restoration jobs as we can all learn from each other.

Bob.




"I am using a Powerflex coupling from Modelboatbits and I aligned the shaft and mount (with motor fitted) by using the solid Powerflex Alignment shaft and "glued" the motor plate assembly into the hull firstly with good old fashioned 24 hour Araldite, and checked it again the next day before using chopped glass fibre matting to complete the bonding into the hull.

When everything was fully set I removed the alignment shaft and fitted the Powerflex coupling so in theory at least I should have a "true" alignment between the motor shaft and the prop-shaft.

A mistake I may have made is to bond the adjustable water-cooled motor mount assembly onto a 4mm thick plywood plate approx 90mm x 70mm and this was bonded onto a pair of 20mm thick shaped "bulkheads" at front and back.


This looks and feels like a rock solid "bullet-proof" mount, but maybe the 4mm plate (although supported rigidly at front and back by the heavyweight mounting bulkheads) is resonating and making it should a bit louder than it should?

I am thinking about putting some two part expanding foam under this mounting plate into the small space that is left between the front and rear mini bulkhead engine plate supports and the hull bottom to deaden the sound rather than cut everything out and start again with a thicker motor mounting plate."



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madwelshman

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2021, 11:21:02 am »


I think it could be a process of elimination.
Worst case scenario, you don't manage to cure it completely, even if you only manage to reduce it, that will be an improvement.
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46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 x2
34" Lesro Sportsman mk1
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x3
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2021, 11:41:56 am »

I think it could be a process of elimination.
Worst case scenario, you don't manage to cure it completely, even if you only manage to reduce it, that will be an improvement.


Hopefully the engine mount reinforcements that I have made (and detailed on this thread) may have already cured the problem (?) but I know that Harry cured a similar problem on a Spearfish by glueing a couple of hardwood strips along the hull from front to back to stop the drumming so I also have this option in reserve to try if my "beefed-up" motor mounting plate supports fail to dampen down the noise.


Trying alternative couplings may also help, but the Powerflex coupling have a rubber joint in them and usually work very well when they are correctly aligned.
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madwelshman

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2021, 11:45:05 am »


You'll get there I'm sure Bob.


Will
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49" Precedent Perkasa
46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 x2
34" Lesro Sportsman mk1
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x3
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
20" Aerokits Fast Patrol Boat
16" Aerokits Sea Urchin

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2021, 05:41:49 pm »

I think I should buy some square obechie strip and run it though the bandsaw (with my small home-made jig mounted on it) to make some more triangular strip.

My restored Rapier has no strakes on the hull.

When I restored this model I fitted some nice sharp edged chine spray rails (and deck edging) as the original builder never fitted any (!), but I never took enough notice to see that the model never had any chine rails fitted either!

My excuse was that I had plenty of "other things to worry about first" to get this wreck back into one lump and (not having a plan to refer to) I had no idea that the first owner should also have also fitted some strakes when building his kit.

I should have known that a hull like this would benefit from the inclusion of strakes, and now that it has been running for some time I can see how easily it rolls into a turn and wonder if it would be more controlled if I add some strakes?

Because of the forward mounted prop shaft and rudder (not as specified on the plan) this boat already turns really quickly so it would be nice to see what advantages adding strakes could do to improve the already sparkling performance this model has.

With the continuing lock-down I am tempted to scrape away the paint in the areas where strakes could be fitted and glue-on some of my slightly "over-sized" home made stripping.

Depending on the hull curvatures, I may even try to make a different shape of strake with a wider base to give a more vertical outside edge to cut into the water even better than the triangular shapes that I have made previously, but this shape would have a wider base and would be a lot harder to "bend" if the hull has a double curvature in the area where I want to fit them.

If the strakes can be made to fit more or less straight (from bow to transom) I will see if I can devise a jig to cut them from a more oblong strip of "donor" wood.  I may have to make this "donor" strip myself before I can convert it into the correct profile so I want to make sure that I can fit it if I make it!

I am sure that the hull will look a lot better with some nice chunky strakes fitted to it, so it will be worth doing - even if I don't gain any noticeable turning performance from fitting them, but I am hoping that they will slow any "side-slip" to improve the turn still further and control the "roll into turn" a little better too.

I still have the new unbuilt Rapier kit (another eBay purchase last year!) in its box under my bench, so anything that I learn now can be included in my "new build" when I get around to making it.
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Stuw

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2021, 02:30:59 pm »

Bob

As I said a good find and great that the contents are so good.

The ball-raced prop shafts I use are the Raboesch Maintenance Free rated to 15k. revs ones which are nicely made. I get mine from Cornwall Model Boats.

Chris


Hi Chris,


I am interested in this type of propshaft. Looking at the website images they seem to be flared at the inboard end? Is this removable to allow the propshaft outer to be inserted from the stern?


 I have a Lesro Javelin that needs repairing and am wondering if this will be possible to fit once I remove the existing shaft as my boat is already constructed.


Stuw
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2021, 03:25:57 pm »

Hi Stu


The flared part is actually the housing for the ball-race, so is removeable and the prop tube can be pushed into place no problem. Once everything is in place the housing can be epoxied to the tube. Intention was to first try it with the housing just taped in place but some of the epoxy from gluing the tube in place must have wicked up inside the housing and it's now glued! Evidently if you do want to remove it in the future you apply some heat.


One photo shows the housing removed when I was cutting the tube down to size and the other shows the motor and prop shaft etc. in place.


Chris


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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2021, 03:34:03 pm »

Chris,


That’s great. Lovely picture of such a clean and simple motor and prop set up. Out of interest is your motor mount homemade or purchased? Need a more robust one I think.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2021, 04:01:00 pm »

Stuw,


You have a long case "in-runner" motor and the type of mount that you have bought would be the same as a manufacturer would fit in a fast boat with a similar size and type of motor. (check-out the top ProBoats range).


Once epoxied or glass fibered into your hull it will be as solid as a rock and the rear brace will help to hold your motor securely - and it gives you the option of water cooling too.


I use the alloy water cooled mounts for all my motors - but because I want to switch between out-runners and in-runners I can only use the front mounted types that do not give the extra support to the end of your long motor can. 


The front water-cooled part of the mount that I use is exactly the same as the front water-cooled part of your mount (identical) so when using a long in-runner like yours, I will make a small wedge to support the end of the motor can rather than leave it "flapping in the breeze" with no support from the front mounting only.


Any mount that only holds the front part of a long can motor like yours cannot be as good as what you already have.


Bob.



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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2021, 05:02:36 pm »

Thanks Bob.


Mine does support both ends and I see now that my can is quite long. Will give it a go. My motor has a cooling jacket but I found this mount a handy setup even if I don’t use the front cooling points. As you say if I change motor at some point it could come in handy.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2021, 05:16:37 pm »

Thanks Bob.


Mine does support both ends and I see now that my can is quite long. Will give it a go. My motor has a cooling jacket but I found this mount a handy setup even if I don’t use the front cooling points. As you say if I change motor at some point it could come in handy.


The front cooling points may be the most important ones as they cool the motors front bearing.

If you take a look on the Mayhem Swordsman thread, you can see pictures of my long case in-runner motors on some water-cooled mounts (page 9) 

I have connected the water cooling jacket and the water-cooling mount so the motor and the main bearing (via the front mount) both get some cooling fluid around them.

If you also look at page 11 you can see my home made strakes fitted to the Swordsman I am building - and on some earlier pages you can also see how I made them on a small bandsaw with a basic home made jig.

Stay safe!

Bob.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2021, 10:41:35 pm »

Hi Stu


The flared part is actually the housing for the ball-race, so is removeable and the prop tube can be pushed into place no problem. Once everything is in place the housing can be epoxied to the tube. Intention was to first try it with the housing just taped in place but some of the epoxy from gluing the tube in place must have wicked up inside the housing and it's now glued! Evidently if you do want to remove it in the future you apply some heat.


One photo shows the housing removed when I was cutting the tube down to size and the other shows the motor and prop shaft etc. in place.


Chris


Hi Chris,



I didn't know that the bearing housing was not permanently fixed onto the Raboesch prop shaft tube when it is supplied new - it certainly makes it easier to install the shaft into an existing hull and then push the bell-ended  bearing housing back on when the shaft is installed in the hull.


It also makes it easier to get the right size shaft as their size range in M5 is a bit limited, so cutting it down to size with a pull-off bearing end makes a really easy job.


Does the ball raced bell housing have a tight enough "friction fit" to stay put without being epoxied in place?


If it does, it would also make it easy to service and lubricate the ball race and also replace the ball bearings when they get worn too  :-))


Hope your builds are going well!


Bob.



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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #90 on: February 03, 2021, 11:40:19 pm »

Hi Bob

The housing is a good fit but not a friction fit so it needs securing in place.

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2021, 10:44:34 am »

Hi Bob

The housing is a good fit but not a friction fit so it needs securing in place.

Chris


Thanks for the info Chris,

I was hoping that by fitting an M5 collet on the end of the inner shaft to keep it in place (with minor end float), and then fitting a Powerflex coupling tight against the collet, it would be enough to hold everything in place - including the bell ended bearing holder, but to work, that would need a tight fitting between the outer tube and the bearing holder.

The idea would not work very well if the bell-ended bearing holder started to spin !  >:-o  but tapping a hole in the neck of the bell housing to take a small headless screw to locate and secure it against the outer shaft would be a neat fix that would also make it removable if/when needed.

To be fair though, unless the shaft should suffer from an unexpected bearing failure, there would be no need to have the bearing holder removable  - and even then it may be possible to extract and replace a failed bearing with the shaft still in the hull.

My reasoning for not permanently securing the bell-ended bearing holder was just for ease of servicing and (when the time eventually comes) making it possible to get the shaft back out of the hull without too much collateral damage.

Just a thought........

Bob.
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2021, 07:12:24 pm »

Stu

As Bob says the type of motor mount that you have is best for your inrunner motor but to answer your question the ones I use are bought.

They are aluminium and are for 500/600 motors and have the correct mounting centres for the brushless motors that I use. I bought them from Cornwall Model Boats and EBay  (Anglia Model Centre) and had assumed they were made in China. However since Anglia shut down they are no longer available anywhere and so I guess they had them made. CMB still do one in aluminium but it's for 700 motors so too big.

Fortunately I bought 4 so enough for my current builds that need them but I wish I'd bought more now! They are available in black plastic/nylon but I do like the alloy ones after I've filed out the witness marks and given them a polish!

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2021, 08:44:10 pm »

Stu

As Bob says the type of motor mount that you have is best for your inrunner motor but to answer your question the ones I use are bought.

They are aluminium and are for 500/600 motors and have the correct mounting centres for the brushless motors that I use. I bought them from Cornwall Model Boats and EBay  (Anglia Model Centre) and had assumed they were made in China. However since Anglia shut down they are no longer available anywhere and so I guess they had them made. CMB still do one in aluminium but it's for 700 motors so too big.

Fortunately I bought 4 so enough for my current builds that need them but I wish I'd bought more now! They are available in black plastic/nylon but I do like the alloy ones after I've filed out the witness marks and given them a polish!

Chris


You should have bought another one  Chris - they may have had an offer with a free tube of Solvo Autosol if you bought five!   %%
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2021, 04:02:22 pm »


Hi Chris,



I didn't know that the bearing housing was not permanently fixed onto the Raboesch prop shaft tube when it is supplied new - it certainly makes it easier to install the shaft into an existing hull and then push the bell-ended  bearing housing back on when the shaft is installed in the hull.


It also makes it easier to get the right size shaft as their size range in M5 is a bit limited, so cutting it down to size with a pull-off bearing end makes a really easy job.


Does the ball raced bell housing have a tight enough "friction fit" to stay put without being epoxied in place?


If it does, it would also make it easy to service and lubricate the ball race and also replace the ball bearings when they get worn too  :-))


Hope your builds are going well!


Bob.


Thanks for the info Chris.


Looks like the flared bearing section is about an inch long from your photo?



Just been having at look at these again online. As far as I can tell the Raboesch maintenance free ball race shaft outer tubes  are 10mm thick at 450mm length versus 8mm at 290mm length. I need something in between in length but spotted if I cut the 450mm down it’s a thicker tube so will need to open up the hole a little in the hull.





I was looking at Cornwall model boats for the spec.




Might just go for Maxidrive type shaft with the bronze bearings and use lithium grease as Bob seems to not have trouble at high rpm with this standard sort of shaft?


Don’t want to get this wrong but although they quote max 15000rpm with my 1900kv running a single 7.4v pack that’s just about ok. If I were to be ludicrous and put two lipos in series is nearly 30000rpm no load a bit too much for my boat?





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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2021, 11:47:12 am »

Hi Stu

Just checked the 4mm prop shaft bearing housing and it's 20mm long.

I tend to use the longer prop shafts in my builds and the 5mm shaft/10mm outer is a bit of a beast! Fine in the Swordsman but it's not right for the svelte Huntsman 31 (much too heavy and doesn't look right) so I've got a 4mm/8mm for that. For long prop shafts it's often recommended to go for 5mm but as Raboesch is quality stuff and I'm guessing they wouldn't make a long 4mm if it didn't work.

All my motors are lower kV than yours as I tend to choose within 800 - 1100kV and then choose the LiPos to give me around 10/11k. revs which is safely within the 15k. max.

I just fancied using the maintenance free prop shafts but the conventional ones, especially the better quality ones, are obviously fine as the speed merchants, Harry (Canabus) and Bob can verify.

Chris
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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2021, 12:25:30 pm »

Thanks Chris,


Having reflected on this and found a useful guide to brushless motors on this forum as well to help me, I realise that more than 15000rpm on my old Javelin is probably somewhat excessive. I also understand that prop size is important. Don’t want to overdo things.


My current prop is M5 so that’s why I was leaning toward the M5 option but as you say the long ball bearing one is rather meaty!



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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2021, 12:42:32 pm »

Hi Stu

Just checked the 4mm prop shaft bearing housing and it's 20mm long.

I tend to use the longer prop shafts in my builds and the 5mm shaft/10mm outer is a bit of a beast! Fine in the Swordsman but it's not right for the svelte Huntsman 31 (much too heavy and doesn't look right) so I've got a 4mm/8mm for that. For long prop shafts it's often recommended to go for 5mm but as Raboesch is quality stuff and I'm guessing they wouldn't make a long 4mm if it didn't work.

All my motors are lower kV than yours as I tend to choose within 800 - 1100kV and then choose the LiPos to give me around 10/11k. revs which is safely within the 15k. max.



I just fancied using the maintenance free prop shafts but the conventional ones, especially the better quality ones, are obviously fine as the speed merchants, Harry (Canabus) and Bob can verify.

Chris


Yup - pleased to verify that Chris.


I have used an M5 Maxi-Shaft inner from MBB in my Rapier and I have taken the inner shaft out to check it and re-grease it after a good season of high speed action - and despite me opening the bearings up (the olde 2BA shaft had a slightly smaller diameter) there is no visible "play" in the bearings at either end that can be seen or felt.


All of the new shafts that I have bought for my Swordsman, Huntsman and Javelin are M5 Maxi Shafts - no chance of any "shaft whip" or "twisting" when using a good quality M5 shaft - and they are reliably solid and run "flat" when tested on glass.


I would not use an M4 shaft on any of the above mentioned boats using the brushless motors that I have chosen to fit in my hulls - I like to have some power to spare and know that when I do choose to "wind it up" the drive train will take it.


Even with an M5 shaft, I still avoid fitting a shaft any longer than it absolutely has to be to give less revolving mass and to allow the motor to be fitted as low as possible in the hull.


My original Swordsman ran for many years on a plain bearing M5 shaft with a '61 glow power motor ....and this included racing off-shore in the sea as well as on river and canals.  No shaft bearing wear or failings to report.


I also ran a fast grp "flatty" hull with an OS 40 marine engine with an M4 shaft (inland waters only) - and that shaft did wear its bearings out fairly quickly, and both shafts were aligned carefully so I prefer to use M5 for any fast boat or one that has a powerful motor.


My scale models (such as my TID Tug) run very happily (year after year) with M4 shafts, but they are not being run at speed.


Aligning the motor and shaft correctly is essential to avoid premature shaft bearing wear.

Bob.




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Stuw

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2021, 01:57:04 pm »

Thanks Bob,


Yep I’m going to go for M5 maxishaft with a Powerflex coupling and buy the alignment version as well to make sure it’s all in line. Think I’m going to add a P bracket as well as my old home made skeg hasn’t survived. I see your Javelin is sporting one.


Another stupid question but is P38 the favoured filler for wood model boats? I see many references on here. I’ve bought some mantua filler (hasn’t arrived yet) and also have some white putty epoxy which I understand is a combined bonding and filling agent?


Please forgive my lack of knowledge but I’d rather know before I start whether my choice of filler is up to it or not.
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2 Lesro Javelins... and that’s it. Not even close to finished!

Stuw

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Re: Lesro Rapier ? - 60's cabin cruiser
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2021, 03:00:46 pm »

Stu

As Bob says the type of motor mount that you have is best for your inrunner motor but to answer your question the ones I use are bought.

They are aluminium and are for 500/600 motors and have the correct mounting centres for the brushless motors that I use. I bought them from Cornwall Model Boats and EBay  (Anglia Model Centre) and had assumed they were made in China. However since Anglia shut down they are no longer available anywhere and so I guess they had them made. CMB still do one in aluminium but it's for 700 motors so too big.

Fortunately I bought 4 so enough for my current builds that need them but I wish I'd bought more now! They are available in black plastic/nylon but I do like the alloy ones after I've filed out the witness marks and given them a polish!

Chris


I’ve just stumbled across these 540 motor mounts that look like the ones you mentioned. Not for me as I’ll use my one supported at both ends, but if you need more these might be the ones?


https://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/MFA-540-550-600-Motor-Mount-Bracket-M726.html#SID=50

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2 Lesro Javelins... and that’s it. Not even close to finished!
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