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Author Topic: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?  (Read 2436 times)

roycv

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2020, 09:26:48 PM »

Hi the probe system in the boiler only needs 1 probe.  This is established at the required water level.  The electronics I developed just activate as the water level falls below this level.  Then there is a 2 second delay this is to eliminate water sloshing about in the boiler and giving false responses and also possible over filling of the boiler.  Trust me it works.
 
There are LED's in the circuit and these have their connections at the point where things happen.  e.g. if the servo is called then the LED is in this circuit.  Not indicating that the servo should be called.  I used ZTX 302's but any similar PNP transistor would do.

Malcolm designed a small vertical boiler which did not respond as expected to the electronics.  After Malcolm cut away part of the boiler and fitted a viewing panel it could be seen that the very vigourous water boiling issuing through an external heating tube was squirting water straight on to the probe.

The circuitry that signals the servo to move could be used operate a relay.  The relay could then switch on an electric pump to using a clean internal water supply.  This would take away the need to have a water pump driven by the steam engine and also the electronics that drive the servo.

Regards
Roy




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roycv

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2020, 09:44:20 PM »

Hello Derek in Oz, hope all well my son keeps me upto date on the virus situation I gather there are 27000 Oz residents trying to return home!

Just picking up on an earlier remark you made about Renault and Nissan.  My son in law was a senior manager in Nissan at the time and He personally showed around the Renault contingent.  There were a lot of mutterings and the final opinion of Renault was that Nissan cars were 'over engineered'!  I think they were building Primeras at the Sunderland factory at the time.

 I had one of these a 2 litre automatic, kindly supplied via my daughter also a Nissan Manager and I kept it for 7 years, the only thing that failed were the windscreen wipers replaced in the first month under warranty.
I like 'over engineering'
regards
Roy
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frazer heslop

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2020, 09:49:26 PM »

I had a similar problem with a horizontal centre  flued boiler as per Peter Arnots V4 one of the water tubes was directly inline with the level probe and gave false level readings. Not a problem with the circuit just the muppet who built the boiler %% . This was solved by placing the probe in a pocket
Although I agree modern RC would do the job with a pressure sensor . There would be no fun in buying it of the shelf
Basically a Schmitt trigger with anti bounce and a couple of timers
All good fun and thanks again Roy and Malcolm .Gentleman in the true sense of the word
Re Nissan I had 4 of the French companies diesel vans that all blew the turbos at 120k to 130K and three other that blew the diffs and you could cut the gears with a file ho hummm
Keep well all
Kindest regards
frazer 
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KNO3

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2020, 09:24:55 AM »

Hello belli, you are right.  Telemetry had established itself, but not yet much in the stream boat gibt. The reason is the lack of useful commercial sensors for a steam plant.
One would need at least:
- boiler pressure (or temperature, as it is directly related to pressure)
- water level
Optional but nice to have:
- fuel tank level
- engine rpm

What I was thinking: I could do away with all these sensors if I could install a tiny camera in the boat to show me the water gauge and pressure gauge on a screen on my r/c unit.

Is there such a thing?
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roycv

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2020, 10:44:54 AM »

Hi I am not up in these things but you could set up a hot spot with your mobile phone and place it in the boat and I think a web cam could transmit pictures to another phone, but not sure how far.

The FSV sysatem in drones is an option as well, do not know costs though.  Is live video a compromise?
Roy
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Jerry C

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2020, 11:06:13 AM »

I was thinking of a drone system. I thought it was called p2p (person to person) but canít find anything.  Monitor attached to r/c transmitter with tiny camera in the boat looking at sight glass and pressure gauge.
Jerry.

roycv

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2020, 11:22:50 AM »

Hi I think I got the abreviation wrong it Is First Person Viewing.  Check out FPV for on board flight viewing.
Roy
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DBS88

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2020, 08:52:58 AM »

This is proving to be a very interesting discussion. I have two steam tugs, one has the full cheddar automatic boiler control system (ABC) the second tug has no controls other than a sight glass and safety valve. The ABC works well using the pressure/temp sensor to control the gas supply (full flame or pilot flame), the optical sensor on the sight glass controls a by pass valve so the engine driven pumps are either filling the boiler or pumping water round a loop to and from the onboard tanks. There is also a low water warning for the on board tanks. The second tug is new to me and certainly makes me nervous in its use - it has a disposable gas tank so the gas will not run out before the water so I use the cheap stop watch method and bring it in after about 12 mins. I wish to add controls so am looking first to add a servo controlled gas shut off so in the event of unforeseen circumstances the gas can be shut off, next gas control, either mechanical or electrical to manage the flame so as to use both steam and gas more efficiently to achieve longer running times. A few months I also began investigating the use of cross over tech from drones, and see great possibilities for the use of cameras, gps and other telemetry. But first need to address the basic issues of making sure I do not end up with a stranded boat that has an uncontrolled flame in the boiler.
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2020, 04:28:24 PM »

With most of the Boilers and engines I have run in Boats I have depended on the stop watch and cruse by slowly method. This is not because I am not interested in adding all the bells, whistles and electronic doodads, but sometimes due to cost (being retired and this not my only hobby), but quite obtain due to lack of initiative and others to bounce ideas off of. I belong to both a model boat club and a model engineering society, but in both of them I am the only one interested in this aspect of modelling.
Gerald.
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morfa

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2020, 07:30:32 PM »

This discussion fascinated me and the high level of science vs the K.I.S.S principles. When I started this, I thought it was a simple question that probably had a very simple answer - but it has really opened my mind to "steam" and all its vagaries. I thought it was just a matter of sticking a regulator on and adjust my piping and "bob's your uncle".


But I think in the short term I am going to go the simple route but add a little technology. I like ROYCV's approach near the end of the discussion - a simple FPV camera that shows my water level. When it can't be seem (the level that is) time to come ashore. Short and sweet like others mentioned the stopwatch approach. Great ideas, so happy to find this forum and all you "guys". Thanks

A picture from my FPV camera.
Cheers, be safe
Derek




 
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belli

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2020, 09:02:30 PM »

The simplest solutions are often the best....     :-))
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derekwarner

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2020, 10:21:53 PM »

Most matters can actually benefit by the completion of a Risk Analysis Study..... :-)) .

These days, a PhD [in Thought Logic for the 22nd Century] [from a highly regarded University] can assist in the final decision making processes and most importantly the result


You know simple things like the what is the IP rating for the electronics & dust protection {against ingress} of your FPV camera?, and what are the electrical Ev characteristics?....could it spark a gas leak?...what would happen if you forgot to charge the camera battery?


Grandpa didn't quite have these challenges, nor the PhD   {-)


Derek
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Derek Warner

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Jerry C

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2020, 12:04:59 PM »

Da iawn  Morfa. Thatís what I was getting at.
Jerry.

roycv

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2020, 12:10:59 PM »

Hi there is an old engine driver's solution to easily reading the sight glass on a boiler.

If you place an obviously striped board behind the glass, when there is water present it alters the angle of the stripes and shows up very easilly to the human eye.
regards
Roy
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plastic

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2020, 03:59:57 PM »

Most matters can actually benefit by the completion of a Risk Analysis Study..... :-)) .

You know simple things like the what is the IP rating for the electronics & dust protection {against ingress} of your FPV camera?, and what are the electrical Evcharacteristics?....could it spark a gas leak?...what would happen if you forgot to charge the camera battery?

Derek
Do you ever consider that with your receiver and servos? 
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morfa

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2020, 04:26:16 PM »

plastic,


I didn't but will be careful. Most of my electrics are in the front end away from the gas and burner but I guess anything can happen.
But that won't stop me "sailing" and enjoying the craft.


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2020, 01:11:16 AM »

This issue did not stop me from sailing - will spend the winter deciding which simple route to take.
Spent a fine Fall evening at the pond enjoying my boat, the comradery of my club, and a fine time outdoors to forget COVID-19.
http://www.morfa.ca/brownsinlet2.mp4

Derek
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Jerry C

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2020, 02:15:10 AM »

Derek, Iíve managed for 9 years with ďWearĒ, which is fitted with engine driven feed pump and bypass valve, by doing sail by to observe pressure and level. I sailed on Llyn Padarn at Llanberis  with no problems. Also sailed her on Llangollen canal between Lion Quays and Chirk Tunnel. I take water from the lake or canal as itís very clean and had no problems with lime scale. Prop never picks up weed.  At the end of every season I put dilute citric acid in the boiler but never seen any fizzing or evidence of scale build up.
Jerry.

southsteyne2

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #68 on: September 25, 2020, 03:59:41 AM »

Hi dbs88 you can shut down the gas with a simple pico switch connected to the receiver and then to a gas cutoff valve with no need for a servo
,yes you are right weed or twigs around the prop can ruin the day.

Cheers
John

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southsteyne2

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2020, 12:37:01 AM »

Hi dbs88  these are the switches I use to shut down the gas supply in an emergency never used it yet but you never know  .https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12V-DC-Electric-Solenoid-Air-Valve-1-8-2-Way-Pneumatic-Aluminum-Gas-Liquid-AU/312895090845?hash=item48da00309d:g:6DYAAOSwGEFd-Ua3&frcectupt=true  The pico switch can be purchased at Hobbyeking
Cheers
John
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KNO3

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2020, 10:32:34 AM »

Interesting solution John,  seems easy enough. But aren't those 12V solenoid valves too large for a model boat?  What pipe connections do you use?
I would appreciate some photos of your installation.
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derekwarner

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2020, 10:46:17 AM »

Evening Calin...if you log onto the link from John, then scroll down....images, dimensions & the full specification is listed


I am still unsure what triggers the alarm/control signal to shut down the 12Vdc power, to allow the N/C valve to shut & isolate gas from the boiler burner?


Derek
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JimG

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2020, 01:31:17 PM »

Check out the parts available for model jets, these use a solenoid valve to stop the fuel flow. This set are 28mm wide, 35mm across the festo fittings and 10mm deep. Would probably need altering to use the normal pipes for gas but the festo fittings are screw in. They have to pass up to 150ml of liquid fuel per minute at full throttle so should pass a lot more gas.https://www.turbinesolutions.co.uk/solenoid-valve-4mm
Jim
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southsteyne2

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #73 on: September 27, 2020, 12:02:29 AM »

Derek the pico switch for gas on-off is actuated by the transmitter or auto whenever the power to the solenoid switch is interrupted .
Cheers
John
 
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derekwarner

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Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #74 on: September 27, 2020, 03:14:26 AM »


Thanks John.....I was not aware of such a device.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGZakWwZUYQ


When I add install both the solenoid valve + the Pico switch it into my theoretical Risk Analysis Study, I get  5 x  :-)) ....4 x <*< ...and 1 x :embarrassed:

One would think that the newer current 2.4GHz signal reliability would be ~~95% as opposed to 27mHz reliability of ~~80% for a surface water model vessels....as opposed to underwater? or in the air environments?

Derek
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Derek Warner

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www.ils.org.au
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