Topic: Novgorod. A Round Russian Monitor. (Read 27655 times)

785boats · « **Reply #100 on:** March 11, 2021, 07:00:59 pm »

Thanks Tony. Some great detail there. But I don't think I've got the patience to add that in under the deck.

Geoff.
There are a few different images of the gun setups as they changed over the years. Initialy muzzle loaded on carraiges, then breech loaded, then the british made articulated mounts.
Buy I'm trying to build this in it's initial setup.
The oldest images I can find, and the two kits that I've come across have the guns on wheeled carraiges, But they are also sitting on sliders of some sort.
The little kit at the start of this thread has the bases at an incline.
The first image below, from a different kit, is the one I basically used for my setup. However I do intend to incline the base. They are just sitting in there in the photos in my previous post.

tonyH · « **Reply #101 on:** March 11, 2021, 07:13:39 pm »

There seem to be loads of stuff on here if you know the gun size. http://russiannavy.net/militaryPhotos/engineering/guns/
As far as I remember, a lot of Russian Artillery was French. Schneider on Canet sliding mounts?

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #102 on:** March 11, 2021, 07:46:16 pm »

Good grief, I love building steam engines......but........getting all those synchronised with out the boat / donut / dinner plate going round and round must have been a nightmare .

Loving this build

tonyH · « **Reply #103 on:** March 12, 2021, 09:56:14 am »

Krupps designed most of the guns at that time with Schneider-Canet following on. Most were manufactured in Russia but some were ordered direct from Krupps at exactly that time. This is the Krupps 28cm (11inch) which could fit the situation.

785boats · « **Reply #104 on:** March 12, 2021, 06:44:28 pm »

Quote from: SteamboatPhil on March 11, 2021, 07:46:16 pm

Good grief, I love building steam engines......but........getting all those synchronised with out the boat / donut / dinner plate going round and round must have been a nightmare .

Loving this build

Hi Phil.
I know very little about steam engines. But my initial thoughts were also that it would be extremely hard to work all 6 engines from forward to reverse to 'tank steer' a boat that always wanted to change direction of its own volition.
Apparantly, later, the outside two engines were deleted as it was deemed that they did nothing for the speed or handling of the ship, except burn extra coal.

This hull has been called a few names now like, fruit bowl, UFO, Parmesan cheese wheel. Now you've added doughnut and dinner plate. Cool.

Cheers.
Paul.

785boats · « **Reply #105 on:** March 12, 2021, 06:57:40 pm »

Quote from: tonyH on March 12, 2021, 09:56:14 am

Krupps designed most of the guns at that time with Schneider-Canet following on. Most were manufactured in Russia but some were ordered direct from Krupps at exactly that time. This is the Krupps 28cm (11inch) which could fit the situation.

Hi Tony.
Thanks for the info & the drawing.
Is that a breech loading gun? with my limited knowlege on these things, I can't tell.
I'm trying to represent the original muzzle loading guns.
Maybe I've copied the wrong gun type from those kits & photos.

Cheers.
Paul.

tonyH · « **Reply #106 on:** March 12, 2021, 08:24:52 pm »

Sorry Paul, I hadn't spotted the muzzle loaded bit

. Krupps, if it was Krupps that actually supplied them, were had both in the 1870's so I'll see what I can find as an m/l option.
Cheers
Tony

derekwarner · « **Reply #107 on:** March 12, 2021, 09:10:24 pm »

Yes, the early Krupp Empire designed and manufactured virtually all of the German pre-WW1 Naval and Land cannons......they later went on to exclusively produce Capital ordinance for the successive German Military regimes

There certainly will be Drawings of the earlier muzzle loading cannon

Derek

warspite · « **Reply #108 on:** March 13, 2021, 10:11:30 am »

Quote from: 785boats on March 12, 2021, 06:57:40 pm

Hi Tony.
Thanks for the info & the drawing.
Is that a breech loading gun? with my limited knowlege on these things, I can't tell.
I'm trying to represent the original muzzle loading guns.
Maybe I've copied the wrong gun type from those kits & photos.

Cheers.
Paul.

That picture of the Krupp 28, is of a breech loader as the shell is shown being lifted to the rear of the barrel - but they dont shown how they pushed the shell in, especially as it is ribbed - ooo matron

tonyH · « **Reply #109 on:** March 13, 2021, 12:08:32 pm »

It actually gets more complicated! I've found a few "academic" papers regarding armament of the 1870's and even, in a spirit of friendship in the day, there are records of the Americans supplying 11inch MLR guns to St Petersburg!
I've always enjoyed this sort of research so even nothing definite appears, I'll keep up the quest!
Tony

tonyH · « **Reply #110 on:** March 13, 2021, 04:56:55 pm »

OK, That's it

I've failed

The Russian fleet used Krupps guns from Germany, Blakeny Ordnance designed guns from the USA, Schneider-Canet guns from France and their own, home made, copies.As far as I can see, and it's been a fair amount of seeing, the barrel shapes for all the possible culprits I can find is the same at the blunt end as you'll see from the pics and nothing like the kit or Pauls mockup.So, in desparation, I actually looked at pics of the contemporary model at Greenwich and, lo an behold, is was the ORIGINAL guns!
So Paul, take your pick!

ballastanksian · « **Reply #111 on:** March 13, 2021, 10:59:25 pm »

My references suggest Krupp guns on Vavasseur style sloping mounts like the gun on my little monitor but then less developed. Being breech loaded, they wold have been cutting edge at the time, certainly superior to our return to muzzle breech loaders especially if Krupp had introduce brass propellant cartridges(probably a later introduction.)

At the end of the day your model does not look toy like like some I have seen so all you are doing is a great improvement. The inner diameter of the turret, and the width of the carriages will dictate the length of your recoil slides but you already have this dimensions should you upgrade your armament at any time.

785boats · « **Reply #112 on:** March 14, 2021, 04:41:19 am »

I've got to say, I really appreciate the research and information all you guys are offering up.
It is absolutely wonderful.
I'll mull it over as to whether to knock the wheels off the caraiges and upgrade the sliders to match the breech loading guns that I've made.
Again, thanks so much.
This morning I started cutting the armour plates for the rim of the deck.

tonyH · « **Reply #113 on:** March 14, 2021, 09:24:08 am »

One thing that did come up was an indication that the two guns could either be trained individually or locked together and trained as a pair, so you may want to allow for that in the mounts.
Next Question?
Tony

Geoff · « **Reply #114 on:** March 15, 2021, 12:46:54 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:11inch_muzzle_loading_rifled_gun(1871)mk2.jpg

Not sure if you have seen this

Cheers

Geoff

785boats · « **Reply #115 on:** March 16, 2021, 07:37:20 am »

Thanks Tony
It's getting complicated now.

Geoff.
No I hadn't seen that.
Thanks for the info.

Cheers guys.

tonyH · « **Reply #116 on:** March 16, 2021, 09:55:20 am »

Focus now Paul

You're doing a great job of the structure and all the important bits I'm sure, whether you decide on original or modified and bearing in mind the modification took place almost while the paint was still wet, you'll make a fine job of whichever.
Just on the subject of bottom paint, you may find the attached causes another sleepless night.

Kind Regards
Tony

Geoff · « **Reply #117 on:** March 16, 2021, 11:32:31 am »

Did you know that due to rust the ship was sliced along the whole waterline and vertically into three or four sections. A replica/replacement lower hull was manufactured and the whole lot welded back together to keep her sound! Google it if you don't believe me - only the Russians would do something like that!

I actually have a book on it where it shows it being done.

Very interesting!

Cheers

Geoff

785boats · « **Reply #118 on:** March 21, 2021, 01:04:01 am »

What a beautiful old ship.
Never seen green below the waterline on a warship before. I think it looks good.

Over the last couple of weeks I've mocked up the funnels from some 40mm pipe & a couple of pipe reducers.
The bases were cut from a couple of spray paint can lids.

I've also made up the rear bridge & the two fly bridges.
Just some 3mm ply for the bases and then planked the same as the main deck, but with 4mm wide planks this time.

Today is a rainy sunday, so I took the opportunity to mark out all the skylights and drill all the holes for the eylets that I'm going to use.
I'll paint them grey and add a disc of clear plastic before I glue them in permanently.

Martin (Admin) · « **Reply #119 on:** March 21, 2021, 09:29:35 am »

Love the edge planking!

tonyH · « **Reply #120 on:** March 21, 2021, 10:35:28 am »

Hi Paul,
The green (Officially Moravian Green) came from early versions of anti-fouling in Italy and elsewhere using copper salts as the active ingredient. Sometimes it was painted over with other paint and sometimes it covered over other paint. There was loads of experimentation at the time and even blue hulls were tried in the USA. Green seemed to suit the fashion and it became a norm in Italy, France and the Austro-Hungarian empire as well as odd instances where ships were either given to or taken by other countries. Apparently, the green hull option continued in Russia until the Cold War.
All good fun!
Tony

785boats · « **Reply #121 on:** March 21, 2021, 10:53:50 pm »

Quote from: Martin [Admin] on March 21, 2021, 09:29:35 am

Love the edge planking!

Thanks Martin.
I was trying to replicate the parts from the kit as seen below.
I'm working on the circular trims for the funnels and ventilators as we speak. (Work has been rained out for today, so some time off.)

Tony.
Another little history lesson. Thanks.
I love learning about these things.

Cheers.
Paul.

785boats · « **Reply #122 on:** March 27, 2021, 04:42:20 am »

This week I painted all the armour plates black and glued them around the edge of the deck.
Also built the skylight and rear superstructures. Simply some 3mm ply with some trims added.
A bit of light oak stain for the ply and then a few coats of varnish over the whole thing.
She's slowly taking shape.

tonyH · « **Reply #123 on:** March 27, 2021, 09:31:18 am »

Looking really good Paul

785boats · « **Reply #124 on:** March 28, 2021, 08:39:42 am »

Thanks Tony.
I've built quite a frw boats over the years, and although this will be the slowest in my fleet, it is fast becoming one of my favorites.
just to let you know, here is my fastest on a test run hitting 118kph (73mph)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JtH-omu4PY&t=4s

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Author Topic: Novgorod. A Round Russian Monitor. (Read 27655 times)