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Author Topic: Second Hand Model Prices  (Read 8746 times)

Shipmate60

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Second Hand Model Prices
« on: February 11, 2008, 10:00:27 pm »

As above,
I popped in to my local model shop today, they had just sold an Imara and Cruiser tugs, with radio, ready to go, for 300-00 each.
That wont even cover the original price of the bare kit.
MADNESS

Bob
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 10:03:31 pm »

I got 1,200 for my Imara back in 1992! It was a new kit then though.
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Stavros

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 10:57:13 pm »

It seems to me that Model shop could not care less what they get for a model all they are interested is PROFIT OR THEIR CUT.I was in a Model shop down south not so long ago,Essex Sussex area's and I was shocked how LOW the Model shops were asking for supposedly their customers models.
We spend hours building them and these so called model shops try to buy these models at rock bottom prices knowing dammed well how much you have spent in the shop,only to sell for a SMALL profit just to make a fast buck.personally I would NEVER buy a secondhand model from a shop for th simple reason that some poor sod has been ripped off by them >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(


Stavros
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 11:17:50 pm »

It seems to me that Model shop could not care less what they get for a model all they are interested is PROFIT OR THEIR CUT.I was in a Model shop down south not so long ago,Essex Sussex area's and I was shocked how LOW the Model shops were asking for supposedly their customers models.
We spend hours building them and these so called model shops try to buy these models at rock bottom prices knowing dammed well how much you have spent in the shop,only to sell for a SMALL profit just to make a fast buck.personally I would NEVER buy a secondhand model from a shop for th simple reason that some poor sod has been ripped off by them >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(


Stavros

But then again Stavros, you are probably talking about kits. Some are put together well and others are just chucked together. Same goes for scratch models I suppose, but like you, I would never dream of selling any of mine to a "Model Shop"....or on e-bay...or anywhere come to think of it! (Apart from my "Mount Washington" sidewheeler that isn't going to sail no more).
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 11:20:57 pm »

I think the problem is that second hand models are built to a very individual taste and often does not appeal to a great number of people other than the builder.

Models are very personal in thier construction, painting, standards, detail etc and I think that most people who buy a second hand model have every intentions of making it thier own by doing further modifications to it.  Unfortunately the number of hours that go into a model has no reflection on it's second hand value, neither does the equipment that has been fitted.  

Not every one wants a noise system, rotating radars or even the particular motor as these are all again down to personal taste.

I think we have to be fair here as well in so far as the model shops haven't stolen these boats the owner was obviously happy to sell it to them in the first place or it may have been a relative glad to be able to get some return for a deceased partners garage full of gear that they would have no idea what to do with.

Maybe the Imara and the Cruiser went to good deserving homes and will be looked after by someone who would not have otherwise been able to own such a model.  I understand that models going so cheaply appears sad but there may be a positive side to it! I certainly don't think it is quite so cut and dried that a model shop is ripping someone off and I actually know of one who sold items from an estate for a lady who had no idea what to do with them but she wanted them to be enjoyed by someone else.  The model shop took nothing from the transaction.

Then again maybe they will not value them and will abuse them until they are wrecked, who knows.  
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 11:24:19 pm »

I wouldn't sell mine anyway, definately NOT on ebay.

Brian, whats wrong with the mt washington, why wont it sail anymore?
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 11:33:33 pm »

I myself probably am a good example.  My wife said to me one day "What on earth am I going to do with all this stuff if you go first?"

Good point, what will she do with it?  It is of no use or value to her so maybe it would be enough for her to know that it has gone to a home where someone may get enjoyment out of it.  Maybe a model shop would be a good place to help her out.

By the way my answer was "Who cares, I won't!!" ::)
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Shipmate60

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 11:40:43 pm »

The model shop is actually quite well respected and 2 of the assistants are modellers themselves.
It isn't a question of ripping people off, the shop buys the model for what the owner wants to sell it for.
Yes they make a profit, but wasn't there a thread recently about model shops closing, if they don't make a profit they WILL close.
The usual rule of thumb for a built model is the price of the kit, unless it is very well built.
I was just amazed at how cheap these well known models went for.
I wouldn't sell my Imara for 300.
So much for all the time and effort and cash for motors ESC's etc.
I sell my models on as I just don't see the point of having a model that wont be sailed, or have the room for that matter.
I am down to my last 6 completed models, with another 7 waiting to be built.
I cant justify having that many just sitting round doing nothing.

Bob
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Stavros

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 11:42:24 pm »

Bunkerbarge are you planning on leaving us if you are please donate  all your models to be auctioned on Mayhem O0 {-)


Stavros
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cos918

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2008, 11:57:44 pm »

hi all. you say how low second hand models are. Well as i help in my local model shop there is this to concider. 1 they are a business and not a Charity shop. your boat might have owe you more than 1000 but it like this. A boat over say 400 to 500 might site on a shelf for fair bit of time. So the shop keeper has money tied up in that item of stock if he put that amount of money in to a bank he get intrest on it. So it is in the shop keeper best intrest to turn the second hand boat round fast, to do this he has to appell to the widest possible crowed he can, and to do that he has to keep the price down as low as he can. Hence you dont get a lot for you boat. Would you expect to get what you payed back for a car.
john

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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 01:05:01 am »

Bunkerbarge are you planning on leaving us if you are please donate  all your models to be auctioned on Mayhem O0 {-)


Stavros

I'll mention it to the missis! O0
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bigford

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 03:00:04 am »

i seen a guy buy a tamiya clod buster truck  for $300+ u.s.d   at my friends hobby shop
and a few weeks later i seen him selll it back to the hobby shop for $150. u.s.d.   
he needed the money. the guy built the truck  and ran it a few times  still in mint shape :'(
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Roger in France

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 06:55:18 am »

I think rushing in and roundly condemning all model shops is another example of the immoderate and ill conceived personal point of view which helps few if anyone.

In my experience, some model shops sell second hand models on behalf of the owner, taking only a modest fee for the service, if any at all. They advise the seller what price it is reasonable to ask but leave the final decision to the seller.

Others will conduct their business differently. For example, I cannot imagine one would get a very good price from those who specifically advertise for used models because if that is their main business they must have to be able to command a significant profit.

Roger in France.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 09:07:58 am »

Ultimately the model is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. It also depends which market you put it in as well. Many of the boats you see in model shops are kits, sometimes rather indifferently made, and essentially they are just secondhand used items with no exclusiveness so they won't command very high prices. On the other hand, if Bryan were to put his completed General Havelock into a Christies specialist Maritime Auction there is a decent chance he would get a pretty good price for it because it is scratch built to a high quality, unique and the right sort of buyers would be looking at it.

Interestingly, a sort of marine antiques shop has just opened in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard where the artists market used to be. Apart from the usual old furniture and pictures, they have quite a bit of nautical memorobilia such as ashtrays, menucards and other items from bygone ships. They also have quite a few models, the quality of which varies from OK to truly awful although the prices asked don't seem to reflect this! Worth a look though, if you are down that way although I doubt if you'd consider buying anything.

And I agree with Roger, I don't think model shops are on the make in this respect. The stuff I've seen in one well known East Sussex shop seems to have been priced pretty realistically to me. Nobody ever got rich making model boats. If you get enough back to help fund the next one you are doing well.

Colin
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dreadnought72

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 09:52:45 am »

The other aspect of this is the word "hobby". To me, that equates with "spending money on a pastime that I enjoy, but don't get a net financial gain from."

If someone loves building, over owning and sailing, then getting some return on their investment by selling their completed model through a model shop isn't such a bad thing.

I'd personally never do it - the amount of time I've invested on my current build would automatically mean it's never going to sell for a fair reflection of the work involved, and who knows what sort of home it'd go to?!  ;)

Andy
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Welsh_Druid

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2008, 09:54:44 am »

I find myself asking the question "what do we build these models for "  - in the expectation that we will be able to sell them at a profit ?  -  or just because we enjoy it ?

Building and sailing boat models (and building and flying slope soaring model gliders) is my hobby, entertainment, relaxation.  

Other people do other things, going to the theatre, drinking in the pub, smoking cigarettes, working on their garden, driving around the countryside and so on.

But the one thing that all these have in common is that they cost money, give pleasure to the individual at the time but none of the expense can be recouped when the activity is finished.

So why should we expect to have our pleasure and then expect someone else to pay for it ( for that is what you are doing if you expect a high price for your now unwanted model).

I dont sell my models on - maybe I am not sure that others would think them built well enough - I dont know, but  with my modelling I am getting pleasure, I expect to pay for it and do not expect to recoup any of  the costs afterwards.

Don B.
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Welsh_Druid

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2008, 10:23:15 am »


I am down to my last 6 completed models, with another 7 waiting to be built.
I cant justify having that many just sitting round doing nothing.

Bob

This is slightly of topic - sorry.

Back in the middle 70's  my gliding partner and I went to buy a (full size) Sailplane off a chap. He wanted 12,000 for it - a LOT of money in those days - but it was a very high performance one and that was what we wanted.   Whilst talking it emerged that not only did he own this Sailplane but that he had another (even more costly) for himself, a half share in a two seater and a power plane.

My wife said to him " how can you justify all that expense just for a hobby" ? 

He put his arm round her shoulders and said " My Dear - one should never put a limit on ones self indulgence"

 O0

Don B.
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bogstandard

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2008, 02:25:07 pm »

Quote
So why should we expect to have our pleasure and then expect someone else to pay for it ( for that is what you are doing if you expect a high price for your now unwanted model).

This sort of quote really annoys me. It is the mental attitude of a lot of model boaters nowadays. They want everything for nothing.

I advertised a lot of model boat stuff a few months back, and the people who came to see me and purchased, got a lot more than what they paid for, didn't we Stav. Unfortunately I still have two rather expensive boats left, never to be finished or sailed again, purely because the cost of building them with all the interior electronics cost far more than I put them up for sale for.
Am I not supposed to try and recoup some of my losses because I cannot build them any more, or sell them to someone who thinks I should give them away because I have had a bit of pleasure out of making them.
I build my boats with quality in mind and to last, and there are many of them in careful hands being enjoyed by people over twenty years after I have made them. Personally I would rather put them into the loft and let them rot away rather than be forced into letting them go for a pittance. In fact in a couple of months I am redoing all my workshop, so if they don't go, they will be put up in the loft until I snuff it, then they will most probably end up down the local tip.
Yet these sort of people will buy off the wheelie bin shop (sorry ebay), and are surprised when they get a bagful of garbage that takes more money to put right than the original kit cost.
I don't think that 650 for a part built kit that has WELL over 1000 invested in it is a bad buy, and even at that stage it has more time invested because of the special anchor winch that I have manufactured and slomo units that have been put into it. Again bits not found on ordinary models. All the hard work and research has been done, just cosmetic from now on.

Very sorry gents, you want quality, you got to pay for it. You want junk and hassle, go buy it from elsewhere, you will soon have a big enough collection of junk to burn on bonfire night (or pass on to some other gullible person after a BARGAIN on ebay).

Just don't think that all modellers make junk. Some of us do care how we build them, and we would not think of overcharging for our time and expertise.

John
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sheerline

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2008, 03:21:40 pm »

I am always amazed at how little people expect to pay for a second hand model. Take for instance the chap who spends 600 odd quid for a submarne kit, he fits it out with radio etc then makes a superb job of painting and finishing it. After a year or so of looking after his pride and joy he thinks about selling it on but then comes the big question... how much is it worth? Now this may be a superbly finished and working boat, nicely fitted out and everything ship shape but the expectations of the potential buyer is that he will in no way pay anything like the outlay price on the part of the owner because he has been buying cheap cr-p for years and seen a lot of it in his time. So the seller has to drop his price to an unrealistically low figure to move it and the buyer has a grin all over his face as he loads it into his car.
If you don't desperately need to get rid of a good model, don't drop your price.  If we all did it, it would leave just the rubbish out there and perhaps potential buyers would eventually realise what real value there is in a beautifully finished, fully working and ready to go model. If someone thinks your having a bit of a laugh with your price, the simple answer is tell them to go buy a kit and radio gear then build one for themselves. The only reason they want yours is to save themselves time and money... and effort... and maybe they just don't have the skills.
Lets face it, if they commisioned someone to build and fit out their own kit.... they would get the shock of their lives! 
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westcoaster

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2008, 03:48:19 pm »

Isn't the issue here the fact that the models are second hand.
Ever bought a brand new car then decided it wasn't the one for you after a few weeks and not many miles later.
Did the dealer offer you anything near the price you paid to take it back as a trade in.  No??  I rest my case.
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Shipmate60

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2008, 04:26:19 pm »

Westcoaster
Your theory just doesn't hold water.
One reason a car loses money is very simple VAT. VAT is payable on a new car, not on a second hand one, so expect to lose 17.5% just by signing the log book.
Up until now a fully operational model would be expected to be sold for the price of the kit, or thereabouts for a run of the mill model.
As for example the Imara for 300.
The kit is over 450
Motors, ESC's etc another 100
Radio set 100
so far we have 1050 EXCLUDING paints, glues etc and TIME.
As it is a hobby I don't include time as has been said previously it is my hobby.

The only way I could afford to get back into this hobby a good few years ago was to buy second hand, refurbish them, use them then sell them.
I just cant count the number of models that I have made/refurbished, well over 100 in over 30 yrs.
I don't physically have the room to keep them all or the desire to maintain them.
In the past I have given some away to lads who couldn't afford to buy their own.

The models I have waiting to be built are all kits, but there are also a few scratch built ones that I want to build.
I have been selling models recently as I consider that I have too many to sail and use so am down to the numbers stated.
To me it just seems a shame to have perfectly good operational models sitting in my garage loft.

Bob
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sheerline

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2008, 04:55:56 pm »

When a 'model' is in kit form it isn't really a model of a boat until it is built... a bit like an unbuilt 'car' on an assembly line...it's not a car until it is built so taking this logic further, if a chap builds a kit into a beautiful model boat and doesn't use it, surely this is a 'new' boat and as it's now built, isn't it worth more than the kit? Obviously not in the eyes of most potential buyers.
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westcoaster

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2008, 05:26:11 pm »

Shipmate60, you are completely entitled to disagree with me, but please, not on the basis of totally inaccurate statements. VAT is payable on second hand cars so that is one theory of yours that doesn't hold water.
Best Wishes
Douglas
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meechingman

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2008, 05:34:08 pm »

I think you'll find that, after much argument when VAT first came in, a few trades like the car sales business and my own field at the time, electronic organ sales, were made special cases.

VAT was paid not on the entire value of the second hand car or organ, but only on the profit margin that the dealer had made on it. After all, the dealer could not reclaim any VAT from what he had effectively paid the customer for his trade in. All sorts of funny deals were (and probably still are) done to legally avoid VAT. I doubt if things have changed.

If I'm way out of date on this for cars, let me know, but I know that's how it still is for organs etc!

Andy
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2008, 06:18:46 pm »

I wouldn't sell mine anyway, definately NOT on ebay.

Brian, whats wrong with the mt washington, why wont it sail anymore?
Nothing wrong with the model...as a model. (Pictures elsewhere on the forum). I had never built a paddler before and ignorantly assumed it would be like my usual ships but with wheels on the side. Wrong. What started out as an exercise in building a wooden framed beam engine quickly became a "building the whole ship" project. She is at 1:48 scale making it about 40" long. The hull is only around 7" wide but 14" across the paddles. The centre of the paddles is about 3" to 4" above the waterline. Begin to see my problem? Balance! I even cut the hull and deepened it, that sort of cured the balance problem but put the afterdeck just about underwater. I spent DAYS cutting out the paddle wheels in brass. Too heavy, but works of art, even if I say so myself! The beam engine looks fine. But as I don't really know how to correct all my (stupid) mistakes....she has to go. I guess we all have at least one failure, and this is mine. Someone better versed than me can probably get it to work properly, but there she sits, forelorn. Sob. BY.
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