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Author Topic: Second Hand Model Prices  (Read 8747 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2008, 06:29:05 pm »

Probably perfectly OK if viewed as a static model Bryan.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2008, 06:33:55 pm »

Isn't the issue here the fact that the models are second hand.
Ever bought a brand new car then decided it wasn't the one for you after a few weeks and not many miles later.
Did the dealer offer you anything near the price you paid to take it back as a trade in.  No??  I rest my case.

I'm sorry but I can't see the comparisson between an item purchased as made by a manufacturer the same as all the other thousands of them out there and an item made by an individual, by hand, in a specific, individual and personal way and which has taken many hundreds of hours to build.

If you want to compare with road vehicles then at least look at the custom car or motorcycle market where, strangely enough, they also never seem to achieve the high prices the time, skill and number of hours would tend to suggest.

If you are resting your case on that I can see the lawyers rubbing thier hands already!! ::)
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Sub driver

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2008, 06:54:10 pm »

A model , any model is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, nothing else. :)
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2008, 08:02:38 pm »

Probably perfectly OK if viewed as a static model Bryan.
It is actually pretty good looking as a "static", but it wasn't meant to be that way. Live and learn I guess.
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elmo

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2008, 08:08:41 pm »

A model , any model is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it, nothing else. :)

I agree, and that principle is the same for virtually anything and everything - hence we get auctions so that (in theory) an item should be able to find its own worth by the quantity of (or lack of) bids...
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Shipmate60

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2008, 08:18:03 pm »

Westcoaster,
Just to finish one part off.
VAT is payable on new cars. VAT is payable on Commercial vehicles, not on private second hand car sales.
I assume you have sold a car on, did you pay VAT on the sale price to HMG?
But I am not talking about cars, as BunkerBarge has said, we are talking about a 1 off. Yes even a kit.
I understand fully that something is only worth what someone will pay for it, but prices do seem to be depressed.
The only point I was making on starting this thread was that prices seem to be depressed.

Bob
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westcoaster

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2008, 08:59:35 pm »

Shipmate 60,  This VAT business is after all secondary to the point of this thread and I've no wish to contribute to pushing it "off topic".
However I'm sitting here reading the Dealers invoice for the second hand car I bought my wife a couple of years ago - It reads - total vehicle price £6309.69,Road fund licence £57.75, Network Q guarantee £105.00, VAT £1122.56,Total Sale Price £7595.00.
I'm saying no more about this
Best Wishes
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cos918

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2008, 09:01:28 pm »

there is another possible reason. Every thing go in cycles.   
Look on ebay airfix queen Elizabeth kits have been going for £16+ .That more than in the shops when it was out, then you have pp on that. At the moment the demand is high so prices are high which is good for sellers. In the futher demand may drop and prices drop which is good for buyers.
Also what doesn't help people get a good price for the models is the shocking bad way it is advertised with poor useless photos. There is no way that they can hope to get a good price and they only have them selves to blame.
john
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tubby

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2008, 09:06:28 pm »

Vat is chargable on second hand cars,
If you sell a secondhand car yourself you can not charge vat
if you are not registered as you have no vat number and can not issue
a vat invoice.
 
Barry
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Shipmate60

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2008, 09:08:43 pm »

 :)

Bob
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Bee

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2008, 09:57:26 pm »

A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2008, 10:08:43 pm »

A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked (about "Baroda") by both kids and their fathers where they could buy the kit. Invariably they have not believed that a model is not built from a kit....sometimes with colourful language.
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Shipmate60

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2008, 10:38:00 pm »

Manheim Auctions – Officially Britain’s Number One Car & Van ...As a rule, there is no VAT on used cars. However, in addition to the hammer price VAT is applicable on most commercial vehicles and plant. ...

 :angel:  :angel:  :angel:

Bob
 
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bogstandard

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2008, 10:40:09 pm »

I reckon in the clubs I have belonged to, at least 50% of the members had bought their boats ready built, usually from club members. Also in the last few years, RTS boats are coming on to the market (Graupner Graf Spee as an example), fairly expensive, but not overly so (but are very basic models), are these to be classed as second hand? Just because they are ready built. A few people just won't or can't build for themselves, and when they saw mine sailing asked how much I would sell it to them for. Most of them snatched my hand off when I told them, because they realised they were getting a model that was, although from a kit, unique, well built and reliable.

Quote
If you don't desperately need to get rid of a good model, don't drop your price.  If we all did it, it would leave just the rubbish out there and perhaps potential buyers would eventually realise what real value there is in a beautifully finished, fully working and ready to go model. If someone thinks your having a bit of a laugh with your price, the simple answer is tell them to go buy a kit and radio gear then build one for themselves. The only reason they want yours is to save themselves time and money... and effort... and maybe they just don't have the skills.
Lets face it, if they commissioned someone to build and fit out their own kit.... they would get the shock of their lives!

I love that reply, maybe if a few of us who build good quality models followed this bit of advice, people just might start to realise just how much time, effort and cash goes into a scale model, even if a heavily modified kit, and start to realise that there is a big difference between an el cheapo runabout off ebay, and a well made scale model.
I do know of people that just go around buying boats from people willing to sell them too cheaply, then hacking them around the local clubs and selling them at large profits, usually after the internals are stripped out and sold elsewhere, usually ruining a perfectly set up model in the process.

Stick to your guns, stick to your prices and don't let these b's make a living out of our hard work.

John

Please, VAT on cars has sod all to do with selling model boats.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2008, 08:31:38 pm »

On the same subject, although a little macabre. A couple of years ago one of our members died, leaving his models in the club-house lockers. Soon afterwards a pair of "heavies" appeared at the clubhouse stating that they were relatives and were claiming the property. They chose the wrong day. I don't think they will try that scam again in Tynemouth. But it must happen all over the country. These parasites have no morals, no sense of decency and no regard for anything apart from "money". A pox on them all.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2008, 10:19:32 pm »

A few disjoint thoughts...

Who wants to buy a built boat anyway? The people on here mostly are interested in building though some buy something if they are slow at getting their main project built. the actual using of the item is only 1/10th of the hobby.
The number of people who get any joy out of just floating a boat made by someone else is very very small. This hobby is all about building, then silaing because you have built it yourself. (one of the reasons the instant plastic boats kids get now only get tried once)
The concept of a kit is a problem because it costs a disproportionate amount to produce in small volumes. People are used to the assesment of value of things that are mass produced.
Since the purpose of a kit is to be built if it has already been built it has lost much of its raison d'etre.
A cubic yard of concrete mix costs $100 and has great and varied potential. Mix and lay it on your drive and it is useful, and of indeterminate value. Need to get rid of it to lay some grass and it costs you money to have it taken away.
Pay money for some canvas and paint. Leonardo could make that worth millions, a modern artist can make it worth less than the materials.
When I first came on to this forum I made it very clear that I considered kit boats (in general, but with exceptions) to be building somebody elses model. Much castigation ensued. Pariah. A kit is the model equivelant of a Ford Fiesta..lots of them, except that some are built better than others. But none of them are worth much as they are (indeed) "kits".  I really do believe that the rise in kit building and the decline in decent scratch building has skewed the market for sellers of good boats. I make no apology for this, nor have I attempted to sell a boat, but "kits" are "kits" and should never be equated to building a model. Kits are great for those who wish to sail model boats. Kits are great for those who wish to learn. But NEVER ever think that a mass produced item will command a price commensurate with that of a well researched, well built and unique scratch built item. Kits is kits, toys for the boys. Enjoy.
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2008, 10:22:59 pm »

Quote from: Bryan Young
When I first came on to this forum I made it very clear that I considered kit boats (in general, but with exceptions) to be building somebody elses model. Much castigation ensued. Pariah. A kit is the model equivelant of a Ford Fiesta..lots of them, except that some are built better than others. But none of them are worth much as they are (indeed) "kits".  I really do believe that the rise in kit building and the decline in decent scratch building has skewed the market for sellers of good boats. I make no apology for this, nor have I attempted to sell a boat, but "kits" are "kits" and should never be equated to building a model. Kits are great for those who wish to sail model boats. Kits are great for those who wish to learn. But NEVER ever think that a mass produced item will command a price commensurate with that of a well researched, well built and unique scratch built item. Kits is kits, toys for the boys. Enjoy.


Yeah yeah same old Bryan, don't you ever learn, you just cant resist it can you. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #42 on: February 13, 2008, 10:40:12 pm »

Bryan is basically right though. The big auction houses have cottoned on to the difference between kits and scratch built models. It's quality and uniqueness which commands the best prices. In a sense it is the increase in quality of the average kit which is depressing prices. Now almost any reasonably competent modeller can build a good quality model by following the instructions and sticking the bits together. If you are the builder and the model is for you then that's fine. But there is no exclusiveness and therefore resale prices will inevitably be low. Quality, craftmanship and uniqueness will always command a premium price just as it does in other fields.
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2008, 10:55:33 pm »

He may be right Colin but you know the same as I do that he has caused more aggro than enough in the past  with his digs at people who build kits and who are therefore not as clever as him. He's had several warnings and been banned once and still he trys to wind people up. >>:-(
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2008, 11:08:36 pm »

Seems to have succeeded there then Richard!  {-) {-) {-)

Take it with a pinch of salt.
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2008, 11:19:05 pm »

Thats moderation then. :( >:(
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2008, 11:29:05 pm »

Well, you may not agree with the post but I don't think it was actually offensive as such. What Bryan says does reflect market conditions. As far as the instrinsic value of kits is concerned, he has his views and others have theirs, everyone is entitled to an opinion but in the end that's all it is - just an opinion. I can't get too worked up about it myself - and I'm actually building a kit at the moment.
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OMK

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2008, 12:35:55 am »

Mr. Bish', what is it with you? Are you on drugs or something? How come you always ALWAYS give top-notch answers?
I can't help but admire the way you make your point. Never at any time do we hear you resorting to some two-bit, back-stabbing malarky.
Total respect, my man!
But Brian Young?... a smart bum??
Yeah, I know.
I'd swap both testicles to have even a squillionth of his know-how. The man hates using hyphens where he should be using 'em, but he obviously knows the difference 'twixt kit and quality.

" - and I'm actually building a kit at the moment."

Seen it already. A copy of Furness Warren, right?
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offshore1987

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2008, 01:04:00 am »

Not really sure what to make of all this  ::) 

After startin and buildin my Tito Neri for 4+ years on and off, iv injoyed some of it but iv hated other parts, i think if anything it has put me off of ever building another kit, 2 year or close to it after startin the tito, i went into my local model shop ( i drove there on my ped at the time ) went in saw the new thunder tiger rtr little model fishing boat, was priced at near to £200, it took me all of 2 mins after lookin at it to drive home order a taxi then go back with the money and i got it there and then  O0

I guess the point im making is that the tito is in the graupner book as easyish to build ( and the guy at the model shop said it was an easy build ) which imo is so wronge its unreal, nothing fits right and its a pain to build, so when i saw the rtr boat i fell in love with it ( this was the first real time id seen a rtr with this much detail ) Even though i had a model kit half built that has cost me a STUPID amount of money ( i know a ruff idear of what its cost me and i feel sick about it ) i still spent the other £200 on a boat i could just take down the lake anytime and plop in the water and have fun with, i even forgot about the tito for a year while i played with the rtr boat ( which always had people lookin at it )  :D

After all this and the time its taken to finally get the tito neri finished and the money its cost, its put me off alot  :(  If i ever get another model boat i think il buy a ARTR or RTR and not get something that will sit in the box for years, Though it will be nice to be at the lake and when someone asks "where did you buy that from or did you build that" i can say yes i built her my self  O0 but i think havin something that can be at the lake for someone to say those things in the first place is better lol = rtr or artr or even having a model built by someone else  O0

all the best
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2008, 02:42:47 am »

I think Offshore1987 says it perfectly.  He buys what he wants, goes down to the pond and enjoys the social environment of a few friends together sharing an enjoyment of a relaxing sail.  Most mornings I am sailing something I purchased second hand, some are scratch, come are kit and some are semi.  Who cares?

I certainly would not dream of looking down on him because he brings an rtr boat to the water I'd simply appreciate the fact that he's there and wants to share a bit of his day with me.  Unfortunately you just don't seem to get the same open mindedness from a minority of the scratchbuild modellers.  Too many  seem to think they are the only ones that can make a model and all other genre's are looked down thier noses at.

As far as we are concerned at my club we are all model boaters and that's why I think we have such an open and friendly atmosphere in the club.  We have out of the box plastic yachts sailing alongside scratchbuilt plank on frame yachts and full scale yachts and it doesn't occur to any of us to classify each other.  We simply enjoy each others company and the pleasure of a bit of time together.  I think too many people miss that point nowadays in thier strivings to outdo each other.

Maybe I should start to look down on electric driven boats as not proper models because they are not steam driven.  Safe in the knowledge, of course, that everyone else must be an idiot because they don't understand steam!! ::)
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