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Author Topic: Second Hand Model Prices  (Read 8758 times)

bigford

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2008, 03:39:45 am »

will i get all the money back that i invested in building a 1/50 smit rotterdam ?
1) $300.00 for the billings kit
2) $129.00 for the scroll saw
3) $150.00 for drill press
4) $130.00 for the belt sander
5) $100. enlarging the copies
6) 50.00 for marine plywood

 keep in mind that if i was not building this boat i would not need the tools listed. so to me they have to be part of the cost of a semi scratch built type of boat (i'm not sure if i'm scratch building or not) by the time the ship is done it could be well worth over $2000.00. i dont think i will ever
see that money back.  but i would hope to get close to the money invested forget the time :angel:
BUT if i needed the green i would let it go for less :(
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banjo

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2008, 07:36:47 am »

I agree completely with Brian.  Model making is an art form.  Take some time out to visit the museums in Sunderland or Newcastle and you will see the models built for Ship Owners, from a time when we we built ships, wonderful.
Brian is of that ilk, building models equal or better.

There is also some outrageous cr*p about too; not every scratch builder comes up to scratch!

I build from kits or semi kits.   That is because I am not equipped with the skills or patience to do do otherwise.

There are some folk about who rate themselves too highly, I think Brian's remarks go to the heart of that problem.   He is good at model making, some others only think they are; however, that said, there is room enough on the Pond and in this Forum for us all, without ever having to fall out about it.

 O0

PS Re-read this...can you fall out from a pond?
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OMK

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2008, 07:54:41 am »

"PS Re read this...can you fall out from a pond?"

Good point.
Which goes back to that old airplane scene......

Paddy and Mick are flying in an open cockpit two-seater.

"Hey, Mick, if we fly upside-down, will we fall out?"
"Nah, we'll still be friends."

Scratch... kit... does it really matter? I guess Offshore nailed it when he mentioned the magic ingredient....... it should only be about FUN.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2008, 09:28:21 am »

I agree with most of the foregoing comments, in the end it's what you personally want to get out of the hobby that's important. Some people prefer the building process, some enjoy running the models as a social activity, some like a bit of both in varying proportions. In that sense all model boaters are pretty much equal.

Where we get confused sometimes is in assuming that the type of boating you enjoy somehow defines your worth as a person. I think most people would agree that somebody who does original research, draws up their own plans and then scratch builds a model to a really high standard has achieved rather more than somebody who has built a kit based model. But you can't use that to argue that the former is a superior human being. The kit builder may be a brain surgeon looking for a bit of R&R! Almost all the really great scratch builders I have known have been pretty modest types. They are confident in their skills but don't see this as a reason to assert themselves over the "lower orders". Instead they will tend to encourage you to improve your own slkill sets and pass on hints, tips and advice just as most of us on this Forum are happy to go out of our way to help others wherever we can.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2008, 09:52:13 am »

I think that's it in a nutshell Colin.  Take people as a person not as a scratchbuilder, kit maker etc.  We have a couple of extreemly competent scratchbuilders in our club but you would never know it to talk to them.  They are simply very friendly, generous people who enjoy there hobby as much as the guy sailing his out of the box plastic yacht alongside them. 

That I think is one of the greatest aspects of my own club and one of the things that makes me feel quite proud to be a part of it.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2008, 10:36:35 am »

The only time you are likely get your money is if you are building a commission for somebody generous.  Otherwise, you are building for your own enjoyment, and that is difficult to put a price on.
The point about a well made scratch built model being unique and therefore having a higher intrinsic value at the auction house is fair enough, but pity the scratch builder who makes a superb model, and then the following year, a kit or RTR of the same prototype appears on the market. 
At a show a few years back, the best in show went to an Edwardian lake launch.  Beautifully scratch built.  There were people who refused to believe it wasn't one of the kits of the same prototype, and seemed unable to comprehend that the two models would look much alike.
And then there are the auction houses themselves.  On a recent "flog it" type show a guy had an old tinplate train set.  "0" gauge.  The presenter "expert" pronounced it as a Hornby clockwork set, as did the auctioneer.  Nobody seemed to have seen the great big makers name of "Mettoy" printed on the box in four inch letters, and appearing on every single part in the box.
However much time, effort, skill and resources you have put into your model, it is worth in money what you can get for it on the day.
A model shop has to guess what the market is like in their area.  Putting a price on that is pleasant for the seller may stop it ever selling, and having a possibly large item taking up space that is being paid for might not do the shop owner any good.  At the end of the chain, the person paying the money decides the price, either by agreeing with the price on the label, haggling it down, or moving on.
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Colin H

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2008, 02:37:17 pm »

My Two pennies worth,

If you build models to earn a living then you have to worry about the price.

If you build models as a hobby to enjoy the build or to enjoy a day at the pond with others of a like mind then you really should not take resale value into account. You have already had your monies worth.

Colin H.
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djrobbo

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2008, 03:31:10 pm »

Exactly the same problem i used to have restoring classic cars.........people could'nt understand why it could cost two to three toimes more to restore their basket case than it was worth to sell when it was done..........case in point .....one of my customers went and bought a mk2 daimler sovereign ( s type jag with a boot ) for 3500 pounds......it was a bucket of poo............in the end it cost him somewhere round 12000 pounds to bring up to show level......the going price for a nice example at that time was 5000 pounds...........moral.....when building something for your own enjoyment and pleasure the cost should not come in to it.....................

    question........i have loads of plans , mostly vic smeeds , but not all , if i build from someone elses plan where does that place me in the grand scheme of things ?? O0

          regards......bob.
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Colin H

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2008, 03:39:29 pm »

Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.
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elmo

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2008, 03:58:53 pm »

Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.

Yep, very sad eh Colin - I agree with you, but its called oneupmanship or in order words, down right snobbery - its crap, but as 'Old Blue Eyes' said, that's life!  :'(

Surely even real boats are built from kits - and from plans someone else has drawn up - from a design someone else did - from an idea someone had! For goodness sakes, where on earth are we going with this anyway....!!  :(
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2008, 04:08:32 pm »

Probably the same place we went when Brian last looked down his nose at kit builders on here. ::)
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2008, 04:18:30 pm »

KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"  >>:-(
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offshore1987

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2008, 04:40:41 pm »

I guess my first reply is diffrent to most people because the lake i use is an open water to start with, so you dont have a peg thingy and what not, even though iv almost finished the tito i wouldnt look down at people that turn up with rtr or artr boats either brand new or second hand stuff, oks at times you get people that turn up have no idear and put their boat in water and its the same chip as someone elses that is sailing, Iv seen modelers going right off on one and having ago at them, but i think is this wronge, when iv been sailin and someone turns up and it get  interference i just walk along and explain whats gone on and how that people ask when they turn up what others are on  :angel:  after all everyone should be there to get along and have a good time sailing

Shouldnt this be a etiquette hobby?
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sheerline

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2008, 04:51:41 pm »

Elmo made a good point about scratch building, we all tend to use plans...drawn up by someone else. Think on this, if a chap designed his own boat, drew his own plans and of course, scratch built it... would modelling purists turn their noses up because it wasn't a model of a full size prototype? My experience has been that they do and despite the excellence and build quality of the 'model', it tends not to rate alongside the other boats it's moored up against at the pond. It's a real shame that these types of builder aren't given the praise they deserve as their boats are definately unique ine very sense of the word.
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barryfoote

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2008, 04:57:57 pm »

Bob,

Your statement about plans helps put scratch building into perspective. How about if you want to correctly scratch build first cut your tree, then dig your iron ore etc etc, This disagreement could go on forever why can't people just enjoy the ride.

Yours Colin H.

Yep, very sad eh Colin - I agree with you, but its called oneupmanship or in order words, down right snobbery - its crap, but as 'Old Blue Eyes' said, that's life!  :'(

Surely even real boats are built from kits - and from plans someone else has drawn up - from a design someone else did - from an idea someone had! For goodness sakes, where on earth are we going with this anyway....!!  :(
Okay I have been reading this thread with growing displeasure as it has grown. Colin..You are absolutely spot on....

I have been building model ships for over 20 years, both kits and scratch built. I am not a professional and lack many of the skills required to be a really good scratch builder. I also lack many of the expensive tools needed. What I am is very keen. I love my hobby and have had great fun scratch building. That said..The best fun has been building kits, modifying them where required to achieve accuracy and learning a lot as I go along. I was once snubbed by a professional scratch builder at an exhibition because he came 1st 2nd and third....The rest of us mere mortals languished behind. This is very sad and Mr Young does less to promote the art than the most basic builder who simply tries his best.

Barry >:( >:( >>:-(
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2008, 05:04:37 pm »

Good point Sheerline, I think they do sometimes which, as I said earlier, just demonstrates that there are as many different opinions as there are modellers. Why should any one opinion be elevated over another? Seems from this thread that some people believe that there is a universal truth lurking out there as to what is right or wrong. There isn't!

Another twist to this is that Alex McFadyen's 9 foot long model of a G3 battlecruiser which won a Gold medal at last year's Ascot ME Exhibition depicted a ship that was never actually built - although they did draw the plans up for it. It really brought to liife a vessel that was almost constructed and was a really creative project based on rock solid research. Fantastic piece of work which was acknowledged as such.

Quote
KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"   

Isn't that just putting words in people's mouths Richard? I don't think that personalising things helps the debate.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2008, 05:12:42 pm »

Quote
I was once snubbed by a professional scratch builder at an exhibition because he came 1st 2nd and third....The rest of us mere mortals languished behind.

Footski - you make it sound as if you had an inferiority complex! The guy who did the snubbing was the inferior person however good his models may have been. Also was the competition staged fairly? If you get marks for the amount of work put into the model then putting scratchbuilt and kit models in the same class is like comparing apples and pears. You simply cannot have a fair competition if everything gets lumped in together, although some organisers seem to think you can.
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DickyD

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2008, 05:42:22 pm »


Quote
KenP is making the Victory. Suppose Brian would class this as a "kit" and "a boys toy"   

Isn't that just putting words in people's mouths Richard? I don't think that personalising things helps the debate.

What would you like me to do Colin, generalize like Bryan and lump all scratch builders into the same category as him.  I don't think so.
I know to many likeable ones.
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chingdevil

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Re: Second Hand Model Prices
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2008, 06:05:06 pm »

MODERATED

Due to some of the comments appearing in this thread, and the fact it has wandered away from the original posting. this thread is now LOCKED

Brian
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