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[Patternmaker]

I am going to build a Stuart 10v engine with reverse gear from sets of castings, have any steam enthusiast's built
one

[HS93 (RIP)]

there is one hear , http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1163270  and I think there is one on http://madmodder.net/index.php but you will have to look but it is recent plus there have been a few on http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php the last to will give you more insight on machining the parts , but you may already be a member, what mill have you bought ?

peter

[gondolier88]

If you plan to use it in a model boat you will need to build the D10 rather than the 10V as singles aren't always self starting- the D10 is two 10V's side by side.

Greg

[HS93 (RIP)]

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1297714   and anothe r http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3633.0  both 10v

Peter

[Patternmaker]

Clarke CMD 10 mill, I also have a vertical mill attachment which fits my CL 300 lathe, a very useful bit of kit, attached photo, this engine and boiler in Thames steam launch Miranda were scratch built on this
machine.
Gregg as for not self starting, news to me, if the valve chest, crankshaft  bearings, eccentric sheave and timing are correct and machined correctly should start every time.

A boat for a D10 would need to be 6ft plus with a 4”dia 9” boiler

[Circlip]

Sorry Patternmaker, a single Ten is not self starting, an artical in Muddle Boats a while ago gave details of a baring engine to do just this. You need two cylinders for self starting as has been stated. Borderer or Marcher twins wouldn't need a 6Ft long vessel.

  Regards  Ian.

 Edit, BTW, your Miranda, both boat and plant look superb.

[HS93 (RIP)]

Clarke CMD 10 mill, I also have a vertical mill attachment which fits my CL 300 lathe, a very useful bit of kit, attached photo, this engine and boiler in Thames steam launch Miranda were scratch built on this
machine.
Gregg as for not self starting, news to me, if the valve chest, crankshaft  bearings, eccentric sheave and timing are correct and machined correctly should start every time.

A boat for a D10 would need to be 6ft plus with a 4”dia 9” boiler

I have the warco version but converted to CnC plus hand use http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machine-Spares/Super-X1-Spares, this firm is good for spares and things like the long bed conversion, there are plenty of sites for the X1 mill a good conversion is the belt drive makes a vast improvement. I think it is a good machine but you need sharp cutters for steel and tram the head.the link to rc groups the chap is using the same mill and is in the UK if you need any info

Peter

[Patternmaker]

Sorry Patternmaker, a single Ten is not self starting, an artical in Muddle Boats a while ago gave details of a baring engine to do just this. You need two cylinders for self starting as has been stated. Borderer or Marcher twins wouldn't need a 6Ft long vessel.

  Regards  Ian.

 Edit, BTW, your Miranda, both boat and plant look superb.

Thanks Ian
The only time this single cylinder engine would not be self starting is If the engine stopped at top or bottom dead centre and would have no starting torque The other characteristic though of a slide valve engine is the fact that the valve can be infinitely adjusted to admit steam at just the right time in the cycle. This will usually be slightly before top dead centre.


So basically Greg is correct it might not be self starting everytime.



















 

[Circlip]

Sorry M8, don't matter how infinately you adjust the valve in relation to TDC or BDC, if the valve is covering all the ports when stopped, it remains stopped, there's nowt to turn it over. However, with a twin where the cranks are at 90Deg. to each other, there's never a dead point.

  Regards Ian.

[Patternmaker]

Ian, I am only quoting what Stuart Turner the manufacturers told me.


Regards Mick

[Circlip]

Manufacturers have been known to "Garnish" the truth, helps with sales.

  If you check the overall height of the ports, top to bottom of the holes, add the three holes and two solids and then compare with the valve length.

  Regards  Ian

[HS93 (RIP)]

Kiwi modeler has one on hear and he has always said it Wont self start plus I have never heard or seen a single self start and I have been about steam to long, also think of using a gear box to reverse, then you can run it with a throttle And go  in reverse with out stooping Kiwi uses a variable pitched prop to get reverse and stop like this one, unfortunately not available

Peter

[gondolier88]

I wasn't SUGGESTING it might not self start, I'm TELLING you it won't! If there was any possibility that you could have both the top and bottom bottom ports open to steam you wouldn't have a working engine! As such you will have a point where all three ports are covered- either just before or just after TDC or BDC, depending on how you set the engine up- though you should always have more lead on the BDC than top as this is the cushion for the piston hitting the bottom cylinder cover.

Why would you need a boat 6ft or longer for a D10- i'm building one to go in my 50" steam pinnace hull?

Greg

[ooyah/2]

Hi Patternmaker,
All the guys are quite correct in that a 10V is not self starting even with reversing gear.
As you have said if it stops at TDC or BDC it will not start, the valve is 1/2" long and the distance over the inlet and exhaust ports is 7/16" so if it stops at a point where the valve covers both ports it's a non starter..
To time the 10V it's the valve has to be opening a crack AFTER TDC in the direction that you wish the engine to run and then check at BDC and the gap should be the same, this is done by moving the eccentric sheave to get the gap required.
Greg , forget about lap and lead on these small engines for if you have lead on the bottom stroke you will need it on the top stroke. remember we are discussing model engines not full size and these engines are very adaptable to machining inaccuracies.
I have built many 10V's and none have been self starting and Greg is quite correct on the D 10 being a self starter.
I have tried reversing with Stevenson's reverse and it's a non starter.

Here is one with a reversing gearbox using Meccano gears and slip eccentric . This one was 90% effective.
 




This one had slip eccentric with a lever operated revers e gearbox



Same gearbox different engine.


Engine with Stevenson link.



None of them were 100% reliable so this winter I will machine up a set of D10 castings with Stevenson link reverse for my St CERVIA.




George.

[Patternmaker]

I bow to your superior knowledge Greg I was only 22" out, must have a large displacement. At the end of day I'm just a humble model maker who is attemting to build a 10V steam engine, thanks Guys for all your constructive comments.

[HS93 (RIP)]

Gust go for a buggy gear box cheap and work well  http://www.mainsteam.co.uk/gearboxes.htm  this is one with a brass cover, they are cheap and will go from forward to reverse while still running at a few hundred revs so you can set a tick over that the engine wont stop at then change gear then bring revs up they are about £29 there where two cheap on ebay new unused last week.

Peter

[ooyah/2]

Patternmaker,
Don't be discouraged, go ahead with your engine build,there are those on the Forum who will give plenty of advice but have never built an engine before.
As Peter says you could use a gear box and set the engine at tick over which would allow you to reverse but not to stop.
Why not continue with the Stevenson Link and then set the engine at tick over so that you can reduce the steam into the engine to slow it down.
Put a servo on the reversing lever and then quickly flip over into reverse while the engine is still running and then away you go, so you are controlling the speed of the engine via your steam valve, but you still can't stop.
There is a book  Building a Vertical Steam Engine http://www.teepublishing.co.uk/search.php from Tee Publishing if you don't have it already.
This is an update on E. Westbury's book of the same name, I bought one years ago and have found it excellent

Can I suggest that when you get to making the reverse gear that you don't use all the fiddly bits of rod for the link rods and make them from brass or steel strip,
see pic of my 10V with reverse gear, I also make them like this on D10s, it's so much easier and more like the real thing.



George.

[ooyah/2]

Patternmaker,
I thought that this link would take you directly to the book.
Use the link and then click on Engineering in Miniature and then type in the title, it's listed at £6.95 + post.
George,

[Patternmaker]

Thank you George, you comments are very much appreciated, nothing will discourage me from building my engine, started machining the cylinder today.

Regards Mick

[gondolier88]

... must have a large displacement. At the end of day I'm just a humble model maker who is attemting to build a 10V steam engine, thanks Guys for all your constructive comments.

Yes it has a good displacement- though I am also using a lightweight watertube boiler, and don't forget that with the 10V, just like the D10, you won't be using the cast baseplate that the engine bedplate sits on- the bearers in the boat will take it's place, further reducing weight.

The suggestion to use a reversing gearbox is a good one, especially as they are easily replaced and a proven item.

You haven't told us what vessel your engine is going to grace.....

Greg

[Patternmaker]

Yes it has a good displacement- though I am also using a lightweight watertube boiler, and don't forget that with the 10V, just like the D10, you won't be using the cast baseplate that the engine bedplate sits on- the bearers in the boat will take it's place, further reducing weight.

The suggestion to use a reversing gearbox is a good one, especially as they are easily replaced and a proven item.

You haven't told us what vessel your engine is going to grace.....

Greg

You will be saving 0.64 kg less engine bearers, I will probably build a Paddle Steamer for my 10V

How is your D10 and pinnace coming on, be very interested to see some pictures.

Mick

[gondolier88]

Hi Mick,

That must be a large paddle steamer- I look forward to seeing this!

You can see progress upto a few weeks ago on my Pinnace here- www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=22006.50.

I desperately need to take some more pics as there has been quite a lot of progress since- though the 10 hasn't had much work on it recently, other things have just got in the way.

Greg

[Patternmaker]

If I build it will be the Medway Queen, been on her many times in the past, also her association with Dunkirk, I am also considering a scratch built Tug.

How far have you got with the D10

Mick

[gondolier88]

Fantastic- she's a beautiful paddler- and you might have her finished before the real one!!!

A sensible question regarding the D10, but I'm afraid I have to be a little vague- you see I am trying to make the pinnace as technically correct as I can, and I want to have a true small marine steam engine in it- while the D10 is good looking, a small marine model it is not. So I am making a new bedplate for it- I had made one in brass, but it flexed on soldering so I'm making a new one out of 3mm steel. I have machined both standards, pistons and cylinder covers, and had done both cylinders, but knackered one up so I'm yet to machine it's replacement. The connecting rods are part machined. I keep having a peek in the drawer it's kept in and wishing there were more hours in the day!

I can't be entirely sure as to where I am in the build until I have the boat restored and the boiler made and then I know exactly how it needs to be installed in the boat.

You can see some progress here- www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=21618.0

Stuarts are very nice engines- but don't think the design is perfect, it's not. However, also don't think it's hard to improve the design, it isn't, and you can have fun and learn a lot along the way.

Greg

[flashtwo]

Hi Mick,

I've built the D10 and its reversing gear from castings and it is being used on my experimental boat the "Vital Byte" which uses a flash (or more accurately monotube) boiler (see the flash steam control thread).

The boat has 72lb displacement, 60inch length and 5 inch prop. Under full power it can easily flip between ahead and astern providing the timing has been set correctly.

I agree with OOYAH/2 - don't waste time with the reversing links as in the original drawing - they may look good in the glass case, but they are not well engineered.

I removed the original  drain valves since, with the monotube boiler and no throttle valve, the boiler and engine warm up together . A conventional boiler is raised to pressure and then the throttle valve is opened and the steam hits the cold engine causing condensation in which case you need to drain the engine.

I have fitted small drain-type valves to the cylinder covers to enable oil to be injected after a days steaming in order to prevent the internals from rusting.

You could buy another set of 10V castings and the D10 sole (base?) plate separately if you wish to convert to building the D10 - see Stuart's website under spares.

The interest shown by the public at the lakeside makes all the effort worth while.


Enjoy the experience.

Ian