Topic: Swastika ban (Read 7248 times)

Jonty · « **on:** January 30, 2007, 08:57:26 pm »

Just got back from a short trip to India. The papers there were making a great fuss about the fact that Germany apparently intends to use its EU presidency to push for a complete ban on any representation of the swastika.

This has the Hindus up in arms as it was an auspicious symbol for them long before Herr Hitler misappropriated it. The word comes from svasti, the Sanskrit for wellbeing or prosperity. In India you often see swastikas on houses, temples, trucks, and so on.

We'll be less affected than the aircraft modellers, but it still means that you could not have a swastika on the deck of your Bismarck or on the ensign of a U-boat.

So write to your MPs before we have this ridiculous bit of German guilt inflicted on us.

dougal99 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2007, 09:02:49 pm »

Jonty

At the Dortmund show last year all the WWII model German ships had swastikas. They were just very poorly covered with thin paper or tape for display purposes.

Mind you knowing how enthusiastic we are in this country at enforcing the outpourings of Brussels perhaps now is the time to worry

Doug

Bunkerbarge · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2007, 09:36:59 pm »

Isn't it strange that this was all as a result of a German government trying to impose its will on the rest of the world and thier way of dealing with it now is to do exactly the same!!

Some people really do not learn, and it is the lessons from the Second World War that should be learned and not hidden.

sheerline · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2007, 10:08:05 pm »

Bluddy pc again!! Last year a friend of mine was sailing his new Type2 U-Boat on his local pond in London when along came three orthodox Jewis gentlemen. Sudden embarrasment overcame him when they stopped to look at his sub because there ,proudly fluttering abaft the tower was a Swastika flag. They were not in the slightest bit phased by its presence and indeed commented on what a fine model it was and quizzed him about its construction and operating characteristics.
I fully sympathise with those who are still alive who experienced the horrors that flag represented and I would feel guilty myself if I were aware of their presence whilst it was erected on my own boat and would feel inclined to remove it. However, I think most of the post war generations, although aware of its implications, take the view that it is past history and would only place this emblem on a model for historical authentictity. Do the powers that be, next ban models of anything created by the Nazi regime which were designed to overthrow and kill people. Taking pc to its logical conclusion that would be the next step and I jest not!! I think the western world has indeed gone stark staring bonkers!! >:(

Ghost in the shell · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2007, 10:31:23 pm »

i can imagine a large 5x3 ft flag being illegal, but a small 1" long 1/72 flag for a Uboat or a 1/200th for the aeronaut, I very much doubt it will have that much of an impact on the model. someone who builds a model does so for authenticity NOT political means.

even my lil PT boat when its done may well be flying the kreigsmarine flag or national ensign of Germany, not sure which atm

sheerline · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2007, 11:36:04 pm »

If taken to its logical conclusion, perhaps these goons at the top might start looking at our own history and the horrors perpetrated by our own worldwide........ would it eventually mean the banning of our own flag? Just because we are now apparently 'enlightened and civilised' does not rub out our dark and distant past. Perhaps the goons would argue how far back we should look and exclude anything after the Crimean war! >:(

RickF · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2007, 12:23:04 am »

If I remember correctly, from the days when I used to make model aircraft forty years ago, it has been illegal to display a swastika in Germany since the end of the war. The decals in kits used to come in two sorts - those for export to Germany and those for the rest of the world.

Rick

Paxton · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:00:09 am »

Interesting discussion. Not long ago I was in Berlin and visited the city museum. It has WW II aircraft as well as 1940's locomotives, all of which are sporting swastikas. I think the PC folks have to calm down and differentiate between skin heads who have adopted the swastika because they have no capacity for original thought, and those who are depicting historical fact when building an accurate model. Shoving the symbol into the closet will not make it go away.

White Ensign · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:52:32 am »

O.K.- seems that it`s now up to me to bring some light into the dark.
The Swastika is also not even a ensihn in India, it`s one which you will find in Norway as well and has some celtic or normannic base.
In Germany it is forbidden to show the "Swastika in publicity". With the exception for an historic artefact (i.e. on movies or historic exhibitions).
Though, any model- shown on a show, does not match (depending on the law) as an "historic artefact".
All the modelers I know, which do models of this period (no matter if boats or planes and trucks) have nothing in common with any political statement, which will be assumed behind the swastika and the Third Reich. For them it`s just an detail on a model, nothing else. But regarding to the law it is forbidden.
On one of the biggest shows in germany we had (about three or four years ago) who made some really excellent boats.... but the all had shown the swastika. Somebody felt embarassed and made a photograph of it, went to the police and left a claim.
When he returned home, police was waiting beside his house and seized his models. He had no chance for return, they all had been scraped and he got a penalty of 1500 Euros as well as 20 hours social work.
Now you may ask yourself- what`s that all about?
To be honest: We don`t have learned to live with that part of our history and our politicians think that it is helpfull, whenever somebody is claiming about that part of german history, that an ashamed behaviour which is nothing as a mixture between helplessness and ignorance might lead to some improvement.
Whenever somebody is claiming, they feel that they have to build another monument, but this does not keep any fascistic nerds from learning from these mistakes.
I often read in a several topics your anger about some laws in the UK, my mate in Kent and me often use to talk about it- but as I often had mentioned before: IT DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE PEOPLE, IT DEPENDS ON THE STUPIDITY OF THE LAW!!!!

You can not claim, to be politically correct- by stopping any discussion with law and order. And our politicians think they can do so.
And who wants to blame the crimes of this regime to the people of today, not even my father served in the army- he was a boy age 9 when the war was over.

Hope this was out of any information for you,
Jörg

Roger in France · « **Reply #9 on:** January 31, 2007, 07:06:22 am »

I think you folks should all calm down and not start tilting at some vague rumour of what someone somewhere repeated from something he read which was probably a misstatement in any case.

It is a little like the fallacy of the EU and straight bananas....that was nonsense made up by a journalist who got paid for writing a silly criticism of an EU description of how the size of a banana (for commercial purposes) should be determined. i.e. the straight length is the size not the curved length. The journalist and the newspaper which published his story had their own political agenda.

When we know what the proposal actually is and can launch a well argued protest that addresses the facts and not the exaggerated rumour you will get my support.

Extremism is not effectually curbed by counter-extremism.

Roger in France.

John W E · « **Reply #10 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:00:46 am »

Hi All,

My twopennies worth....

Does the Swastika not belong in history? along with other artifacts - they all write a page in history - what the Politicians would like to do and what they can do are two different things. What they tend to forget HISTORY IS THE ONLY ROADMAP THE WORLD HAS if we try and put every event that has happened in history and lock it away never to be opened in time we would follow the same roads we have been down and fall into the same pit as where we have been many years ago.

A flag/emblem on any model whether it be Swastika, the Rising Sun, Stars and Strips, Hammer and Sickle or the Union Jack - doesnt state that the person who owns the model is a Fascist and wants to take over the world or do mankind any harm - now does it?

All the flag is doing is completing the model and putting it in its place in history for the onlookers to look upon the model or as a reminder to them of what part of history it came from. What the politicians & the rest of us today cannot do is feel the pain of the byegone years and what history does is help us understand that pain.

Aye
John E
BLUEBIRD

sheerline · « **Reply #11 on:** January 31, 2007, 09:19:36 am »

You are quite right Roger, we will have to watch this space. The problem is that we have leaked documents and rumour on a daily basis which are immediately dismissed by our politicians but often, somewhere down the road, are found to be factual. I am afraid that having been bombarded by this pc rubbish over recent years, many of us have adopted the 'here we go again' frame of mind and nothing surprises us.

White Ensign · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2007, 10:10:29 am »

... with the Eurocrats in Brussel you have to be prepared for everything.....

In Germany we have a joke about the parliament in Brussel:
The junkyard of deselected politicians. They will be send to Brussel, for not harming their countries anymore.

Jörg

anmo · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2007, 10:12:20 am »

I'll start by saying that Germany is one of my favourite places, I visit the place several times most years, and can honestly say that some of my best friends are Germans and Austrians. It has to be said though, that while the vast majority of inhabitants in both those Countries have little interest in certain aspects of their history that continue to hold the attention of a great many people elsewhere in the world, especially their fellow Europeans, and as a result feel very little shame or guilt for events that in most cases took place long before they were born, there exists a sizable minority with rather different attitudes. I've met Germans, both young and old, who in addition to patting young children on the head and helping old ladies to cross busy roads, honestly believe that their Country was robbed of victory in WW2. They probably think that it would have been fairer to have gone to extra time, to decide the whole thing on a penalty shoot-out. Successive German governments have had a real problem with this kind of thing. They are trying to deal with it, and they deserve our help and sympathy, though I'm quite certain that it will backfire on them rather seriously if they try to extend current domestic legislation beyond their own borders.

sheerline · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2007, 11:02:43 am »

I too have many friends in Germany and have spent a little time working there particularly around Rheinfelden down on the Swiss border. The found the people very welcoming, likeable and affable and could not help drawing comparisons with the uk. I visited many ordinary peoples homes and met old and young alike and was surprised how alike the Germans and British are in many ways, so much so that I felt quite at home a lot of the time.
I have never run up against any bitterness and have been made welcome everywhere I have been.
One of my friends said to me "I wish people would forget the war and stop keep going on about it.. it's past and it was before our time". My response was " while there are still people alive, who lived through it, still cry themselves to sleep at night and suffer the loss of loved ones, we cannot relegate it completely to the history books"
Nice people and country..........Jorg, your countrymen are ok in my book!

White Ensign · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2007, 11:20:29 am »

Sheerline- thanks a lot.... so do I with my mates in the UK. Minimum once a year I am in the UK and never heard any claim. I found out as well that there are lots of things in common. Any way, I think that this discussion will just lead to nuffink- we have to wait and see.

... now I have to go back to one of my favourite sayings:

What had happened is past- if you keep your look on the past, you will not have the focus for your tomorrow.

Jörg

RickF · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2007, 12:24:23 pm »

George Santayana (1863 – 1952), a Spanish philosopher, essayist, poet, and novelist once said that “those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.”

It has never ceased to amaze me that the same race of people that gave us Beethoven, Shakespeare, Confucius and thousands of other geniuses of various degrees also gave us Auschwitz, Genghis Khan, Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler.

Yes, we have to look forward, but always with a backward glance over our shoulder at our own mistakes and those of others.

Rick

FullLeatherJacket · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2007, 12:33:55 pm »

Personally I can't accept that sticking a swastika on a scale model of a WW2 German fighting machine is grounds to cause offence to any reasonable person; certainly not to the point of legislation against it. Sledgehammers and nuts pale into insignificance........

Surely then it would make equal sense to ban RAF roundels or Yankee stars on models of Allied fighting machines on the grounds that it reminds the population of Germany that they came second and that somehow "we" English are still gloating about it 60 years afterwards. Of course it's rubbish.

Sometimes it seems that common sense flew out of the window when the PC crowd invented "human rights". Granted we should all be sensitive to others' feelings etc, but this goes beyond reason. Let's hope it's just a wind-up.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2007, 01:05:53 pm »

I'm not sure that this discussion serves any useful purpose. Our opinions will have no impact on the law in Germany. Lots of countries have laws which we might not agree with but that's the way it is. This country has laws I don't agree with too but I can have a margingal influence on them through the ballot box as no doubt Jörg can also do in Germany.

In the meantime we might heed John Cleese's immortal words (if not his actions) and DON'T MENTION THE WAR!

flybobby · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2007, 03:35:05 pm »

The world has gone mad ::)

bigH · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:05:54 pm »

I cannot see the sense in all this, the 'Swastika' is a symbol that has been used by nearly every country in the world as a 'RELIGOUS' symbol and as decoration. The only difference is all the ones I have seen are right facing, ( that is spinning clockwise ) while Hitler designed his to face left. Does this mean that in germany ( sic; EU ) that it will be allright to fly it back to front?????????

Shipmate60 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:12:36 pm »

But now we live in an "enlightened" and apologist western world.
We apologise for slavery, taking over Australia and the US, the list goes on.
Why do we attempt to put todays values on a totally different world.
Whatever happened to the "Right of Conquest", whether right or wrong.
PC is totally unacceptable to myself, it is jumped up twerps trying to tell other cultures what they will object to.
Christmas for instance in a Christian Country.
Whatever happened to the rights of the indigenous population.

OUCH, sorry fell off my soapbox

Bob

Ghost in the shell · « **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:40:52 pm »

the christmas ban ACTUALLY OFFENDED SOME MUSLIMS and the one imam states "the ban on christmas is propostorous, this is a christian celebration in a christian country"

what next, ban the japanese hinomaru radiant sun emblem (the spot with the arms) because of "war crimes" of japan?

why not rewrite history whilst you're at it
"yeah hitler never rose to power, japan never bombed pearl harbour and america didnt nuke hiroshima and negasaki, it was all a dream"

yeah, right!

chromedome · « **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2007, 07:31:18 pm »

Aye and England never one the World Cup either!!

chromedome

anmo · « **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2007, 07:41:26 pm »

Quote from: chromedome on January 31, 2007, 07:31:18 pm

Aye and England never one the World Cup either!!

chromedome

You've got an exceptionally good memory.

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Author Topic: Swastika ban (Read 7248 times)

Bunkerbarge

Roger in France

FullLeatherJacket

flybobby

bigH